Nippon Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Let's be fair, it has started already, The first major update is upon us and already the PTS is full of threads and Posts about classes being nerfed... This will never ever end until PVP is Separated entirely from PVE gameplay... It has been seen over and over and over again in Countless MMO's, whne you try to balance PVE builds in PVP to play against each other, it just does not work and something either ends up being useless is PVP and awesome in PVP, or vice versa.... Personally I don't PVP a great deal, I do it to fill a gap now and again, but what makes me angry is classes getting nerfed or OPed in PVE because of changes being made to accommodate PVP... Dev's please get a clue... That system does not work, It has been proven to not work in other MMO's, and you are going to spend the next 2-3 years, constantly tinkering the classes so they can compete against each other in PVP, and be viable in PVE...You will never find balance and something will always be the FOTM. Please for the love of God, just create a separate PVP skill tree for each class, test it, and then leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaphik Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Where has it not worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippon Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Where has it not worked? Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ?? Edited March 22, 2012 by Nippon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasgallant Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ?? this game has both pvp and pve parts to it. they will not be seperated at all. and bioware must if they want to continue to keep the game going find a decent balance to pvp and pve. yes people who pve dont complain about healing to much or to much damage..but if you think about it..in a round about way..some do.. there have been numerous posts about people saying the game is to easy, they level to fast. they get to end game to quickly.. all of those things can be fixed a bit by lowering damage or healing rates. so ya.. healing and damage balances are needed to make everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenjaminminU Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I enjoy both PvP and PvE, however when i do PvE i can defeat elites which are a level above me, yet in warzones i can get defeated by a much lower level ranged class. I am a jedi sentinel combat tree. I really hate how people decide to have flavour of the month classes since thats all we'll see in PvP, but then again if the sith empire is going to go for marauders then it should be more fun in PvP on republic side as i can effortlessly slaughter them before they have mastered their class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forceconduit Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 It's not working here, in this game, right now. Example: concealment operatives. They were hit with a major nerf in the last patch, and are getting nerfed again. This will effect there already poor sustained dps. Assassin's bring more utility and better sustained dps than a concealment ops. Concealment ops are a one trick pony that is good only in a pvp environment. Why bring a concealment ops over an assassin for end game content when they can do better at it and have more utility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melacon Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) It never works, no matter what anyone says. WoW completely redesigns classes every year and the same thing happens, fotm characters and comps for arenas. There is always one class over played and one class way under represented.... It should be two different systems, its much easier to just balance a pve encounter around player skills than balance player skills. Instead they have to fight with talent trees, then consumables, then encounters, oh wait, now we have to look at stats (Surge = PVP nerf) oh crap, now this class is completely useless and will not be brought on Ops unless they are a healer (See scoundrels/Ops) I pvp fairly often in this game, mostly because there is nothing else to do, and I hate alts, I'm just glad I play a GS and no one cries to nerf me...yet....but they will in 1.2, guarantee that. It's not that it's impossible, just takes A LOT of work vice making two rulesets. Edited March 22, 2012 by Melacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkopczak Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 yeah of course I support it. It woul be really borring if I could only PvP or PvE in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Let's be fair, it has started already, The first major update is upon us and already the PTS is full of threads and Posts about classes being nerfed...To answer the title's question: yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ??No, I've seen people saying that about PVE as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAmedeo Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) this game has both pvp and pve parts to it. they will not be seperated at all. and bioware must if they want to continue to keep the game going find a decent balance to pvp and pve. Have you noticed the Expert stat on gear? Have you noticed that in 1.2 the difference between PvP and PvE gear is intentionily designed to separate the two even more. Its as if they want the game to be split in two. PvPers over here, PvE'ers over there. Please do not mingle. Edited March 22, 2012 by AAmedeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMornard Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 No, I wish PVP would go away completely forever. It's the cause of 99% of the whining and crying on the boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ?? It would happen with PvE when damage meters came in, it's just in PvP it's more noticable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melacon Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Have you noticed the Expert stat on gear? Have you noticed that in 1.2 the difference between PvP and PvE gear is intentionily designed to separate the two even more. Its as if they want the game to be split in two. PvPers over here, PvE'ers over there. Please do not mingle. Actually it only separates one of them.....the War Hero gear isn't that much worse than the Raid gear therefore you can easily raid in pvp gear but with the change in expertise you can't pvp in raid gear.....funny how it worked out this time lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ?? Have you been ignoring the threads discussing how weak some of the tanking classes are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elderhound Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I like both PVE and PVP, Why not just have something in the game to where you have a PVE skill tree and a separate PVP skilltree for your class? For example I am a guardian tank spec. let me have a separate PVP skill tree that is balanced with other classes but a skill tree designed for pvp different from the PVE regular skill tree, and will only be useful during pvp??? just a idea. Idk if this has been brought up before or not but thats how i feel. Problem settled? Edited March 22, 2012 by Elderhound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasgallant Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Go take a look at the 2500 post, Sorc thread in the PTS, or the Trooper thread, or the BH thread..!!! Those changes are because of PVP. Because i cant see one single PVEer complaining that a class heals to much, or DPS's to much ?? this game has both pvp and pve parts to it. they will not be seperated at all. and bioware must if they want to continue to keep the game going find a decent balance to pvp and pve. yes people who pve dont complain about healing to much or to much damage..but if you think about it..in a round about way..some do.. there have been numerous posts about people saying the game is to easy, they level to fast. they get to end game to quickly.. all of those things can be fixed a bit by lowering damage or healing rates. so ya.. healing and damage balances are needed to make everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essell Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I have to say, keeping the game as it is, but having two skills trees / stat sets, sounds like a smart move. Sounds like it would over complicate it, but I know what Nippon is talking about. This might actually be simpler than the constant nip and tuck trying to balance an eight person see-saw. I saw City of Heroes get torn apart when they added PVP, as they tweak and changed the classes until it was like a horrible Frankenstein parody version of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippon Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Have you been ignoring the threads discussing how weak some of the tanking classes are? TBH I play a JK Guardian, I dont believe any tank class is weak, Players just dont stat them correctly, Getting your 5 piece Columi is the worst thing a Tank can use to tank with, It stacks defence, and players simply do not really look at what the stats do... You need SC and AC.....If your stacking defence, your gonna suck. My guard All Columi pieces replaced with daily or 25 mod/enhancements 24.2 Defence 45.7 Shield Chance 47.3 Absorption I have no issues tanking anything in the game...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippon Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 I have to say, keeping the game as it is, but having two skills trees / stat sets, sounds like a smart move. Sounds like it would over complicate it, but I know what Nippon is talking about. This might actually be simpler than the constant nip and tuck trying to balance an eight person see-saw. I saw City of Heroes get torn apart when they added PVP, as they tweak and changed the classes until it was like a horrible Frankenstein parody version of itself. Exactly my point my friend... Lets be honest, you dont need Armour to PVP, you dont need trinket's...If every player was forced to PVP in there pants...What happens...Stats are equalized !! If the stats are equaled, and the Tree is balanced...You have fair competitive PVP. And can then set the PVE trees to accommodate PVE content without tinkering to suit PVP..which inevitably, unbalances PVP. Its a vicious circle ladies and gentleman...and only player request's will get it changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollie Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 OP is correct. PvP and PvE should never be in the same game, because PvPers always cause PvE nerfs. Like someone said, no PvEer complains about another class dpsing too much or healing too much, it's always the PvPers who cause nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Like someone said, no PvEer complains about another class dpsing too much or healing too much, it's always the PvPers who cause nerfs. Er... yes they do. It's just in games with PvP it's usually mentioned there first (because PvP crystalises issues into sharp focus by it's very nature, something PvE doesn't do as harshly execpt at the very hight of min/max raiding usually). Did you never hear the PvE complainst in WoW over racials (there were PvP complaints over the same thing too of couse, but there was plenty of PvE issues too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippon Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) OP is correct. PvP and PvE should never be in the same game, because PvPers always cause PvE nerfs. Like someone said, no PvEer complains about another class dpsing too much or healing too much, it's always the PvPers who cause nerfs. We'll Im not saying to keep them, separate as in " they are over there, and we are over here" Just separate the trees....Have a 4th tree that is PVP only, make it highlight the Classes strength's but keep balance with other classes. that way they can make PVE changes to skill trees and separate changes to PVP skill tree without conflict's between the 2 of them.. At present any PVE change will effect PVP, and vice versa. That need's to stop now, before it gets into a constant, patch class tinkering merry go round. As an example, Trooper and BH have had Grav round and Tracer missile nerfed slightly, Was it making them OP in PVE.... not really...Was it an I win button in PVP, not so much, but with a few BH/Troopers spamming it on Players, it caused a problem. The nerf is because of PVP, a nerf that in some respects was needed.....But with it, has affected PVE builds for no real reason. Edited March 22, 2012 by Nippon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmc Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 OP is correct. PvP and PvE should never be in the same game, because PvPers always cause PvE nerfs.If they decide to fix this and remove PvE from the game, I would ask that they just remove the raiding/grouping stuff and leave the solo content in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemnon Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think that either: 1. PvP should be like some dreamworld outside of the actual gameworld where everyone magically has the same stats and level like GW2. 2. You should have to raid for the best gear to PvP. Seriously, you don't become magically stronger against playable races without becoming stronger against other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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