The Myth of the SW:ToR Story; No it can't support an MMO.

[simP_]

At the moment "story" is supporting the entire game. And I don't mean in a good way.

 

"Endgame" and the state its in is barely ever mentioned on podcasts or by my friends. It's a painful and embarrassing subject like so many others we just don't want to mention.

 

At the moment the only thing I really do "endgame" is alt's. I level through for class story then more or less dump them, much like a discarded comic.

 

I'm just churning out alts as I go through BW's mmo story. But something is missing. I don't know if BW haven't left enough room for other peoples stories or what but this mmo is definitely starting to lack that certain something that makes mmo's a pleasure.

 

After playing Swtor since launch my pleasure meter is at an all time low and I've filled my plate with lashings of story.

 

Who else is already skipping story on their 15th alt?

 

I made 2x imp 50's, and 3x republic 50's, on my 2nd and 3rd republic alt, I skipped most of the story.

 

On everything but my first toon, I skipped all the side quests, since they're exactly the same.

 

Republic class story line is exactly the same, everyone is a traitor to the imp's, disarm explosives, meditate for someone, save the galaxy.

 

This game is a huge bore, since the end game can be successfully tackled in 2 weeks, (all of the end game), there's nothing to do. I'm back to playing a good MMO with so much end game content I haven't done it all, even after for playing 7+ years. (and i'm not talking about WoW)

Edited March 22, 2012 by simP_

[RodneyMmKay]

So I'm suppose to pay MONTHLY for the story alone? Oh no no no, the class story lines are great, But that's not what an MMO is suppose to be all about.

 

Story mode should = Single player game that I spend money on ONCE.

 

I'm only on my third alt at the moment and I don't want to be most of the time, I know I only enjoy actually playing a sorcerer/sage but I'm bored and well.. seems like that's just what you're suppose to do in this game. Altoholics must love it, I don't. I feel forced into playing classes where I dislike the mechanics and the actual play style but I'm doing it because... Legacy, boredom already, and the fact that I bought a new computer to play this game.

 

The stories will get you hooked... but endgame is what keeps people playing/paying.

 

I really dislike the idea of logging in 6 months from now with a roster full of 50's that I can't even find a real purpose to log in on anymore.

 

^this 100%^

 

There is no challenge to overcome. There is nothing that requires real skill or effort. It's just level the next alt.

[Pathlight-]

^this 100%^

 

There is no challenge to overcome. There is nothing that requires real skill or effort. It's just level the next alt.

 

 

Couldn't agree more unfortunately which is why I quit. SWTOR was my first MMO and I guess I was expecting too much. When I thought MMO I thought Elder Scrolls times a thousand with a great community, open world pvp that would affect the war and the world, player cities. Unfortunately all we got is a glorified single player game. As a SW and BW fan I have to admit theat I'm pretty disappointed.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Pathlight-

[Talizzar]

The choices you make in the story line have absolutely no in game meaning in a positive or negative way other than your light and dark choices. Big deal.

 

I could have answered Kill everyone I see and the results are the same as if I saved everyone.

 

The class story lines were well done but you have no real control of the outcome.

[Zeusor]

At the moment "story" is supporting the entire game. And I don't mean in a good way.

 

"Endgame" and the state its in is barely ever mentioned on podcasts or by my friends. It's a painful and embarrassing subject like so many others we just don't want to mention.

 

At the moment the only thing I really do "endgame" is alt's. I level through for class story then more or less dump them, much like a discarded comic.

 

I'm just churning out alts as I go through BW's mmo story. But something is missing. I don't know if BW haven't left enough room for other peoples stories or what but this mmo is definitely starting to lack that certain something that makes mmo's a pleasure.

 

After playing Swtor since launch my pleasure meter is at an all time low and I've filled my plate with lashings of story.

 

Who else is already skipping story on their 15th alt?

 

15 alts...

how about GET A JOB!

if you have that much time on your hands to play 15 alts then quite possibly you have no life and need a job, or a girlfriend/boyfriend or somethig to do with the rest of the 24 hrs in the day.

get a grip people....you need to "level" your real life first.

this game (yes it is a game, some of you find that hard to believe) comes second.

My gosh already people get a friggin life!

 

Heres a revelation....if it isnt fun DON'T DO IT!

QUIT

It may just motivate all of you to explore your real lives.

Or manifest one.

Something!

[illgot]

I played WoW for almost 4 years, I couldn't name any part of their story or lore.

 

It was a fun game with lots of different things to collect and FUN seasonal events (Halloween being the most fun). It's only real down fall was the utter lack of an appearance tab.

Edited March 22, 2012 by illgot

[Mamae]

I'm not religious, but the forums get very biblical at times, much wailing and nashing of teeth.

 

Its not the best game I have played, neither is it the worst, I play it a couple of hours a day when I can, sometimes more if I have the time. Its a cheap hobby compared to many others.

 

For a hundred down and 25 a month( NZ dollars ) I do not expect life altering events to occur, reading some of the posts here, it sounds like some are expecting the Rapture to happen and Luke SkyWalker to come down to earth on a beam of light.

 

Its a game, if your not happy say your piece and leave and when I say piece, it only has to be once, not 25 notes of 5 paragraphs each of woe is me /unsub.

[Godliness]

Nothing will ever be YOUR story unless you go out and write a book.

 

^actually, this^

 

Paper and pencil gaming might also suffice. But a computer game will always be "their" story. Even a supposedly open-ended game like Skyrim is essentially just playing several different alts (mage's college, warrior's guild, assassin's guild, thieve's guild, etc.).

[ryathal]

I played WoW for almost 4 years, I couldn't name any part of their story or lore.

 

It was a fun game with lots of different things to collect and FUN seasonal events (Halloween being the most fun). It's only real down fall was the utter lack of an appearance tab.

 

if you played for 4 years you must not have really ever tried to get into the story, there was a lot of it if you read even a little of the text.

[Cernow]

^actually, this^

 

Paper and pencil gaming might also suffice. But a computer game will always be "their" story. Even a supposedly open-ended game like Skyrim is essentially just playing several different alts (mage's college, warrior's guild, assassin's guild, thieve's guild, etc.).

 

Yes, but there is a middle ground where you can have a game with a storyline but also where player decisions and actions have consequences which actually alter the gameplay and indeed the game world persistantly. It requires some willingness (from devs as well as players) to think outside of the current constraints of the genre though.

 

Don't believe me? Well give me a budget of $200m and I'll show you

[MarikLaw]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

As opposed to virtually every other MMORPGs which have no story and make you feel like your personal story doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things? At least Bioware tried to make you, as an individual, feel special, instead of just you being one of the few billion generic "Chosen Ones" or just some grunt that is being taken along for the ride on a larger, grand story in which you have virtually no effect on the outcome.

 

I guess you wouldn't like games like Mass Effect, Fallout, or Elder Scrolls either as its not your story, its their story. Seriously, did you even think about your statement before you posted it? You're basically claiming that every RPG video game in existence isn't an RPG because its not your own personal hand-crafted story.

 

If you're really that upset about not having your own personal, fully customized story then I don't think video games are for you. Perhaps you should venture into the wonderful world of pen and paper roleplaying games, where the only limits are you imagination and the amount of paper you have available.

 

EDIT UPDATE: Also, to everyone complaining about the experience leveling an alt...have you ever played another MMO before? At least Bioware has crafted unique stories for each class that adds some flavour to your alt leveling experience. Frankly I've got a few toons on the go and not getting bored of any one of them, which I can't say about other MMOs where no matter what you do, the leveling experience is identical in feel and scope.

Edited March 22, 2012 by MarikLaw

[illgot]

if you played for 4 years you must not have really ever tried to get into the story, there was a lot of it if you read even a little of the text.

 

no I read novels and write for fun so a lot of in game stories I found were complete crap (like all the stuff in TOR).

 

I'm also not a fan of magic based fantasy.

 

WoW was fun because they didn't take themselves 100% serious.

 

TOR is boring because there is not a lot of content, they take themselves WAY too seriously, so much they can't even have fun with the game, and the stories for the most part are horrible.

[Godliness]

Yes, but there is a middle ground where you can have a game with a storyline but also where player decisions and actions have consequences which actually alter the gameplay and indeed the game world persistantly. It requires some willingness (from devs as well as players) to think outside of the current constraints of the genre though.

 

Don't believe me? Well give me a budget of $200m and I'll show you

 

Not middle ground. Just the potential for more pre-scripted things that are slightly better camouflaged.

 

But even a game like Warhammer or Guild Wars pales in comparison to actually creating something yourself in terms of ownership of story.

 

A video game will always be someone else's story.

[ryathal]

^actually, this^

 

Paper and pencil gaming might also suffice. But a computer game will always be "their" story. Even a supposedly open-ended game like Skyrim is essentially just playing several different alts (mage's college, warrior's guild, assassin's guild, thieve's guild, etc.).

 

but in skyrim you can do as much or as little of any of the story you want. and you can do those quests any way you want, for example i did all mage quests with no magic beyond what is required to solve the puzzles.

 

even then you don't have to do any of those, you could just wander around raiding dungeons, maybe help the occasional citizen, or murder an entire town and the game doesn't stop you.

[walnutstain]

I was amazed at the fact that i couldnt "friend" someone if they weren't the same affiliation as me, or even send them mail. Kind of cuts to the quick about community aspect. Cant send them a "/tell" or even see if they're on unless you log over to your same affiliation toon. I do not understand the point of that but it is what it is.

 

I was so proud when i crafted my 1st speeder, only yo find out that i couldnt even put it for sale. The economy is screwed until you get to that 40-45ish level. Otherwise you spend everything you make on training new skills and overpriced stims.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Star Wars junkie. Coming from Star Wars Galaxies, and loving that game all 7 of the years i played it, my expectations were pretty high. And i do like the game. It's just growing pains (i hope) and these in my opinion obvious contradictions and troubles will be corrected over time. Those animations, although sometimes tedious, are amazing! I'm sticking with it and hope others do too.

[MarikLaw]

but in skyrim you can do as much or as little of any of the story you want. and you can do those quests any way you want, for example i did all mage quests with no magic beyond what is required to solve the puzzles.

 

even then you don't have to do any of those, you could just wander around raiding dungeons, maybe help the occasional citizen, or murder an entire town and the game doesn't stop you.

 

Removing personal story, even if it isn't your own hand-crafted story, and traveling around to dungeon run and do menial boring side-quests that have no impact or bearing on your personal story or on your character. Sounds familiar.

 

Oh wait, it sounds familiar because you just described every other MMO in existence with that statement. If that is the case then perhaps a story-driven game like SWTOR is not right for you, perhaps you should go back to playing World of WarCraft instead.

[ryathal]

no I read novels and write for fun so a lot of in game stories I found were complete crap (like all the stuff in TOR).

 

I'm also not a fan of magic based fantasy.

 

WoW was fun because they didn't take themselves 100% serious.

 

TOR is boring because there is not a lot of content, they take themselves WAY too seriously, so much they can't even have fun with the game, and the stories for the most part are horrible.

 

i can't agree more with the seriousness part, wow at times went out of their way to do crazy things, and swtor goes out of its way to ensure there is nothing lackadaisical ever

[MarikLaw]

i can't agree more with the seriousness part, wow at times went out of their way to do crazy things, and swtor goes out of its way to ensure there is nothing lackadaisical ever

 

So what you guys are saying...is that you enjoyed Jar Jar Binks? Seriously, look at the movies, every time a Star Wars movie tries to do something lighthearted and comical it becomes a train-wreck that fans would rather just pretend never happened.

[eldelphia]

I like the stories a lot. They stop somewhat abruptly at 50 unfortunately but of course 50 won't stay 'endgame' because at some point the cap will go up.

 

What would be nice is to have more than one path to level. I think the starter worlds work well and I completely understand the class plot taking you from planet to planet but throw in a few alternative planets which aren't about the class plots. Where you can divert or hang out.

 

I actually love warzones and am looking forward to a new one but the current level 50 content won't entertain people for long. I think half of that issue is that Ilum just didn't work out. You don't feel like you're at war because you never really fight other players. I know they're rethinking Ilum but unless it becomes a hub for level 50s everyone is stuck on the fleet or levelling alts.

 

There's nothing wrong with levelling alts and I have 3 on the way up but that's not going to keep me happy forever.

 

In my opinion, the number of players per server is too restrictive. The fleets kinda function socially but they're never that busy. I understand that I'm on a quietish server but honestly, it doesn't feel alive. I'm used to servers where I encounter 700-4000 characters. Usually around the 2000 mark (FFXI).

 

I understand the separation of the Empire and Republic but I think it's gone too far. Maybe we shouldn't be able to easily interact but how are we going to get drawn into fighting each other if we're utterly unaware of them?

 

There should be more neutral territories. There should be places where both factions go and have a reason to go. Where we can trade effectively. I check out Nar Shaddaa's hutt cartel GTN but hardly anyone uses it. The issue is that once you're done with Nar Shaddaa's questlines you have no reason to return. At the level at which you hit Nar Shaddaa you're not enormously confident or interested in trading/crafting in most cases.

 

The ability to talk to fellow players (as opposed to characters) is important. So when your friend logs over to their imperial character, the ability to message them would be nice.

 

I would honestly love (even as a PVE'r) to get more heavily involved in going to war against the Imperials. It just doesn't exist.

 

I appreciate we're only a few months in and I'm not expecting a completely finished product. The fact we're in the 'intermission' does indicate that more story will come. That's great. But let us wander and explore a bit more. Let us interact more with other players and make it easier to. There is enough to do for those who just want a chatty singleplayer game.

 

I know instancing and faction division helps to keep things under control but in some cases, it would be great to have events where we're thrown together. Shared transportation, better use of Ilum. Why on earth are people even fighting over it anyway? It's a hell hole lol...

 

I'm enjoying it for now but if all that pops up is more of the same, I can see me being gone in 6 months. After the glory that is the story, the abrupt break and complete change in activity at 50 is tiresome.

[ryathal]

So what you guys are saying...is that you enjoyed Jar Jar Binks? Seriously, look at the movies, every time a Star Wars movie tries to do something lighthearted and comical it becomes a train-wreck that fans would rather just pretend never happened.

 

a little comic relief at the right moments is great, and i hate jar-jar a lot less than i used to, being serious all the time sucks, talented directors can manage this, Lucas not so much

[RodneyMmKay]

I like the stories a lot. They stop somewhat abruptly at 50 unfortunately but of course 50 won't stay 'endgame' because at some point the cap will go up.

 

What would be nice is to have more than one path to level. I think the starter worlds work well and I completely understand the class plot taking you from planet to planet but throw in a few alternative planets which aren't about the class plots. Where you can divert or hang out.

 

I actually love warzones and am looking forward to a new one but the current level 50 content won't entertain people for long. I think half of that issue is that Ilum just didn't work out. You don't feel like you're at war because you never really fight other players. I know they're rethinking Ilum but unless it becomes a hub for level 50s everyone is stuck on the fleet or levelling alts.

 

There's nothing wrong with levelling alts and I have 3 on the way up but that's not going to keep me happy forever.

 

In my opinion, the number of players per server is too restrictive. The fleets kinda function socially but they're never that busy. I understand that I'm on a quietish server but honestly, it doesn't feel alive. I'm used to servers where I encounter 700-4000 characters. Usually around the 2000 mark (FFXI).

 

I understand the separation of the Empire and Republic but I think it's gone too far. Maybe we shouldn't be able to easily interact but how are we going to get drawn into fighting each other if we're utterly unaware of them?

 

There should be more neutral territories. There should be places where both factions go and have a reason to go. Where we can trade effectively. I check out Nar Shaddaa's hutt cartel GTN but hardly anyone uses it. The issue is that once you're done with Nar Shaddaa's questlines you have no reason to return. At the level at which you hit Nar Shaddaa you're not enormously confident or interested in trading/crafting in most cases.

 

The ability to talk to fellow players (as opposed to characters) is important. So when your friend logs over to their imperial character, the ability to message them would be nice.

 

I would honestly love (even as a PVE'r) to get more heavily involved in going to war against the Imperials. It just doesn't exist.

 

I appreciate we're only a few months in and I'm not expecting a completely finished product. The fact we're in the 'intermission' does indicate that more story will come. That's great. But let us wander and explore a bit more. Let us interact more with other players and make it easier to. There is enough to do for those who just want a chatty singleplayer game.

 

I know instancing and faction division helps to keep things under control but in some cases, it would be great to have events where we're thrown together. Shared transportation, better use of Ilum. Why on earth are people even fighting over it anyway? It's a hell hole lol...

 

I'm enjoying it for now but if all that pops up is more of the same, I can see me being gone in 6 months. After the glory that is the story, the abrupt break and complete change in activity at 50 is tiresome.

 

I think you've hit on a few issues that definitely have an impact on leveling experience. Like mixing the zones better. However there is a rub in it. Because the story has been sooooo streamlined to take you from one place to another if one of those areas gets locked down by a faction you can be more or less screwed and level past the area rather than do the area. This is a by product of the stream lining of the mission sequence and story.

 

I would agree Illum falling apart on most severs has not helped end game. I think there are lots of reasons for it both in house and socially but the outcome is the same. No endgame.

 

I think I would be in the same boat as you. "The story" has worn off for me, and I'm finding fewer and fewer reasons to log on my toons. BW did really well in constructing a good leveling system (VO etc) but seem to have completely forgotten endgame or when they have done it just horribly failed. If the bugs don't get you down the endless face rolling will. I don't even know how but I've started missing Naxx. That can't be a good sign. Secret World or probably GW2 for me. I want the challenge. But I'm still crossing my fingers BW can pull this wreck of endgame out of the fire.

[MarikLaw]

a little comic relief at the right moments is great, and i hate jar-jar a lot less than i used to, being serious all the time sucks, talented directors can manage this, Lucas not so much

 

Funny because Empire is considered the best Star Wars movie ever made, was not directed by Lucas, and how much comedy was actually in it apart from somebody just saying something? Seriously, the movie was dark and all the comic relief was subtle and in the dialogue, which happens in SWTOR a fair deal (I've had my fair share of laughs at a good deal of the dialogue from my companions so far, dunno what you guys are missing).

 

Star Wars is not the universe for slapstick comedy, as evident from the ever-despised Jar Jar Binks. If you don't get subtle comedy than perhaps you should treat the Star Wars series as more of a hard drama than anything else.

[Lazzer]

Everything you talk about in there is about copying other games to appeal to the people who play end game in those other games.

 

BW Employee: "Hey I know, lets make a game with a unique leveling experience that will bring in casual players and people who don't normally play MMO's!"

 

EA Fat Cat: "But we need it to make money if you want to spend all this cash developing it. So how about we copy the end game from another currently successful MMO."

 

BW Employee: "Well I guess we could do that... But we'll have all these casual people who might not have a ton of patience nor time for that type of hardcore end game."

 

EA Fat Cat: "Well... Lets just make the end game easier so the casual's can complete it in one play session! Surely that will make everyone happy."

 

BW Employee: "Because we know how effective trying to make everyone happy is... LETS DO IT!"

 

And that was how SWTOR was born... (at least in my mind)

 

 

I think my objections come mainly from the fact that they choose the WoW end game model, being primarily and old school EQ1 player I'm used to (and miss in this game) travelling to specific locations for specific raids, having open world PvP on all of the time when playing on PvP servers with enemies hiding behind every rock.

 

I've never played a game where everything was so instanced with a portal location for each instance in one place.

 

The PvP in LoTRO had a lot wrong with it but it was far more fun than the warzones in TOR, when I PvP here I feel like I'm back playing Quake rocket arena/capture the flag. It feels like a mini game instead of part of the game.

[Lazzer]

That was actually a very interesting read thanks! I think for me I would have to disagree in principle solely based on the current condition of the game pre patch 1.2. Before going near any of the "goodies" they'd like to release. I'd like an actual functioning mmo first. One with an actual endgame, working pvp, access game to information, an economy that works (honestly one of the worst I've ever come across in an mmo and speaks volumes to me about BW priorities.) etc etc

 

Do you know how entertaining a story is that glitches on you when you try to do content? Thats right its not entertaining. It's annoying as hell. Death of a thousand bugs is how most end level content is going. I'd prefer a working mmo to the coolest story ever told!

 

I like some of the ideas you had but Flashpoints are more than enough leading up to pre-50 raiding. And they wont spread too much out just because that would go against their policy to make this game as easily accessible as possible to as many people as possible.

 

I'm sick of rolling alts being 90% of my game time. I remember when I used to actually have a main and stuff. And like....raid and stuff with him....

 

I agree with you, I think the difference in our opinions stems from the fact that you are looking at the bugs that need to fixed in the content that we do have and I am looking at the content and criticizing that.

 

I just find a lot of the endgame is place (as far as I am concerned) outside of the game itself, none of it is part of the game. The levelling should lead to the end game and PvP ect without missing a stride but it doesn't, it feels like getting to the end of a movie and the sequel is presented as a synopsis.

 

They have indeed created 2 games under 1 label, they have catered for those that want to run an RPG story, those that want to PvP and those that want to raid but completely overlooked the fact that this is a single game and there are a lot of people that want to play the game in it's entirety and they need a smooth transition into all of the other aspects of it.

[RodneyMmKay]

I'm not religious, but the forums get very biblical at times, much wailing and nashing of teeth.

 

Its not the best game I have played, neither is it the worst, I play it a couple of hours a day when I can, sometimes more if I have the time. Its a cheap hobby compared to many others.

 

For a hundred down and 25 a month( NZ dollars ) I do not expect life altering events to occur, reading some of the posts here, it sounds like some are expecting the Rapture to happen and Luke SkyWalker to come down to earth on a beam of light.

 

Its a game, if your not happy say your piece and leave and when I say piece, it only has to be once, not 25 notes of 5 paragraphs each of woe is me /unsub.

 

Good point. I think its more about just a simple question of I can only really do one mmo really well because of life and time restrictions so which mmo will it be? No venom or vitriol.

 

I think the general consensus is that this will forever be a "not-quite-mmo" mmo. Its a social single player game or something. But definitely has none of the working foundations to be an mmo. Like a working complex economy, challenging endgame (settle for working endgame) etc etc

 

It's just a question of how long I wait for endgame, economy, meaningful theory crafting etc to arrive. Or maybe it never will. They seem to want to give you some of what you want but make it as useless as possible. Third party dps logs etc

 

I think the question people are asking is will swtor ever become an mmo? Or just an alt orgy? I think swtor is great in a lot of ways. Its just it fails consistently in all the mmo areas. That worries me.

 

In short this game is just no fun if you like playing mmo's. It's well. Boring. Just deeply deeply dull. It's either bugged or dull.

 

This is me just thinking out loud. So feel free to disagree. For me it's not a revelation, its just I find myself not really invested in swtor even with all its bells and whistles and I don't know why. The only thing I've come up with is the sudden realization that all the things I enjoyed doing in every other mmo I don't enjoy in swtor.

 

And its not burn out. Been there, got past it.

 

I should love swtor with all the writing on the box. But after playing it since launch I can't believe a patch will decide if I carry on. I think its great if people like it or love it, just most of my friends in the same place as me all seem to be mmo players citing mmo reasons why they left. And I can't answer or argue any of their points.