Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[Zbus]

On my GS I dread OP's but i dont think they should recieve any further nerfs.Sure they kill me but thats what they are designed for I accept that concept. And really stealth can be seen a good distance away if you are looking for it and as a GS I am always looking for it.

 

On my vanguard tank spec I just ignore them most of the time sure they can kill me but it takes them forever and by the time I am dead reinforcements have arrived and make short wotk of them. And while i dont want them to be nerfed again I still dont think they need a gap closer they are pretty balanced now minus WZ's like Hutt Ball which pretty much only favors glow sticks.

[Foodaddy]

Stop whining! Juggs got their smash (only good attack) CD increased from 9 to 12s too AND our damage REDUCED by 10%

[Howbadisbad]

Stop whining! Juggs got their smash (only good attack) CD increased from 9 to 12s too AND our damage REDUCED by 10%

 

Don't juggs have a different DPS spec for sustained though?

[Keyran-Halcyon]

Yes I cant wait the LICK the tears of the faces of all the imp ops who troll light armor users such as the inq. classes.

 

This is why you guys are getting nerfed, you only ever target light armor users for fast easy kills because you can keep them down and stun locked as you do your thing and they have nothing to come at you with, and there is a million inqs out there who cried about this and this is why you are being nerfed.

 

If you werent greedy for EASY kills and always singling out inqs they would not have cried for nerfs.

 

I think someone is a little mad. Did someone piss in your cereal this morning??? Was it an Operative??

[Spyde]

I play a scoundrel with champion gear and a few battlemaster pieces.

 

When I open from stealth on equally geared players of ANY CLASS, at best my burst takes them down to 35-40%. This is with relic used plus warzone adrenal.

 

So those of you who claim that operatives/scoundrels kill you in a matter of two stun durations are simply vastly undergeared, or liars.

 

Cant take people from full health and take away..

 

60-65% of their HP before they can do anything..

 

since when was this a 1v1 game ?

 

 

Ops drops 60-65% of your health instantly.. then somone else randomly shooting finishes it..

[elorei]

There must be a lot of really bad players playing these classes on diff servers. On jekkjekktarr there are a few ops/scoundrels that are fearsome. One in particular, I will withhold his name, in case he preferes his anonymity, is a complete beast. He takes points alone, he ends matches with 350k+ damage and 220+ healing. Last match of civil war we played he had 66 kills and 0 deaths. I love having this guy on my team. He picks someone, and they are removed from the fight. This does not mean he kills them, all the time, but he makes them stop doing what they were doing (mostly he just kills them though, haha). And then he heals my smash bombing suicide butt for me.

 

On the flip side, there is an operative that is just as good, name also withheld, but instead of loving him, I hate hate hate him, in a friendly kind of way. This guy pees in my cheerios every time I see him. He doesn't always kill me, but he makes me stop doing what I was doing, every time, and sometimes more than just one person. Then he scoots off. He doesn't try that "ill restaleth and kill you with another backstab" crap, he restealths and then screws with us. He can keep us busy easily long enough for reinforcements to back him up. He also ends matches with over 100k heals but his damage is normally off the damn charts.

 

I don't know either spec these guys run, but both are effective as hell.

 

I have yet to play a match with either of them where they werent at least in the top 5 healers, and top 3 damage (well except that one horrible match we played where the other team was 6 full time healers...ughhh).

[QuiJonPed]

I think someone is a little mad. Did someone piss in your cereal this morning??? Was it an Operative??

 

No, it was a Sorc but I am sure an Operative put him up to it.

[Grapenut]

There must be a lot of really bad players playing these classes on diff servers. On jekkjekktarr there are a few ops/scoundrels that are fearsome. One in particular, I will withhold his name, in case he preferes his anonymity, is a complete beast. He takes points alone, he ends matches with 350k+ damage and 220+ healing. Last match of civil war we played he had 66 kills and 0 deaths.

 

LOL. Right. Superman? Really. Must keep his name anonymous. Why? Maybe he is hacking? I don't really see this as truthfull. Has he crack the 31/31/31 poiint build?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Grapenut

[Howbadisbad]

There must be a lot of really bad players playing these classes on diff servers. On jekkjekktarr there are a few ops/scoundrels that are fearsome. One in particular, I will withhold his name, in case he preferes his anonymity, is a complete beast. He takes points alone, he ends matches with 350k+ damage and 220+ healing. Last match of civil war we played he had 66 kills and 0 deaths. I love having this guy on my team. He picks someone, and they are removed from the fight. This does not mean he kills them, all the time, but he makes them stop doing what they were doing (mostly he just kills them though, haha). And then he heals my smash bombing suicide butt for me.

 

On the flip side, there is an operative that is just as good, name also withheld, but instead of loving him, I hate hate hate him, in a friendly kind of way. This guy pees in my cheerios every time I see him. He doesn't always kill me, but he makes me stop doing what I was doing, every time, and sometimes more than just one person. Then he scoots off. He doesn't try that "ill restaleth and kill you with another backstab" crap, he restealths and then screws with us. He can keep us busy easily long enough for reinforcements to back him up. He also ends matches with over 100k heals but his damage is normally off the damn charts.

 

I don't know either spec these guys run, but both are effective as hell.

 

I have yet to play a match with either of them where they werent at least in the top 5 healers, and top 3 damage (well except that one horrible match we played where the other team was 6 full time healers...ughhh).

 

The person you are talking about is just far more skilled than the players he is facing against.

 

If his skill with an Operative could be applied to any other class, he would be dominating you even harder.

[QuiJonPed]

There must be a lot of really bad players playing these classes on diff servers. On jekkjekktarr there are a few ops/scoundrels that are fearsome. One in particular, I will withhold his name, in case he preferes his anonymity, is a complete beast. He takes points alone, he ends matches with 350k+ damage and 220+ healing. Last match of civil war we played he had 66 kills and 0 deaths.

 

Wut? Please post a non photo shopped picture of this. I don't believe those stats for one second... nothing more than the typical anti-Operative trolling remarks you see all over the forum.

 

The damage and no healing, perhaps. The healing and no damage, yes certainly. Both together with 60 kills and 0 deaths? Yeah, right!

 

Let me guess, he picked up enemy players using his mind and tickled them till they **** Carebear *** too? I bet he then one shot the Heavy Armour tanks using HS without even breaking stealth too huh?

Edited March 22, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[Kyntari]

People will cry nerf until concealment Ops are completely broken and incapable of killing anything 1v1. BioWare may actually let it get to that point -- they've shown just where their priorities lie. These changes do not make sense, and I don't believe BW fully understands their consequences (hello reduced Acid Blade uptime anyone?). Ridiculous.

[Foodaddy]

Don't juggs have a different DPS spec for sustained though?

 

that would be marauders. We only have one worth spec, the lolsmash rage spec (Not complaining about that, just don't nerf my one spec)

[goulet]

juggs do have a more sustained dps spec, it just has more limitations in pvp then rage.

[Eyevan]

I think what is happening here is BW fault.

 

They made Ops/Scoundrels too strong for too long.

 

Now these Ops/Scoundrels feel that their original DPS output is where it should have stayed and anything less is class breaking.

 

I do agree with what BW is doing now. As it stands, Ops/Scoundrels are still putting out a bit too much damage in a relatively low amount of time. A little tweaking should put them right at par with where they should be and that is just what BW did.

 

And for you Ops/Scoundrels who are relying that heavily on your openers where if you don't kill someone after you open on them then its a lost cause... well then you do deserve to be killed. You aren't playing an Ops/Scoundrel, you are playing with a quarter of the class. Of course you are going to die.

[Shiroikage]

I think what is happening here is BW fault.

 

They made Ops/Scoundrels too strong for too long.

 

Now these Ops/Scoundrels feel that their original DPS output is where it should have stayed and anything less is class breaking.

 

I do agree with what BW is doing now. As it stands, Ops/Scoundrels are still putting out a bit too much damage in a relatively low amount of time. A little tweaking should put them right at par with where they should be and that is just what BW did.

 

And for you Ops/Scoundrels who are relying that heavily on your openers where if you don't kill someone after you open on them then its a lost cause... well then you do deserve to be killed. You aren't playing an Ops/Scoundrel, you are playing with a quarter of the class. Of course you are going to die.

 

 

Almost none of us Operatives want to rely on our openers. Do you think its even fun for us to even have to rely on a thing like that when you stay in combat for so long? NO

If you ask me they should make our opener Hidden strike a heavy dot with a 2-3" imobilze buf the other skills that DO NOT require stealth to use and give us a decent gap closer: a sprint or a shadowstep ability. Boost our shiled probe to a state that will actually make it usefull and thats it!

[Morticoccus]

So basically you are saying that you are a decent player with good skills and knowledge of the sorcerrer ahile the whole republic side of Tomb of Freedon Nadd si terribad at playing a sage. I think your claims just prove your stupidity and conceitedness which is trully beyond me.

 

I play on Tomb of Freedon Nadd and I see exactly the same amount of inq/consular spam on both sides.

 

They are more prevalent than the tracer missile spammers that everyone complains about.

 

The real issue here is that OPs/scoundrels were supposed to be hard counters to sorcs/sages, and since those are the most played classes in the game they get preferential treatment.

 

Then again, I shouldn't complain because my class gets (on the whole, the CD nerf to my AOE ability stings a bit in PvE) buffed, and sorcs/sages get nerfed as well.

 

So basically, for once BW is catering to me, it just sucks that my earlier main class gets nerfed into the ground.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Morticoccus

[elorei]

LOL. Right. Superman? Really. Must keep his name anonymous. Why? Maybe he is hacking? I don't really see this as truthfull. Has he crack the 31/31/31 poiint build?

 

Ill take screenshots of some match end score sheets, and black his name out, or hell, ask him if it's ok to make him famous on the forums and leave his name in.

 

I think its funny that you assume someone is hacking because they are better than you. I used to get that a lot playing CS1.6 when I was in CAL-I.

[Drakks]

The problem with ops/scoundrels isn't anything that is being nerfed, it's what it always is -- stealth. Stealth is ALWAYS a problem in pvp because it gives you the option to open however you want.. which is usually with attacks idiotic game designers put it that have bonuses from stealth, which common sense will tell you makes the class overly bursty and the FIRST class to be nerfed because no player enjoys being killed before they can fight back.

 

This is why it's totally fine for my guardian, right now, to sweep crit for 6.4k. You can see me coming, and there are very few nerf guardian posts. However, if an operative did it? That would be recorded, screenshot, and put up on 50 youtube posts all as proof they were overpowered.

 

You want to fix the class? Quit being thick-headed and do with stealth what smart games do: make it a short duration move (lasts 3-ish seconds) that is designed as an escape, as opposed to an offensive setup. Then balance the class without stealth. It's amazing how easy that makes things.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Drakks

[Morticoccus]

Ill take screenshots of some match end score sheets, and black his name out, or hell, ask him if it's ok to make him famous on the forums and leave his name in.

 

I think its funny that you assume someone is hacking because they are better than you. I used to get that a lot playing CS1.6 when I was in CAL-I.

 

I prefer to reserve judgment until I've seen someone actually helping my team. Any reasonably seasoned player can rack up medals.

[Ich_Bin]

Wow, for all of you who play an Operative and think 1.2 is fine, I have a question for you.

 

 

Do you play any other classes? Do you have anything else in the 50s?

 

I'm not the best PvPer in the world but I do fairly well with my Operative and I could say that 1.2 isn't going to nerf me too much.

 

 

However.

 

I also have a Marauder and a Mercenary. I do EXTREMELY well with them, so much so that my OP cannot even compare with how good the Merc and Ani-Marauder is in PvP. I destroy people.

 

Please do a fair comparison before judging the OP. If the OP is your only class in the 50s, you can't really understand what the OP has been through and what the OP will become in 1.2.

 

<--- unsubbed. Gl all.

 

Truth.

[Kyntari]

The problem with ops/scoundrels isn't anything that is being nerfed, it's what it always is -- stealth. Stealth is ALWAYS a problem in pvp because it gives you the option to open however you want.. which is usually with attacks idiotic game designers put it that have bonuses from stealth, which common sense will tell you makes the class overly bursty and the FIRST class to be nerfed because no player enjoys being killed before they can fight back.

 

This is why it's totally fine for my guardian, right now, to sweep crit for 6.4k. You can see me coming, and there are very few nerf guardian posts. However, if an operative did it? That would be recorded, screenshot, and put up on 50 youtube posts all as proof they were overpowered.

 

You want to fix the class? Quit being thick-headed and do with stealth what smart games do: make it a short duration move (lasts 3-ish seconds) that is designed as an escape, as opposed to an offensive setup. Then balance the class without stealth. It's amazing how easy that makes things.

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't see a complete stealth rework in the cards anytime in this game, ever. They went with the standard 'stealth only while out of combat and do ridiculous stealth opener, plus stuns, plus vanish every 2 mins' model. If I had to guess why, it's because that's what is most familiar to people -- even if it is very flawed.

 

I came from WAR where stealth worked a lot differently, and IMO better. Usable in combat, had a 1.5s cast time, castable on the move, easily interruptable with regular direct damage attacks. Stealth only lasted 30 sec, and had a 30 sec cooldown, which started AFTER leaving stealth. Opener didn't knock down, no vanish ... if you could manage to disengage and not get hit while casting stealth, that's how you 'vanished'

 

Of course, we had a move that ignored 100% armor from behind, so people just QQed about that instead, lulz

[Monkar]

If you pvp quite a bit and haven't figured out how to counter an operative then....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

 

 

you might be terrible.

 

 

Edit: For the sake of being constructive.

 

When he opens on you....do you have any defensive CDs? Oh you do? Use them.

When you stand up....do you have some sort of gap opener? Oh you do? Use them. If not...

When you stand up do you have a snare or stun? Oh I'm sure you do, use them.

Do you have an AoE or dot? Oh you do? prevent them from restealthing.

Do you have an absorb of something to reapply? oh you do? probably should do that.

 

Did you get 100->0 with 12k health by someone that outgears you? Oh you did? Go cry on the forums and exaggerate.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Monkar

[Morticoccus]

If you pvp quite a bit and haven't figured out how to counter an operative then....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

 

 

you might be terrible.

 

I totally agree, in fact I'd go so far as to say that if you *are* an operative and go for 1v1 kills instead of attacking someone that is already attacked by someone else you are pretty terrible.

 

OPs make incredible damage support, that's the iron truth.

 

But it still doesn't justify the nerf, because the nerf makes them only average at this role as well.

[Drakks]

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't see a complete stealth rework in the cards anytime in this game, ever. They went with the standard 'stealth only while out of combat and do ridiculous stealth opener, plus stuns, plus vanish every 2 mins' model. If I had to guess why, it's because that's what is most familiar to people -- even if it is very flawed.

 

I came from WAR where stealth worked a lot differently, and IMO better. Usable in combat, had a 1.5s cast time, castable on the move, easily interruptable with regular direct damage attacks. Stealth only lasted 30 sec, and had a 30 sec cooldown, which started AFTER leaving stealth. Opener didn't knock down, no vanish ... if you could manage to disengage and not get hit while casting stealth, that's how you 'vanished'

 

Of course, we had a move that ignored 100% armor from behind, so people just QQed about that instead, lulz

 

The problem is that data never supported Ops needing a nerf -- it was all "feel", and that feel stemmed from people getting hit from someone coming out of stealth, and being stuck in a CC chain until they were so low they didn't "feel" they could fight back.

 

Again, on my guardian, I have always hit harder with a focus spec'd sweep than I have ever been hit by an Op .. Before the stacking changes? I landed 10k+ sweeps. I don't say this as a brag, but to make a point that the actual damage numbers were never the real problem because I never saw nerf posts about classes doing the exact same thing, damage wise.

 

These changes make no sense, because they are leaving stealth intact, which is the actual problem, and nerfing damage from stealth, out of stealth, and everywhere in between on a class that is generally under-represented and always was of questionable value outside of pvp.

 

If they would just change stealth from an unlimited state to a short durection effect, they could leave operative/scoundrel damage alone on the ground that outside of that short burst window, there isnt a single class that can't already do more overall.

[Ich_Bin]

If you pvp quite a bit and haven't figured out how to counter an operative then....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

 

 

you might be terrible.

 

LOL that is so true. I should take this as my new signature

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin