Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[Shiroikage]

I've already shelved my Opp. I guess this will just cause me to delete him and make room for a class that is viable at anything. RIP Operative. Just one more reason I'm looking forward to ANY other MMO to come down the pike. 1.2 looks like the nerf everybody but Marauder patch.

 

 

Not true they also left assasins/shadows intact.

[DariuszPol]

well, do you want me to prove with this stsatement that you

1. didn't have read my post

2. are lying about your sage/sorc

3. and finally that your only intentsion is to talk bulls_hit?

 

if so you did well.

 

i said explecitely that a HEALER SAGE can heal up again from the <30% hp he still has after the opening sequence. but a DD sage CANNOT!

 

so how exactly am i palying my sage bad?

 

you seem to froget that the op also has a stunnbreaker and you can close the distance of a knockback in a second!

 

As far as I know Sage is mirror to Sorc and have same abilities. As I red on Torhead you have same bubble as me (30s, soak damage, 4,5s cooldown and can be used on target every 20s) so you can be protected WHOLE TIME. And because of that Operative can't ambush you out of combat. You get it at lvl 14.

 

So turn off your tunnel vision and start using that shield. It's not hard to bind close "target self" and that force bubble.

As I understand you should have all other abilities.

 

That funny skill of yours that throw dirt at people also slow down people. OP have stunbreaker but as I said - gain distance and snare - stun is not needed here.

 

If things will get too hot just sprint away. Also - stun breaker ? Sorry but all I need is to stun them so they "break" and then lift them. Few seconds of nothing that I can use to heal myself 100%.

 

For the god sake, he have no gap closer, his range is 0-10 while yours should be 0-30 and if you don't stand in one place like some kind of punching bag but you MOVE then he have NO WAY to kill you.

[Bocherel]

your are right and wrong. people indeed do this mistake. but not every class can recover at that point.

 

a healer sage can do it. but a dd sage not. sure, once in a while you get luck and can escape to recover.

 

Thanks for the insight, I won't quote the full post though but I'll be honest the only Sorc I play is indeed low level and I have yet to encounter an Ops (says a lot about how many people play it) so I wouldn't know what you can or cannot do as a DD sorc.

 

 

I know you've already stated that you have no issue with the situation, however I would like to add a few things :

 

if you manage to escape from the 10m range by any means then you can reverse the situation as long as you are good at kitting (unless we got vanish up).

 

 

I play a commando fully pvp geared, before playing Ops (even though I wasn't bad) out of frustration I would let the Ops finish me if they managed to "perfect" me to 20-30% HP...

 

How big was my mistake? THAT big. When I begun playing Ops I knew there was nothing they could do but vanish if you manage to get out of their 10m range.

 

Now I kill them easily on my commando, just wait for their burst to go down, bump, slow them to death and kill them with instant skills while running, keep an eye on their vanish to instant AOE and break their stealth = no way the operative wins.

 

I'm not talking about you but some people would just complain rather than understanding in what situation they are.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Bocherel

[GrandMike]

well, do you want me to prove with this stsatement that you

1. didn't have read my post

2. are lying about your sage/sorc

3. and finally that your only intentsion is to talk bulls_hit?

 

if so you did well.

 

i said explecitely that a HEALER SAGE can heal up again from the <30% hp he still has after the opening sequence. but a DD sage CANNOT!

 

so how exactly am i palying my sage bad?

 

you seem to froget that the op also has a stunnbreaker and you can close the distance of a knockback in a second!

 

Your DD sage can run away and live 100% of the time, even if you are caught without bubble/cc breaker. Whats your point?

[Shiroikage]

your are right and wrong. people indeed do this mistake. but not every class can recover at that point.

 

a healer sage can do it. but a dd sage not. sure, once in a while you get luck and can escape to recover.

 

now, saying this. i am NOT complaining about this. i do not feel that this makes an op overpoered. i actually have no problem with this.

 

i find it ok to get owned by an op if he openes in stealth. he actually SHOULD have a big advantage in such a fight. that's actually the reason for being stealth, right?

 

an op also pays quite some price for this, he is dead if he runs around unstealthed. so i am fine with this.

 

but it annoyes me that many ops are denying the fact that a NON-HEALER sage/sorc usually has no real chance against an op if he opens the fight in stealth.

 

i also understand that compared to a sage they feel less usefull in the current warzongs. but here i must say: it was your decision. it was always that way for stealth classes. i am though very surprised that the assasin class was designed in a way to allow them being stealthed and viable in mass fights.

but, in that case they do not have that stunnlock (nearly) kill ability like an op, though they perform better at other classes but sages/sorcs.

 

so if you ask me if ops/scoundrells are overall overpowered or underpowered or balanced i would say underpowered! but they vs a dd sage they are the stronger one.

 

Actually as an operative i feel pretty confident that i can win against any class in 1v1 and mind you that my gear is hardly champion with only a BM weapon so far and columni bracers. I know iam right because i have happened against practically anyone in Ilum while i was gathering amrmaments and 9 out of ten times i was victorious. This is nothing to brag about though as this game revolvs around warzones and in warzones you rarely get the chance to be 1v1 in pugs, let alone coordinated semi premades. So yeah the class currently does suck for competitive pvp and will be sucking even more when 1.2 comes out. Two reasons:

 

1) another big nerf

2) rated WZ's

 

you do the math.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Shiroikage

[Dagoolch]

Oh, silly me, and here I thought 20% less armor penetration was literally 20% less total penetration than before...

 

Wow...

 

I guess 20% isn't 20%.

 

Oh well.

 

The jawa pretty much spelled it out, but I'll give you some actual numbers here to help you out.

 

Armor penetration is a percentage of their armor percentage. Supposing a juggernaut with 30% damage reduction from armor, 20% armor reduction would leave them with 80% of their original armor, or 80% of 30% ((.8)(.3))= .24 = 24% damage reduction.

 

So if you hit someone for 3000 damage, 70% ArP against a 30% damage reduction target will hit for 2730. (70% ArP leaves the player with 30% of their original armor, 30% of 30% is 9%, 3000-.09(3000) = 2730) - you lose 9% of the damage

 

Same 3000 damage hit, 50% ArP against 30% will hit for 2550. - you lose 15% of the damage

 

(2730-2550)/3000 = .06, you lose 6% of your damage by losing 20% ArP.

 

 

I do not think operatives need a nerf, however, wasn't the armor penetration change a really old change? I didn't see anything about ArP in the patch notes.

 

I really hope that I can get my level 32 operative to 50 and still enjoy it after these changes. Lacerate already feels a little wimpy before the 10%.

[me_unknown]

Sorry i haven't read the conversation, i just saw this post. Anyway, I have both classes and it's easy to kill an Op as a sorcerer, though you cannot mess up.

 

-You have a ranged slow(keep it up at all times)

-a whirlwind(best used straight away so he wastes his cc on it, if he doesn't, break it yourself from range and kite him. It's also instant cast if specced)

-a ranged stun(best used after he has broken your whirlwind and caught up)

-A knockback(use if electrocute is on cd, also has a root if specced)

-Force sprint(last resort)

 

Then you also have

-bubble

-2x guaranteed crits

-a bunch of dots for kiting

 

Now if he pulls the vanish+double HS/SF with stims and relic popped, then i'd agree you'd probably die in 4-5 hits, but otherwise you should easily be able to kite most Ops to death, even if they attack from stealth.

 

sorry to ask that, but do you read about what i was talking?

 

you seem to talk about the situation where you see an op from the distance,. unstealthed. i do not find many ops running around like this.

[DariuszPol]

Actually as an operative i feel pretty confident that i can win against any class in 1v1 and mind you that my gear is hardly champion with only a BM weapon so far and columni bracers. I know iam right because i have happened against practically anyone in Ilum while i was gathering amrmaments and 9 out of ten times i was victorious. This is nothing to brag about though as this game revolvs around warzones and in warzones you rarely get the chance to be 1v1 in pugs, let alone coordinated semi premades. So yeah the class currently does suck for competitive pvp and will be sucking even more when 1.2 comes out. Two reasons:

 

1) another big nerf

2) rated WZ's

 

you do the math.

 

Proof or didn't happen. My main class was Operative and after some nerfs and upcoming nerfs I decide to roll as Jugg (nice DPS and some nice utility) and Sorc healer (best healer and ton of utility). And I fought enough Scoundrels / Operatives to know better.

 

Only people that you can beat as Operative at this point are ones that:

~ are slow and stupid

~ have no idea how Operative work

~ have no idea how to play their class

~ have around 20-40% HP from the start

~ was catch off guard

~ don't move at all

 

Seriously. As lvl 20 Jugg once I encounter well geared lvl 49 Operative in Alderan. Because of gear and skill gap he could easly kill me. What did I do ? I snared him :-D And then I was running around stupid node. He was not in range so he could not use mele abilities and even overload didn't help him since node was between us. And my AOE snare is spamable.

 

So I run around that node until 1 more player come to help me and we kill him.

 

At lvl 50 I didn't even care about Operatives anymore. Their initial burst don't hurt me (26k HP), I have 2 defensive skills (40% damage reduction and shield that soak damage for few secodns - sabre ward), snare, taunt, quite nice damage and I can keep sustained dps while they don't. More to that - when I force leap I'm immune to CC for a moment. Seriously - I can just run around quite a while with some Operative on my back. I can't say the same for any other class.

[DariuszPol]

sorry to ask that, but do you read about what i was talking?

 

you seem to talk about the situation where you see an op from the distance,. unstealthed. i do not find many ops running around like this.

 

You really are clueless. You see stealthed player FROM A FAR DISTANCE. Just TURN YOUR CAMERA AROUND. You should do that if you know that Scoundrel/Operative is in enemy team. Also just keep up your dam bubble. His opener will break on that. Then just push him back and kite him to death. Even after he open on you and take down that 30% just push him back (and root if you have spec for that) and kite him to death. If that don't work then run away using force sprint and kite him to death.

 

Seriously - if you have hard time killing Operative right now then you are just terrible.

[namelless]

sorry to ask that, but do you read about what i was talking?

 

you seem to talk about the situation where you see an op from the distance,. unstealthed. i do not find many ops running around like this.

 

No i know what you mean, but even if he opens on you from stealth you should be able to escape and kite him.

 

For example as soon as his opening stun wears off you can use whirlwind, if he breaks it you can use electrocute. If he doesn't break it then you can escape and start kiting.

 

Ops have no gap closer and their ability to remove slows/roots is on a one minute cd. He literally cannot keep up with you once you have more than 10m on him(as his slow is limited to a 10m range).

 

Like i said, if he pops everything and uses the double HS/SF vanish bug then you may die, but otherwise you should be fine even when opened on from stealth

Edited March 22, 2012 by namelless

[me_unknown]

No i know what you mean, but even if he opens on you from stealth you should be able to escape and kite him.

 

For example as soon as his opening stun wears off you can use whirlwind, if he breaks it you can use electrocute. If he doesn't break it then you can escape and start kiting.

say he breaks it. he is stunned for 4s?

you purge the slow from you, 1.5 later you apply the slow on him. how far do you think are you getting with an initial slow?

 

Ops have no gap closer and their ability to remove slows/roots is on a one minute cd. He literally cannot keep up with you once you have more than 10m on him(as his slow is limited to a 10m range).

wuold you mind telling me HOW a sage can kite?

 

the only way to kite would be to apply a dot and run arround. his blaster does more damage than our dot + our stone with throw every 6s.

 

well, if you are up to 31 points in the shared tree you have another dot. but considering that at the point you start fighting you have at most 50% hp (less if you haven't your stunn breaker ready) he can outdamge your 2 dots with his blaster.

 

tell me how you can keep him 10m away all the time untill your dot(s) kills him not considering that he can shoot you down?

 

if you use telekenetic throw (channeld one with slow) you have to stand still and even slowed he will come in rage.

 

edit: you want to know a class in swtor that can kite?

it is the vanguard/powertech. i can kite melees around all the way until they die.

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[Shiroikage]

Proof or didn't happen. My main class was Operative and after some nerfs and upcoming nerfs I decide to roll as Jugg (nice DPS and some nice utility) and Sorc healer (best healer and ton of utility). And I fought enough Scoundrels / Operatives to know better.

 

Only people that you can beat as Operative at this point are ones that:

~ are slow and stupid

~ have no idea how Operative work

~ have no idea how to play their class

~ have around 20-40% HP from the start

~ was catch off guard

~ don't move at all

 

Seriously. As lvl 20 Jugg once I encounter well geared lvl 49 Operative in Alderan. Because of gear and skill gap he could easly kill me. What did I do ? I snared him :-D And then I was running around stupid node. He was not in range so he could not use mele abilities and even overload didn't help him since node was between us. And my AOE snare is spamable.

 

So I run around that node until 1 more player come to help me and we kill him.

 

At lvl 50 I didn't even care about Operatives anymore. Their initial burst don't hurt me (26k HP), I have 2 defensive skills (40% damage reduction and shield that soak damage for few secodns - sabre ward), snare, taunt, quite nice damage and I can keep sustained dps while they don't. More to that - when I force leap I'm immune to CC for a moment. Seriously - I can just run around quite a while with some Operative on my back. I can't say the same for any other class.

 

 

I dont need to give you any proof sir. I say it it happened i have NO reason to lie? Why would i? Any person i have seen and fought In Ilum 1v1 situations i won.

 

Only people that i can beat as Operative at this point are ones that:

~ are slow and stupid

~ have no idea how Operative work

~ have no idea how to play their class

~ have around 20-40% HP from the start

~ was catch off guard

~ don't move at all

 

Oh really? I can guarantee that i can beat pretty much EVERYONE on Ilum 1v1 the problem with the operative isnt on 1v1 situations so quit being overdramatic and saying you quit him because you couldnt kill squat. Its true that we need some love too but we still havent gotten to the point where if we play decently we cannot win 1v1's.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Parali
rude, already warned,

[Kaoci]

This really annoys me of people who understand MMO's and just pick one class eg SORC and expect it to pwn every other class in the game. NOOO it isnt designed that way.

 

1. Sorcs are a deadly class that has alot of cc in either dps tree it gets for example bubble if you lightning when it pops it blinds all next to it. Even without that spec it already absorbs alot of damage for example it takes atleast 2 of my Tracer Missles to pop a sorcs Bubble and thats with TM specced to debuff them 2 times every hit.

 

2. They get overload aoe thing which again if specced in lightning it can root all who is hit. Or with madness it keeps them away from you and the thing does pretty good damage for a AOE knockback.

 

3. they get whirlwind which if you put appropiate points in madness you get instant cast so it a good way to pop somones cc breaker. Or crap for somone in line in battle and have no points in madness.

 

4. A ranged stun which is instant.

 

5. you also get an instant aoe attack which heals you part of the damage if you go madness spec and also madness gives you 2 shocks and an instant cast of any attack you want and force lightning on no CD.

 

6. Force Lightning if an agent was to even be a opp and got close if you pop that they wont catch you fastest sprint in game and it even faster than speeder bikes at tier 3.

 

7. Get an instant slow which btw can be popped all time and does a dot. Also you get 3 other dots.

 

8. SORCS are clothies not designed to kill Opperatives in the Rock Papper Scissors gameplay thing.

 

9. Lets look at opp already they got nerfed to hell and lets be honest if not in stealth SUCK.

 

10. They have no catch up abilitys so if they dont kill you with there first opening kb and cc then you are going to win.

 

11. if they are dotted vanish wont work since dots take you out of stealth after it ticks and SORC has fast ticks.

 

12. there ranged attacks have no range pretty much and sorcs can outrange them.

 

13.Agent Opps are basicly and mainly melee class so if sorc runs arround with bubble up and fires on dots then sprints away and keeps it up agent will die fast.

 

so the evidence is easy to prove if you are sorc and die to a agent opperative dps spec you are SUPPOSE to unless you can actually play your class.

 

And BTW its funny to see sorcs always moaning and whinning about ohh OPP to op when they got them nerfed last time which btw agent is no where as good unless a skilled player knows how to use them.

 

Also sorcs if you die all time to them CHANGE CLASS.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Kaoci

[GrandMike]

I dont need to give you any proof sir. I say it it happened i have NO reason to lie? Why would i? Any persone i have seen and fought In Ilum 1v1 situations i won?

 

Only people that i can beat as Operative at this point are ones that:

~ are slow and stupid

~ have no idea how Operative work

~ have no idea how to play their class

~ have around 20-40% HP from the start

~ was catch off guard

~ don't move at all

 

Oh really? maybe you are the slow and stupid one? I can guarantee that i can beat pretty much EVERYONE on Ilum 1v1 the problem with the operative isnt on 1v1 situations so quit being overdramatic and saying you quit him because you couldnt kill squat. Its true that we need some love too but we still havent gotten to the point where if we play decently we cannot win 1v1's.

 

I can 100% run away from operative on my sage. Quit saying "all is fine".

 

Its only melee class you can actually kite.

Edited March 22, 2012 by GrandMike

[namelless]

]say he breaks it. he is stunned for 4s?

you purge the slow from you, 1.5 later you apply the slow on him. how far do you think are you getting with an initial slow?

At the very least you should be more than 10m away and in that case he cannot catch you unless he uses dodge to remove the slows.

 

wuold you mind telling me HOW a sage can kite?

 

You have your two dots, you can apply the castable one while he is stunned and the other afterwards. Then you have project or shock both do a lot of damage and have a short cd, you also have deathfield if you spec madness which is a quick aoe and has a low cd. Then you have creeping terror, the 31 point talent in the madness tree. Both of those are also instant casts

 

Ops on average have 17k hp, honestly after all of those he's going to be dead or very close to death

[me_unknown]

This really annoys me of people who understand MMO's and just pick one class eg SORC and expect it to pwn every other class in the game. NOOO it isnt designed that way.

 

i do not expect to pawn every class with a sage. but i also do not expect to get pawned by every class but tracer mercs in 1on1 (because i can interrupt that and its over). funny is, if they switch to the shared tree they are stronger vs sages.

 

if no interrupts/stunns are used, if you let a sage fight vs any other class, so basically only using damage and debuffs/buffs:

every dd of other classes will kill a dd sage. usually with >50% hp left over.

 

my point here is, that a dd sage/sorc does far less damage vs other classes than other classes do vs sage/sorc.

 

now, for this sage/sorc gets utilities to prevent a big part of the damage, like stuns etc. but this doesn'T work out on endgame pvp with engmae equip. the reason is because the sages damage is too low to do dangerous damage during the time your cc/utilites gives you.

 

though, in grp fights if left alone, you can do quite well. but which class can't in this situation?

[Ziegler]

I thought SNiper was the least played class.

[Shiroikage]

I can 100% run away from operative on my sage. Quit saying "all is fine".

 

Its only melee class you can actually kite.

 

You blind or something? When did i ever say that everything going on about the ops is fine?

Its far from fine. I only stated that i can win almost against everyone in 1v1 situations.

The operative needs to be seriously redisigned and buffed in aspects other than the initial burst. And btw i still havent met ANY sorc(other than healer) that could run away from me on 1v1 sittuations let alone kite and kill me, even the best ones on my server.

[me_unknown]

At the very least you should be more than 10m away and in that case he cannot catch you unless he uses dodge to remove the slows.

 

 

 

You have your two dots, you can apply the castable one while he is stunned

one single time but if you do so he is in range when you are done. so you are dead just afterwards.

 

and the other afterwards. Then you have project or shock both do a lot of damage and have a short cd,

every 6s, as i already mentioned

 

you also have deathfield if you spec madness which is a quick aoe and has a low cd.

not low cd, it is as long as our longest damage cds, 15s

 

Then you have creeping terror, the 31 point talent in the madness tree. Both of those are also instant casts

Ops on average have 17k hp, honestly after all of those he's going to be dead or very close to death

 

i mentioned all of them above.

you have <50% when you start doing this. you have to run around never stopping to not get in 10m range. so he has to do only half the damage of this with his blaster, usually even less is needed as most of the time you start with even less than 50% hp.

 

no, your damage with these abilities is not enough.

 

and not to forget, i never counted in the ability to restealth.

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[Zunayson]

Lemme tell you something , yesterday i made 800 dmg with my shoot first to random mercernary dude.

He was not guarded , not shielded etc.

 

Im wearin best possible gear , full BM with 2 piece of rakata for %15 bonus crit. I feel lost as burst dps class , i feel lost as assasin class.

 

And instead of buffing us they nerfin us to down for third time.

 

Oh well im already unsubbed.

 

Yeah and my sniper's snipes hit for 800 on this powertech (Of course he had a shield)... You know that's messed up when a ranged spammable move does more damage than a melee STEALTH and BEHIND only move.

 

Besides, the initial nerf there was nothing wrong in. People stacked adrenals. I was two hitted by a sniper during that time period. I'd much rather be melee 4 hitted by an operative - instead of two hitted by a ranged class.

 

EDIT: LOL @ the people whining about how they died. This game is not balanced for 1v1, it's balanced for teams. Thus, not every class has the tools to deal with EVERY OTHER CLASS (Note: EVERY class). Some classes are just not the operative's counter, and will therefore die in 1 on 1. There's a topic on what I'm about to say right now, but I'll say it again. Who's idea was it to make a class dependent on burst from stealth when you nerf it's burst?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Zunayson

[me_unknown]

You blind or something? When did i ever say that everything going on about the ops is fine?

Its far from fine. I only stated that i can win almost against everyone in 1v1 situations.

The operative needs to be seriously redisigned and buffed in aspects other than the initial burst. And btw i still havent met ANY sorc(other than healer) that could run away from me on 1v1 sittuations let alone kite and kill me, even the best ones on my server.

 

you are correct!

 

a sage CANNOT KITE!!! for the very most of his damage and proccs he MUST STAND STILL!!!

 

the damage on the run without proccs acquired during casting is a joke!

[namelless]

one single time but if you do so he is in range when you are done. so you are dead just afterwards.

 

I don't know, if he doesn't break whirlwind you should be far enough. If he does and you only have 4 seconds then maybe, but you still have force speed and knockback

 

 

every 6s, as i already mentioned

That's on the same cd as his frag grenade though and it does more damage+has a chance for an extra proc if you're madness specced. You can also use the 2x guaranteed crit for it.

 

not low cd, it is as long as our longest damage cds, 15s

It's still better than anything he has, he can use quickshots for a while, but they use a lot of energy and do only slightly more than auto-attack.

 

you have <50% when you start doing this. you have to run around never stopping to not get in 10m range. so he has to do only half the damage of this with his blaster, usually even less is needed as most of the time you start with even less than 50% hp.

 

Assuming you had your bubble up then you should have atleast 60-70% hp. Also after the electrocute, if you force speed, there is no way he could close in fast enough to interrupt your heal and then you can just knock him back with root. If he uses dodge to remove it then you use your slow and he is once again out of range. Also if you combine your heal with the 2x crit ability then you should be close to full hp.

 

and not to forget, i never counted in the ability to restealth.

 

Okay you have a point here, as vanish does have a substantial speed boost, if he stupidly blows vanish to take you down(which would be very stupid in a team play scenario) then he might be able to catch up.

 

Honestly i find marauders to be much harder than operatives on my Sorcerer. I cannot shake a good marauder.

[me_unknown]

I don't know, if he doesn't break whirlwind you should be far enough. If he does and you only have 4 seconds then maybe, but you still have force speed and knockback

if you assume you break his stunn so he may break yours too. so if you, like you said above used both your stunns then you cannot knockback him anymore because he is immune.

 

but we are throwing situation over the place.... you think yuo can reliable win against a good op even if he opens in stealth. so be it.

 

i can't reliable get away. i am slowed, i can't stunn as he breaks it, and even if i get away i get killed by his blaster while runnning around. if i stand still to do some damage he gets close and i am done.

 

that's my experience against a good op.

 

i do not see how i can outdamge an ops blaster while never stopping for a cast, considering that i started the fight with less than 50% hp, most times <40%. and wihtout a stunn breaker <30%.

 

edit: not to forget that no warzone is big enough to run around so long withuot him being able to catch up. as soon as i have to run a curve he can cut it short and catch up.

 

only idiots follow me on the exact patch i walked

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[Silvang]

Frankly, I don't feel the Ops/Scundies are weak at all.

 

I don't know if it's because people got so used to the "ROFLstab, stab, stab = enemy dead under 10 seconds" crap before the initial nerf, but one thing for certain is most Ops/Scundy I see in the field (...or in the forums for that matter...), have totally lost the "Rogue-instinct" playing tactics which is so important for all stealth classes.

 

As it is I actually see Sentinel/Marauders with just 4 seconds of stealth using it more tactically, than the Ops/Scundies who are like;; attack from stealth -> fall into insane target fixation -> PHAIL -> get ganked and die.

 

 

Basically, Ops/Scundy players expect to be able to kill anything at any given situation, as long as they get the first jump on the target from stealth. They fail to realize that there's a difference between having been given a "great tactical advantage" and "being able to ROFLstomp any opposition".

 

It don't matter if the target is a high defense/armor class, full health, buffed and bursting out the wazoo - if an Ops/Scundy stealthily approaches and fires off the first attack, they expect they should win. They fail at that, and then they come here and cry their class sucks.

 

...

 

I don't care if a certain Ops/Scundy can't even kill a fly 1vs1. All I care is that even under current conditions, I know quite a few Ops players in the Imp faction that have left their mark deeply to my memory... and everytime, it is their uncanny, opportunistic, superbly tactical timing and playing style that makes me remember them as such fearful opponents.

 

 

One thing's for certain - the Ops/Scundies I fear, sure don't need their specs reverted to pre-nerf, nor do they need any gap-closer. It's their playstyle that scares me the most.

 

Judging by the amount of ridiculous whines and exaggerations I've been monitoring in these forums for the past months, I don't trust any of the whiney posters - whichever class they use - and I have serious doubts if they really understand their own class, or how PvP works in SWTOR.

 

...

 

That being said;

 

The only thing I can vouch for the Ops/Scundies, is that they need some sort of talent to allow faster and definate combat closure, so they can re-enter stealth within about 5 seconds of last used hostile/combat action. They don't need a gap closer or revert back to old damaging capacity.

 

5 seconds is just enough time for a stun to last, so with this made possible, combined with the use of a stun/sleep power the Ops/Scundy has about 2~3 chances to re-enter stealth mode without using the 3minute forced stealth. It adds more consideration to the tactical value of the use of stuns/sleeps, as well as opens up chances for the Ops/Scundy to manage the combat better, giving extra chances to use high-damage attacks from stealth.

 

 

This, should be the main difference between an Assasin/Shadow and Ops/Scoundy, whereas the tactical use of stealth is much limited to the first initial advantage for Assasin/Shadows, Ops/Scundies should be given an option to utilize that advantage even during combat, so they can find/implement their own unique playstyles to manage the fight to their own terms, so they can find chances to re-stealth.

 

Capable Rogue players do this all the time in WoW... and how they pop out of stealth to attack, place stuns cleverly, go back into stealth, reposition.. etc etc.. is what defines their style. The better the player, the more easily he does this. It should be the same with Ops/Scundies.

 

If they ask that, then I vouch for it.

 

Frankly, the requests for damage/penetration values to be reverted, or to be given ranged CCs, or gap closing skills, is just out of whack and stupid, IMO. Ops/Scoundies should not be given just straight-forward, damaging capacity as compensation.

 

What they should be given, is a means for each player to capitalize their unique class strength during combat more often, so people who practice it and perfect it, can implement it to their own combat style more easily.

 

What he said, to the letter.

[namelless]

if you assume you break his stunn so he may break yours too. so if you, like you said above used both your stunns then you cannot knockback him anymore because he is immune.

 

but we are throwing situation over the place.... you think yuo can reliable win against a good op even if he opens in stealth. so be it.

 

Well it was interesting to think about all of the posibilities and there are probably more we didn't cover. Being honest i don't think the win is reliable, it requires you to be perfect and to not make a single mistake, and none of us do that, we're all human. I think it is possible though and i have killed a few ops after being opened on from stealth.

 

On the otherhand if i am not at full hp, don't have my bubble up or my cc breaker is on cd i have been killed by good ops from stealth aswell. At the end of the day though i think we can both agree that the operative class is underpowered and doesn't achieve what it is supposed to.