Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[iphobia]

Playing full BM Sorc-heal.

This class is so annoying as an enemy.

No stunbreaker = start fight with 20-30% hp.

No stunbreaker + no knockback/stun/sprint = dead.

And I'm speaking about Champion-geared Ops, not even BM/Rakata.

 

I think the classmechanic of the Ops/Scoundrel is a fail itself.

No class should be able to kill full geared people in 2 stuns if they don't have their breaker up. So nerf the opening-burst and/or give the 2 stuns a cooldownsystem like if you have 2 different use-relics (relics have both 2m cd, if you use one the other gets a 30s cd).

But on the other hand, this burst is the only thing that Ops have at the moment. So to make this a viable class, they would have to buff the sustained damage-abilities and the survivability.

They should also make the class more interesting for object based gametypes. Everything a Ops can do for his team in a huttball an Assassin can do just better.

 

The whole idea to make a stealth-burst-only-class is bullsh*t. It just ends up like it is now with the Ops/Scoundrels. Other classes whine because they die within a few seconds if a Ops decides to attack. So the class gets nerfed. Ops whine because their burst gets nerfed and because they have no sustained damage/surv.

 

I don't think they can fix the problem without changing the classmechanic from burst to sustained...

[TheGreatNeechi]

Everything a Ops can do for his team in a huttball an Assassin can do just better.

 

How are those Assassin's healing, by the way?

[me_unknown]

Really?

 

20% less armor penetration means... wait a minute... 20% less damage gets through.

 

That is effectively an additional 20% loss of damage output.

 

and you want to be taken serious on this discussion?

 

let me explain you what it means but i expect from you to apologize for posting about stuff you have no clue about!

 

say your opponent has so mauch armor that it means a 30% damage reduction. hence an attack does only 70% of its maximum damage. if your attack has say 80% armor penetration then it will do 1-03*0.2 = 0.94 - 94% of its maximum damage.

 

no you said your armor penetration got reduced by 20% (catually this usually means not by 20% but by 20 percent points - an additiv change). hence you now have only 60% armor penetration.

 

so...

1-0.3*0.4=0.88 , 88%

you lost around 6% of damage.

 

and the less armor an opponent has, the less you lose.

 

edit: but at least you are right with your statement that sometimes logic evades people. it seems to evade you by a very very long distance.

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[Nangasaur]

The class is already easy to play.

 

Knockdown, stab, stab, stab.

This.

 

About as easy as Tracer Missile, Tracer Missile, Tracer Missile, UNLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAD, Dragon Uppercut!!

 

Ha-Do-Ken! Ha-Do-Ken! Ha-Do-Ken! Shooooooooo Ryuuuuuuuuuuu Ken!

 

AmIdoinitrite?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Nangasaur

[Gunlaugr]

I play a scoundrel with champion gear and a few battlemaster pieces.

 

When I open from stealth on equally geared players of ANY CLASS, at best my burst takes them down to 35-40%. This is with relic used plus warzone adrenal.

 

So those of you who claim that operatives/scoundrels kill you in a matter of two stun durations are simply vastly undergeared, or liars.

[TheGreatNeechi]

and you want to be taken serious on this discussion?

 

let me explain you what it means but i expect from you to apologize for posting about stuff you have no clue about!

 

say your opponent has so mauch armor that it means a 30% damage reduction. hence an attack does only 70% of its maximum damage. if your attack has say 80% armor penetration then it will do 1-03*0.2 = 0.94 - 94% of its maximum damage.

 

no you said your armor penetration got reduced by 20% (catually this usually means not by 20% but by 20 percent points - an additiv change). hence you now have only 60% armor penetration.

 

so...

1-0.3*0.4=0.88 , 88%

you lost around 6% of damage.

 

and the less armor an opponent has, the less you lose.

 

Oh, silly me, and here I thought 20% less armor penetration was literally 20% less total penetration than before...

 

Wow...

 

I guess 20% isn't 20%.

 

Oh well.

[warkat]

I play a scoundrel with champion gear and a few battlemaster pieces.

 

When I open from stealth on equally geared players of ANY CLASS, at best my burst takes them down to 35-40%. This is with relic used plus warzone adrenal.

 

So those of you who claim that operatives/scoundrels kill you in a matter of two stun durations are simply vastly undergeared, or liars.

 

Well you said it yourself.. Your baddie geared you can burst someone 35-40%...lucky for you you can vanish and burst the rest off and give some to his buddy...

[Shiroikage]

Playing full BM Sorc-heal.

This class is so annoying as an enemy.

No stunbreaker = start fight with 20-30% hp.

No stunbreaker + no knockback/stun/sprint = dead.

And I'm speaking about Champion-geared Ops, not even BM/Rakata.

 

Um, no!

For a champion OP to kill a fully BM geared Heal sorc as you descibed one of three cases would have to occur:

 

1) Either the sorc on the receiving end is Terribly and i mean Terribly bad. Meaning that he would have to literrally sit there and just look at the OP kill him or..

 

2) The attacker wanst even an operative but rather a god.

 

3) if He opened on the sorc when the sorc was already at 30 or 20% well thats natural. Either class would be able to kill you if they at least know how to press two skills:

 

1 Merc attacks you with tracers. what do you think happens?

2 Assasin knockdown ---> beggins burst. What do you think happens?

3 Sentinel charges you what do you think happens?

 

Do you get my drift? Any class that decides to attack you. Or rather any decent player can kill anyone when they are at Full health and the oponent is at 30% regardless of either class...

Edited March 22, 2012 by Shiroikage

[me_unknown]

I play a scoundrel with champion gear and a few battlemaster pieces.

 

When I open from stealth on equally geared players of ANY CLASS, at best my burst takes them down to 35-40%. This is with relic used plus warzone adrenal.

 

So those of you who claim that operatives/scoundrels kill you in a matter of two stun durations are simply vastly undergeared, or liars.

 

maybe you are doing something wrong. on my sage i get regularly down to <30% by the same ops again and again. but i currently stopped playing my sage anyway. so ops aren't a big problem anymore.

 

i agree on problems of ops, they can right played eat sages/sorcs easy, but with the other classes they have very big problems. that's why i would never claim them to be overpowered!

[me_unknown]

Um, no!

For a champion OP to kill a fully BM geared Heal sorc as you descibed one of three cases would have to occur:

 

1) Either the sorc on the receiving end is Terribly and i mean Terribly bad. Meaning that he would have to literrally sit there and just look at the OP kill him or..

 

2) The attacker wanst even an operative but rather a god.

 

3) if He opened on the sorc when the sorc was already at 30 or 20% well thats natural. Either class would be able to kill you if they at least know how to press two skills...

 

no, i think you missunderstood him. if the sage/sorc has no stunnbreaker ready, he will be below 30% hp when he is able for the first time to take action. a good op can bring a sage down to <=30% from full hp without the sage being able to take a single action.

 

now if the sage is a healer he obviously can heal up again. but a dd sage is dead!

[Gunlaugr]

maybe you are doing something wrong. on my sage i get regularly down to <30% by the same ops again and again. but i currently stopped playing my sage anyway. so ops aren't a big problem anymore.

 

i agree on problems of ops, they can right played eat sages/sorcs easy, but with the other classes they have very big problems. that's why i would never claim them to be overpowered!

 

Yes, maybe I am doing something wrong. My sequence is so damn HARD to execute.

 

Flechette round-> shoot first - > back blast -> stun - > sabotage charge -> sucker punch.

 

 

There's not much to do wrong.

[me_unknown]

Oh, silly me, and here I thought 20% less armor penetration was literally 20% less total penetration than before...

 

Wow...

 

I guess 20% isn't 20%.

 

Oh well.

 

jesus. it IS literally 20% less PENETRATION!!!! penetration =/= DAMAGE! as long as your opponent does not have 100% mitigation due to armor!

[iphobia]

no, i think you missunderstood him. if the sage/sorc has no stunnbreaker ready, he will be below 30% hp when he is able for the first time to take action. a good op can bring a sage down to <=30% from full hp without the sage being able to take a single action.

 

now if the sage is a healer he obviously can heal up again. but a dd sage is dead!

 

Thanks, exactly what I wanted to say.

[Shiroikage]

no, i think you missunderstood him. if the sage/sorc has no stunnbreaker ready, he will be below 30% hp when he is able for the first time to take action. a good op can bring a sage down to <=30% from full hp without the sage being able to take a single action.

 

now if the sage is a healer he obviously can heal up again. but a dd sage is dead!

 

 

Even if that is true a Champ Operative cant do that against a BM sorc period.

[Mindsplitter]

I've already shelved my Opp. I guess this will just cause me to delete him and make room for a class that is viable at anything. RIP Operative. Just one more reason I'm looking forward to ANY other MMO to come down the pike. 1.2 looks like the nerf everybody but Marauder patch.

[me_unknown]

Yes, maybe I am doing something wrong. My sequence is so damn HARD to execute.

 

Flechette round-> shoot first - > back blast -> stun - > sabotage charge -> sucker punch.

 

 

There's not much to do wrong.

 

sure there is. probably not on your skill rotation but on your build/equipment. don't know. but i see this happing very often on our server. there are many operatives that brings T2/T3 sage down to <30% before they even can react.

 

oh and some of them can even handle the stunbreaker nice. let me tell you how:

 

you get the first stunn. no if you chose to break it you eat the second one. if you wait for the second one well, you wno't get stunned again.

 

now, i have root on my knockback. so usually i knocked back opponent can't come back so fast.

 

but if i have a stunnbreaker, the op can use it to break the root (yes it works!).

 

i am at this point always slowed. now i have to purge the slow, 1GCD and apply a slow to my opponent, again 1 gcd and maybe a bubble again 1 gcd.

 

he does not need more than 1 gcd, at most 2 to be again close to me. and give me the final blow.

 

if a stunn him before he can do so i actually can get out of range, with my very low hp. but as good as this sounds in practice it doesn't work so good. not only i have to stand still to damage him as my dots are not doing much damage. and even with the slow on my telekenetic throw he will come close and then i am dead.

 

do we have a chance if all palys well, if we have time to run around waiting for the dot to kill them from 100% hp down to 0%? yes. is it likely? no way!

 

believe it or not, but your blaster does similar damage than what most sages can do on the run. well it is less, but you start with at least double the hp and you are chasiing the sage not vice versa.

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[me_unknown]

Even if that is true a Champ Operative cant do that against a BM sorc period.

 

sure. though i must admit i only saw it doing BM ops vs BM sages and champ ops vs champ sages.

 

considering that the difference between champ and bm is not big at all i would say, yes he can if done right.

[DariuszPol]

Playing full BM Sorc-heal.

This class is so annoying as an enemy.

No stunbreaker = start fight with 20-30% hp.

No stunbreaker + no knockback/stun/sprint = dead.

And I'm speaking about Champion-geared Ops, not even BM/Rakata.

 

I think the classmechanic of the Ops/Scoundrel is a fail itself.

No class should be able to kill full geared people in 2 stuns if they don't have their breaker up. So nerf the opening-burst and/or give the 2 stuns a cooldownsystem like if you have 2 different use-relics (relics have both 2m cd, if you use one the other gets a 30s cd).

But on the other hand, this burst is the only thing that Ops have at the moment. So to make this a viable class, they would have to buff the sustained damage-abilities and the survivability.

They should also make the class more interesting for object based gametypes. Everything a Ops can do for his team in a huttball an Assassin can do just better.

 

The whole idea to make a stealth-burst-only-class is bullsh*t. It just ends up like it is now with the Ops/Scoundrels. Other classes whine because they die within a few seconds if a Ops decides to attack. So the class gets nerfed. Ops whine because their burst gets nerfed and because they have no sustained damage/surv.

 

I don't think they can fix the problem without changing the classmechanic from burst to sustained...

 

Yeah right If we talk about BM gear then you are just so wrong on all levels. First of all at lvl 50 you have BIG HP buff. Seriously - My Jugg have 26k HP. I saw Jugg with 30k HP. For Operative it would take forever to take them down. And heals... you can forget about taking down healers too. Especially if I use shields, 40% damage reduction, taunt that is almost spammable and have 30% damage reduction on target and AOE snare that allow me to get out or Operative range ANY TIME I NEED.

 

If they change burst to sustained then I can play Mara or Jugg. What is the point playing simple mele dps that have no gap closer or anything ? I can get close to my target with ANY class except Operative.

 

Stealth burst only class was great for tactical use. Aid friends in combat, taking down healers etc. It was class that focus on finding weak targets (unprotected sorcs, players with no defensive on them, wounded targets, targets already busy in combat etc) and ambush them.

 

But like you said - right now EVERYTHING that Operative can do - Assasin can do better.

 

This is why I no longer keep my subscription. My main character got nerfed to the ground, WZ are getting nerf to scare away PVP crowd and there is no ETA on character tranfer, changes in Open World PVP and as we just learned few days ago - bioware warn people for doing open world pvp on pvp server...

 

Next hope for PVP folk like me is GW2.

[me_unknown]

why are you talking about 26k hp of a jugg tank when he is talking about a sage? a sage in bm won't have above 17k hp at best.

 

i want to repeat:

i am on your side about dd ops being of lower value compared to most other classes. but you are wrong when comparing with sages/sorcs!

 

if you compare your dd op with a heal sage, then please compare a heal op with a heal sage.

Edited March 22, 2012 by me_unknown

[DariuszPol]

no, i think you missunderstood him. if the sage/sorc has no stunnbreaker ready, he will be below 30% hp when he is able for the first time to take action. a good op can bring a sage down to <=30% from full hp without the sage being able to take a single action.

 

now if the sage is a healer he obviously can heal up again. but a dd sage is dead!

 

Then your sorc is just poor. I play Sorc healers and I can rotfl on Operative. I stay away from combat and heal. But I keep my bubble up. Buble that can soak lot of damage, can last up to 30s and... have 20s cooldown. So unattacked I can be protected all the time.

 

So initial burst just breaks on that bubble and I can do WHATEVER I want to Operative.

~ push back and snare spamming lightning - forever for them to get close and they take ton of damage

~ force sprint away a little and do this again

~ push back is on short cooldown so I can use it quite often

~ if I'm hybrid sorc I can also root them

~ i still have stuns

~ i still have my bubble on low cooldown

~ i always can combine push back + root + force sprint + stun and have ENOUGH time to heal myself to 100% and start over again

~ and he will be out of resource and some point

~ while I have no need for resource managment

 

If you loose to Operative 1vs1 then you are just terrible.

~ turn off your tunnel vision, turn camera around and you see them comming

~ always keep bubble on yourself

 

This way ONLY way for Operative to attack and kill you is when you are in combat with another player. So it's quite like any other class fighting 2 vs 1 - you are dead.

 

Seriously - right now ONLY advantage Operative has is to ambush noobs or busy players. Nothing more.

Edited March 22, 2012 by DariuszPol

[Bocherel]

People just dont get it. Since we are stealth and have one chance to catch you then we are always careful and take the best chance to kill you fast using the best moment. Often people feel outmatched and they GIVE UP thinking they are dead anyway when they are below 30%HP while in fact thats at this very moment we are vulnerable because our burst is gone.

[me_unknown]

Then your sorc is just poor. I play Sorc healers and I can rotfl on Operative. I stay away from combat and heal. But I keep my bubble up. Buble that can soak lot of damage, can last up to 30s and... have 20s cooldown. So unattacked I can be protected all the time.

 

well, do you want me to prove with this stsatement that you

1. didn't have read my post

2. are lying about your sage/sorc

3. and finally that your only intentsion is to talk bulls_hit?

 

if so you did well.

 

i said explecitely that a HEALER SAGE can heal up again from the <30% hp he still has after the opening sequence. but a DD sage CANNOT!

 

so how exactly am i palying my sage bad?

 

you seem to froget that the op also has a stunnbreaker and you can close the distance of a knockback in a second!

[Ich_Bin]

I have stuck with my concealment operative through every single one of the nerfs, while most other operatives on my server either rerolled or respecced into healing.

When 1.2 hits I will finally surrender and become a healer, too. Because that seems to be what the developers want us to do.

 

Thank you Georg Zoeller for sucking the fun out of the class (even taking away the chuckle sound).

[me_unknown]

People just dont get it. Since we are stealth and have one chance to catch you then we are always careful and take the best chance to kill you fast using the best moment. Often people feel outmatched and they GIVE UP thinking they are dead anyway when they are below 30%HP while in fact thats at this very moment we are vulnerable because our burst is gone.

 

your are right and wrong. people indeed do this mistake. but not every class can recover at that point.

 

a healer sage can do it. but a dd sage not. sure, once in a while you get luck and can escape to recover.

 

now, saying this. i am NOT complaining about this. i do not feel that this makes an op overpoered. i actually have no problem with this.

 

i find it ok to get owned by an op if he openes in stealth. he actually SHOULD have a big advantage in such a fight. that's actually the reason for being stealth, right?

 

an op also pays quite some price for this, he is dead if he runs around unstealthed. so i am fine with this.

 

but it annoyes me that many ops are denying the fact that a NON-HEALER sage/sorc usually has no real chance against an op if he opens the fight in stealth.

 

i also understand that compared to a sage they feel less usefull in the current warzongs. but here i must say: it was your decision. it was always that way for stealth classes. i am though very surprised that the assasin class was designed in a way to allow them being stealthed and viable in mass fights.

but, in that case they do not have that stunnlock (nearly) kill ability like an op, though they perform better at other classes but sages/sorcs.

 

so if you ask me if ops/scoundrells are overall overpowered or underpowered or balanced i would say underpowered! but they vs a dd sage they are the stronger one.

[namelless]

well, do you want me to prove with this stsatement that you

1. didn't have read my post

2. are lying about your sage/sorc

3. and finally that your only intentsion is to talk bulls_hit?

 

if so you did well.

 

i said explecitely that a HEALER SAGE can heal up again from the <30% hp he still has after the opening sequence. but a DD sage CANNOT!

 

so how exactly am i palying my sage bad?

 

you seem to froget that the op also has a stunnbreaker and you can close the distance of a knockback in a second!

 

 

Sorry i haven't read the conversation, i just saw this post. Anyway, I have both classes and it's easy to kill an Op as a sorcerer, though you cannot mess up.

 

-You have a ranged slow(keep it up at all times)

-a whirlwind(best used straight away so he wastes his cc on it, if he doesn't, break it yourself from range and kite him. It's also instant cast if specced)

-a ranged stun(best used after he has broken your whirlwind and caught up)

-A knockback(use if electrocute is on cd, also has a root if specced)

-Force sprint(last resort)

 

Then you also have

-bubble

-2x guaranteed crits

-a bunch of dots for kiting

 

Now if he pulls the vanish+double HS/SF with stims and relic popped, then i'd agree you'd probably die in 4-5 hits, but otherwise you should easily be able to kite most Ops to death, even if they attack from stealth.

Edited March 22, 2012 by namelless