Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[Polimeris]

The backstab nerf is a tough hit to the scoundrels/ops sustain damage.

 

Consequently, scoundrels and ops are going to be played like gankers even more.

 

Everybody lose. Fun time.

[Skyrill]

it could be cool to nerf sorc/bh/op so the other class could begin to enjoy pvp...

[mangarrage]

The only thing they did wrong in this patch is to not compensate your other abilities with a dmg boost

 

People who play op that cant take down 6 of the 8 archtypes from 100% to 20% - 0% without that person being able to do anything about it are just bad.

 

Is this nerf too much, yes without question. BW made a mistake with their heavy hand and really no compensation

 

However no one wants vanlla wow rogues and that is exactly what ops are.

 

You can talk about your cooldowns and what your abilities do and that's all well and good but we see it in practice.

[Crawelc]

It takes a special kind of person to want to play an OP so i dont think those folks are gonna stop playing them. Nerf=Couldnt have happened to a nicer person.

[Chasidim]

People who play op that cant take down 6 of the 8 archtypes from 100% to 20% - 0% without that person being able to do anything about it are just bad.

 

 

that is just so wrong. no wonder everyone is crying about ops. most people have no f.ucking clue.

[GrandMike]

that is just so wrong. no wonder everyone is crying about ops. most people have no f.ucking clue.

 

Best to leave terribads and carebears behind.

 

Its no wonder its like this, because swarms of bored PvE carebears try PvP and then QQ about it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by GrandMike

[EnochThompson]

The only thing they did wrong in this patch is to not compensate your other abilities with a dmg boost

 

People who play op that cant take down 6 of the 8 archtypes from 100% to 20% - 0% without that person being able to do anything about it are just bad.

 

Yes if the victim is in green gear and you cannot take him out the way you say you are bad...

 

Now try the same tactic on a BH, Sorc, Marau, Jugg, Sin with full champion or Battlemaster see how good you do. However if the same classes played by "clickers" yes you have a greater chance of killing them before they can do anything, but thts because they are bad players and they havent learn how to use hotkeys.

 

Do you know how many people will get Battle Master/Rakata gear when 1.2 comes out? It will probably take every nub 1 week.

[MrXen]

Sigh...

Most of you don't get it.

 

On one side, you have ops/scoundrels whining because they lose an enormous amount of sustained damage (irreversabily damaging an already weak spec in PvE).

On the other side, you have other classes whining because ops/scoundrels have burst when stealthed.

 

One side whines because outside stealth ops/scoundrels will be even more subpar.

One side whines because inside stealth ops/scoundrels are currently performing well.

 

The patch will confirm the ganking role of ops and scoundrels by decreasing effectiveness outside of ganking gameplay.

 

That's what everyone doesn't want to happen.

 

 

Well, that is the role the class has, if people made an operative with the intention to fight long-sustained dps battles without stealth, then that was THEIR mistake.

 

 

 

I however, roled an assassin hoping for the ganking role; now will be making an operative soon because the class is insanely good.

[Chasidim]

Well, that is the role the class has, if people made an operative with the intention to fight long-sustained dps battles without stealth, then that was THEIR mistake.

 

 

 

I however, roled an assassin hoping for the ganking role; now will be making an operative soon because the class is insanely good.

 

if you think an op is better than an equal assassin, you are insanely retareded!

[Sinemetu]

your are right and wrong. people indeed do this mistake. but not every class can recover at that point.

 

a healer sage can do it. but a dd sage not. sure, once in a while you get luck and can escape to recover.

 

Dude, you're comparing an operative with all his cooldowns attacking from stealth to a sorc with none of his. Give me a break. Stop telling this story where the operative can use his stun breaker but the sage can't. No one cares. It's easy to escape as a sage, end of story. Sprint has a 30s CD and less with talents. The operative has no way to close the gap if you get outside of 10 yards.

[GrandMike]

Well, that is the role the class has, if people made an operative with the intention to fight long-sustained dps battles without stealth, then that was THEIR mistake.

 

 

 

I however, roled an assassin hoping for the ganking role; now will be making an operative soon because the class is insanely good.

 

GL with going back to your assassin

[ursuul]

if you think an op is better than an equal assassin, you are insanely retareded!

 

Quoted For Truth. i don't understand why people (who have clearly found the forums) can make such obviously under informed statements. meh, i refuse to believe people are this stupid and instead label such people as trolls.

[Ozzone]

Quoted For Truth. i don't understand why people (who have clearly found the forums) can make such obviously under informed statements. meh, i refuse to believe people are this stupid and instead label such people as trolls.

 

If you spend some time on here, do a little checking and pay attention, it seems to be the same group of terribads that troll these "nerf ops" threads over and over.

[Howbadisbad]

Well, that is the role the class has, if people made an operative with the intention to fight long-sustained dps battles without stealth, then that was THEIR mistake.

 

 

 

I however, roled an assassin hoping for the ganking role; now will be making an operative soon because the class is insanely good.

 

You are basically saying that Operatives should perform like they did in their pre 1.1.1 days. They bursted you down and went on their way. After being nerfed to the ground, we are forced to use sustained damage because we can't burst geared classes for ****.

 

Either know what you are talking about before you post, or stop trolling.

[Morticoccus]

Well, the concealment spec has been pretty underwhelming in PvE for a while now, anything higher than a normal strong mob is annoying/impossible to kill.

 

They should at least buff the lethality spec to help out.

[goulet]

the problem i see is that there's a huge disconnect between the perception of the class, and the reality of what it actually is, by all parties involved.

 

Dev perspective/game perspective

-Just by looking at tree set up, the class seems confused between what it wants to do and what it needs to be able to do it.

-justification for nerfs could be a bit more concise, what we nerfed on last patch now seems to be the opposite of why we need to be nerfed this patch. While it may not have been by intent the comment given implies that small class population gives you less importance, and play experience trumps actuall mechanics.

 

Lethality (shared tree)

-Entirely ranged abilities save the 1 melee ability you need to make the entire thing work.

-all skills that improve defense across the class are located in this tree, a tree that is 95 percent ranged, who's damage is ranged and passive. This is tree that needs the defense?

 

Concealment

-this tree and healing are the more coherent.

-its melee its burst, but its controlled burst, rather then proc burst like with pyrotech etc. It doesn't center around procs like other spec do.

-Burst is positional, requiring cc

-makes the best use of stealth, but stealth still only has 2 specific abilities.

-Energy management is the lowest, probably because of the burst set up.

-when you nerf burst with a spec that has poor energy management you risk the ability to make that combat style sustainable enough.

-Its melee, it needs burst.

 

People who don't play the class:

-Think operatives are stealth gods. In actuality we have 2 abilities to use from stealth, 1 sap, and hidden strike (knockdown+ damage)

-You can see them while stealthed when they're close to you, even with improved stealth.

-Being stealthed, even with move speed talents, doesn't make you move faster then anyone in combat and moving, or out of combat and sprinting.

-too much cc: theres 2 in combat ccs that cause loss of control, both stuns, 1 is 45 s cd, the other on a a minute. When you get hit by it you will be stunned, but the deck isn't stacked for cc. And mathematically speaking multiple other classes can cc you for the same amount of time.

-stealth does afford you the advantage of picking your fights, and i can't do squat about the guy who stays in stealth till his gcds are up in between picking fights.

- i see an overwhelming majority of nerf posts directed at all classes, and very few post about "is it possible to counter this class and how' cause it can be done.

 

People who play the class

-some fail to realize how annoying it can be to have a guy consistently come out of stealth to attack you.

-focus on what needs to be improved over whats imbalanced. There were/are imbalances but that doesn't mean the class doesn't need improving.

Edited March 23, 2012 by goulet

[Humancentipad]

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

Yet SURPRISINGLY, Assassins are left untouched!

 

And Lethality got a fix to a talent, instead of a fix to it's energy like it really needs.

 

And Concealment's tree got 3 talent points of required bloat because they got tired of no one putting points into that dumb 3% dmg talent.

 

Why spec DPS as an Op at this point?!?

[iM_TeHCno]

Losing the best part of your hp to a stunlock/alpha strike from stealth is never fun. It got old fast in WoW and has no place in any other MMO either.

 

This sort of thing will inevitably give rise to legions of nerf criers and ragequitting players, who find their enjoyment of PvP curtailed by OP classes taking any element of player skill and reaction out of the fight equation due to lopsided class advantages.

 

It wouldn't matter if it was only 1 person playing the class/spec on each server. The problem isn't the player, it's about game balance.

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

In the meantime, stop relying on your faceroll hotkey sequence>dead player>restealth>next victim and l2play.

 

It has nothing to do with balance actually.... nothing at all. Ops as of right now work perfectly as intended. They can (and still will) be used in PvP premades to stunlock a target, giving a moderate amount of burst while another sustained damage melee that can have some mobility problems *coughwatchmensentinelcough* helps to lock them down and finish them off.

 

The mechanic of a stealth burst is was game developers call Anti-Fun. Basically the concept is, somebody is going to be happy they got a kill and somebody is going to be angry they died. Is the person who died angry because they died due to lack of skill/minor mistakes? Or are they angry because for 10 seconds they couldn't do anything but watch their HP drop... Anti-Fun, and its bad for business.

[Humancentipad]

This is because you abused the class killing people with no chance of defending themselves. Hitting stims and abusing surge mechanic until it got nerfed. Ranting in general that you were an awesome player. Even thinking this in your head. Never admitting you were OP. Laughing at ME while I was on the floor defenceless, no chance of fighting back at all. No chance.

 

Suck on Karma ******.

 

So apparently it makes a big difference to you if you get effed while laying on the ground, instead of being effed while standing, not in any form of CC, watching your health bar go from 75-80% to empty, which is something I get, regardless of spec, from certain Assassins and Powertechs. Strings of 4k crits that snuff me out like a candle.

 

I'm sure they were hitting stims just like I do.

 

See, here's what I don't get. I'm a new battlemaster, currently wearing a majority of healing PvP gear. The ONLY way I make a number come up on my screen larger than 4k is via Healing. Blowing stim + relic and laying in to someone, even with my equivalent in DPS gear, most of my hits are around 2-3k, no double hits (excluding that dumb vanish/hs exploit, which a lot of people not playing conc/DF know about), no guaranteed crits.

 

Maximum dmg these days depends on opening, then stacking all our dots, blowing flyby/OS and hoping you stay in it somehow, and running/losing and healing if we're getting our ish pushed. So basically ruling out 1v1 and forcing a "stealth scavenger" playstyle, where we only open from stealth when it's a sure thing, or sacrifice our lives for objectives, as we go squish real easily.

 

My dmg is already pretty bad compared to all other melee-mid ranged, coupled with how sub-par our survival is outside of stealth, and it forces me to spec heals to feel useful in a team setting.

 

Currently, you can contribute by stealthing to an enemy healer, and harassing them as much as you can, or try to stealth to pass locations (closer to goal the better), or sneak objectives, we can TRY to heal the ball carrier, in situations where we're not *****knifing someone. Assassins can do all these things better than us (except healing), but WE CAN HEAL!!!! So we're expected to play like cowards, or "skirmishers" if you want to be nice, coming in from stealth with a full health bar, and running away to los and heal, and fume while you wait to get out of combat until the STEALTH RANGER CAN STRIKE AGAIN!

 

I would trade my healing abilities while in concealment/lethality for MOAR DMG and BETTER SURVIVABILITY in a SECOND!

[zaltanus]

K. Lemme break down both sides, as i have a lvl 50 op and a lvl 50 sorc and i've pvp'd against each class.

 

Op vs Sorc

 

1. Op uses hidden strike! Knocks down sorc for 1.5 seconds! (unless sorc pops UW, then move to fight step 2) Op stuns sorc for 5 seconds! Op uses back stab! Op uses Shiv! It's super effective (and by super effective I mean maybe 30% dmg or so)! (If the sorc bubble isn't up- otherwise bub soaks most/ALL of that damage)

 

2. Sorc uses bubble (if not already bubbled) and overloads, roots op, force speeds away, begins rotation against op. As op tries to close, Sorc electrocutes (stun 4s), dots lightning lightning lightning, hadoukens (if available) if op gets too close, WW, repeat step 2.

 

2b. Bub, overload, roots op, force speeds, heals back up to full, begin rotation. Op gets to close, electrocute/ww, repeat 2b.

 

Fight continues in this fashion until op gives up and vanishes in a cloud of futility. As an op (before and why i switched to healing) i couldn't close crap with a sorc cause they could bub and run even if rotated in my stuns without maxing resolve. As a sorc, i can easily take out ops using the methods i described above.

 

So please, stop the qq against ops. BW has removed all our teeth. We're much less dangerous dead and waiting in a wz then stunlocked and dying when actually on the wz, which is basically our two functions at this point if you haven't given up and switched to healing, like myself.

 

inb4 l2p your classes blarglblarglblargl

[beetz]

Maybe they should just delete the class.

 

Its incredibly boring/annoying to play with no gap closer and it does sub par dps.

[Morticoccus]

It has nothing to do with balance actually.... nothing at all. Ops as of right now work perfectly as intended. They can (and still will) be used in PvP premades to stunlock a target, giving a moderate amount of burst while another sustained damage melee that can have some mobility problems *coughwatchmensentinelcough* helps to lock them down and finish them off.

 

The mechanic of a stealth burst is was game developers call Anti-Fun. Basically the concept is, somebody is going to be happy they got a kill and somebody is going to be angry they died. Is the person who died angry because they died due to lack of skill/minor mistakes? Or are they angry because for 10 seconds they couldn't do anything but watch their HP drop... Anti-Fun, and its bad for business.

 

Mobility problems?

Watchman is pretty much THE most mobile build/class combo aside from tanksin hybrids. We are basically the snaredown crew, we make EVERYONE ELSE have mobility problems...

[Howbadisbad]

It has nothing to do with balance actually.... nothing at all. Ops as of right now work perfectly as intended. They can (and still will) be used in PvP premades to stunlock a target, giving a moderate amount of burst while another sustained damage melee that can have some mobility problems *coughwatchmensentinelcough* helps to lock them down and finish them off.

 

 

No they won't, because unlike Operatives, other classes can deal higher damage AND perform this so called "stun lock". Not to mention the fact that they are more mobile with more utility and more surviveability.

 

The only way Operatives would be working 'as intended' is if Operatives were intended to be the worst class in the game by a substantial margin. Since we are talking about Bioware's balance team, chances are that Operatives are working as intended, which is disgusting.

[scorpinot]

My favorite play style is the stealth rogue-like burst damage type so I rolled a scoundrel with the concealment tree in mind, got full rakata for raiding and have been working up to BM. My effort leveling and gearing up seems in vain if all I can bring to raids is a reduction for overall dps, and what group would bring a concealment scoundrel to rated warzones?

 

statement from Greg Zoeller:

 

If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

 

Every class already has a 4second stun, if a 1.5second stun is such a big deal take it away and give us more damage. Assassins should get to keep their 1.5sec/incombat spike stun though, after all their 4second stun only has a 30m range. All we have vs assassins is ONE high damaging skill that can only be used once during a fight and flashbang.

 

Nerfing some people's favorite spec into the ground making them undesirable for people who just want to play competitve pvp is likely to decrease the likelyhood of them re-subscribing also. Having a sub-par character isn't much fun. Since it's the least played class it's alright though; too bad for us, we'll just have to make an alt or go healing spec.

Edited March 23, 2012 by scorpinot

[hulkweazel]

The mechanic of a stealth burst is was game developers call Anti-Fun. Basically the concept is, somebody is going to be happy they got a kill and somebody is going to be angry they died. Is the person who died angry because they died due to lack of skill/minor mistakes? Or are they angry because for 10 seconds they couldn't do anything but watch their HP drop... Anti-Fun, and its bad for business.

The developers CREATED the class as such. If they don't want it to be like that, then they need to NOT MAKE THE CLASS like that, not nerf it until people stop playing it.

 

BTW, I highly doubt it is "working as intended" as anyone who has played a concealment Op for any amount of time will realize how many poor design decisions it has.