Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Serrowherrow]

Spam harder bro.

 

On topic : Pyrotechs should have gained a buff for other specs rather than a nerf for the only viable spec.

 

But no, bioware just nerfs our only spec and decides to buff marauders, which are insanely strong , and leave assassins un nerfed.

 

Agreed.

 

This forum would go up in flames if bioware decided to nerf Darkness assassins into the dirt without buffing their other two trees, there simply wouldn't be -anything- for them to be viable at in 50s pvp then.

 

The situation is the same here - sure you -can- go tank, tanky DPS, or the middle DPS tree, but you can't do anything another class can do way better. And after 1.2, the niche that pyro/assault held will be very loose, if it's still there at all.

 

Same thing with Marauders - My 50 main is specced annihilation because I pvp all the time, what's the only really viable spec for pvp right now? Anni. If it was nerfed -down- to the standard of the other two trees, then anything I did would be gimped on him. Again, forums up in flames.

 

But I guess people just remember the times that darn Pyro/Vanguard got really lucky and got three-back-to-back crits on them, but not the times when they laughed as that same person hit them like a wet noodle when they didn't proc.

 

Certainly going to have more times like the latter with 1.2.

[Varicite]

Agreed.

 

This forum would go up in flames if bioware decided to nerf Darkness assassins into the dirt without buffing their other two trees, there simply wouldn't be -anything- for them to be viable at in 50s pvp then.

 

The situation is the same here - sure you -can- go tank, tanky DPS, or the middle DPS tree, but you can't do anything another class can do way better. And after 1.2, the niche that pyro/assault held will be very loose, if it's still there at all.

 

Same thing with Marauders - My 50 main is specced annihilation because I pvp all the time, what's the only really viable spec for pvp right now? Anni. If it was nerfed -down- to the standard of the other two trees, then anything I did would be gimped on him. Again, forums up in flames.

 

But I guess people just remember the times that darn Pyro/Vanguard got really lucky and got three-back-to-back crits on them, but not the times when they laughed as that same person hit them like a wet noodle when they didn't proc.

 

Certainly going to have more times like the latter with 1.2.

 

Deception Sins are more than viable, I'm not sure what you mean here. Even Madness Sin is still more viable than our current AP tree.

[Varicite]

pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell

 

 

if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong.

 

 

 

you can hit up to around 8k railshots when they crit against any target because of the 90% armor pen and 30% crit damage bonus ontop of the other damage increases from procs.

 

ive seen many pyrotechs flame dot champion+ players followed by a rail shot and rocket punch and killing them with those 3 abilitys.not only that they have a 30% chance with 1 ability and a 60% chance wit another to reset railshot/high impact bolt from its 15 second cd and cost nothing to cast

 

 

im sorry but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could of just put it simple.

 

powertechs/vanguards dps needs a nerf

 

lol, I was waiting for one of these guys who has no clue what they're talking about to come spout nonsense. It's been a little while.

 

I'm sorry, but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could have just put it simple:

 

"I don't know anything about Powertech/Vanguards except what I read on Torhead tooltips, but I don't like your class, so I'm going to cry nerf!".

[Agooz]

pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell

 

 

if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong.

 

 

 

you can hit up to around 8k railshots when they crit against any target because of the 90% armor pen and 30% crit damage bonus ontop of the other damage increases from procs.

 

ive seen many pyrotechs flame dot champion+ players followed by a rail shot and rocket punch and killing them with those 3 abilitys.not only that they have a 30% chance with 1 ability and a 60% chance wit another to reset railshot/high impact bolt from its 15 second cd and cost nothing to cast

 

 

im sorry but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could of just put it simple.

 

powertechs/vanguards dps needs a nerf

 

Oh, you've seen, and you've heard, that's the extent of your experience with PTs to come here and say this BS about 8k RS. Why dont you play one to 50, and come back here when you reach 5k, let alone 8k lol.

[carjohnrod]

pyrotech dps railshot tree is OP as hell

 

 

if you can only hit 5k with your railshot you are obviously doing something wrong.

 

 

 

you can hit up to around 8k railshots when they crit against any target because of the 90% armor pen and 30% crit damage bonus ontop of the other damage increases from procs.

 

ive seen many pyrotechs flame dot champion+ players followed by a rail shot and rocket punch and killing them with those 3 abilitys.not only that they have a 30% chance with 1 ability and a 60% chance wit another to reset railshot/high impact bolt from its 15 second cd and cost nothing to cast

 

 

im sorry but typing all that drivel to sound smart is kind of void when you could of just put it simple.

 

powertechs/vanguards dps needs a nerf

 

8k? Can't I get some of whatever drugs your on? I'm a full BM powertech with power/surge mods from the champion enforcer set for agents, with biochem. With power relic + explosive fuel + 15% expertise adrenal, im lucky to get over a 5100 rail on a light armor sorc/fresh 50 medium-light armor class.

[Leoness]

Bioware doesn't know what it's doing.

 

Rank amateurs.

[lilBastahd]

bumping this tread

[cashogy]

bumping this tread

 

cool, but bioware wont be changing anything. their lack of response has made that clear enough.

 

swtor is just going to be a revolving door of nerfs. whatever class is cried about the most on the forums after each patch will get a nerf in the following patch.

 

there are already cries for nerfs of sin/shadows in 1.3, and the 1.2 changes arent even on live yet.

 

bioware needs to start actually using some of the metrics that they claim to have, because there is no way in hell that they would support the decisions bioware has made thus far

[lilBastahd]

cool, but bioware wont be changing anything. their lack of response has made that clear enough.

 

swtor is just going to be a revolving door of nerfs. whatever class is cried about the most on the forums after each patch will get a nerf in the following patch.

 

there are already cries for nerfs of sin/shadows in 1.3, and the 1.2 changes arent even on live yet.

 

bioware needs to start actually using some of the metrics that they claim to have, because there is no way in hell that they would support the decisions bioware has made thus far

 

but that's the thing, I haven't been hearing cries for nerfs on vanguard AS or pyro PTs. This nerf just doesn't seem like it was actually thought out by BW, and it was just thrown in there without realizing what it will actually do.

[Kaarsa]

but that's the thing, I haven't been hearing cries for nerfs on vanguard AS or pyro PTs. This nerf just doesn't seem like it was actually thought out by BW, and it was just thrown in there without realizing what it will actually do.

 

This nerf looks to be perfectly thought out by BW because of minimal impact of 6 sec ICD on sustained dps, big impact on burst damage and quite big decrease in chance of long no-proc periods (math already provided in this thread and in PT forum, even confirmed by founder of this thread).

 

This is why I think BW is not responding to cries about this change and is not doing any new changes to pyro on PTS (currently they are deploying PTS patch, so I may be wrong;))

[Terrorshard]

Bump this thread. 1.2 is going to suuuuck for vanguards. Heavy nerf + other classes buffed is going to put it way down on the food chain.

[Ryotknife]

This nerf looks to be perfectly thought out by BW because of minimal impact of 6 sec ICD on sustained dps, big impact on burst damage and quite big decrease in chance of long no-proc periods (math already provided in this thread and in PT forum, even confirmed by founder of this thread).

 

This is why I think BW is not responding to cries about this change and is not doing any new changes to pyro on PTS (currently they are deploying PTS patch, so I may be wrong;))

 

 

the chance of a no proc period barely changes, and sustained will take quite a hit too. it is an extremely poorly thought out nerf that does a good job of nerfing burst while breaking every single other part of the class in the process. the average length of a proc goes from 4.5 seconds to 9 seconds.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Kaarsa]

the chance of a no proc period barely changes, and sustained will take quite a hit too. it is an extremely poorly thought out nerf that does a good job of nerfing burst while breaking every single other part of the class in the process.

 

Chance for not getting proc for 9 seconds now (because 9 sec is RP CD) is over 9%.

 

Chance for not getting a proc in 1.2 for 9 sec (and using 2 abilities less for actually getting it) is around 6,5%. About 30% decrease.

 

Maybe you will tell me that increased chance for proc on Fb is not meaningfull too, because it is only 15%? It is 50% increase. It IS meaningful.

 

Sustained = in a long run = number of procs is close to statistical average. Check yourself how current sustainable rotation looks under this assumption and how it will look in 1.2. Hint. Exactly the same. Read this topic, somewhere around page 20 you will find nice Busterdude posts with nice spreadsheet confirming this. And he is the one who started this "nerf is too hard" thread.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Varicite]

This nerf looks to be perfectly thought out by BW because of minimal impact of 6 sec ICD on sustained dps, big impact on burst damage and quite big decrease in chance of long no-proc periods (math already provided in this thread and in PT forum, even confirmed by founder of this thread).

 

This is why I think BW is not responding to cries about this change and is not doing any new changes to pyro on PTS (currently they are deploying PTS patch, so I may be wrong;))

 

It's a nerf to our heat management, plain and simple, and puts us out of whack w/ the other two specs, and even further behind on regen than we were before.

 

That doesn't seem to be perfectly thought out at all, unless BW seriously intends for us to use Rapid Shots after every single ability. That would be like an Assassin who had to use Saber Strike after EVERYTHING, or a Marauder who was stuck spamming Assault after every single attack.

 

It doesn't sound like how it's supposed to work to me, and no other class has such a poor resource mechanic that they have to resort to this.

[Varicite]

Chance for not getting proc for 9 seconds now (because 9 sec is RP CD) is over 9%.

 

Chance for not getting a proc in 1.2 for 9 sec (and using 2 abilities less for actually getting it) is around 6,5%. About 30% decrease.

 

Maybe you will tell me that increased chance for proc on Fb is not meaningfull too, because it is only 15%? It is 50% increase. It IS meaningful.

 

Sustained = in a long run = number of procs is close to statistical average. Check yourself how current sustainable rotation looks under this assumption and how it will look in 1.2. Hint. Exactly the same. Read this topic, somewhere around page 20 you will find nice Busterdude posts with nice spreadsheet confirming this. And he is the one who started this "nerf is too hard" thread.

 

You're looking at the "worst-case" scenario of "no-proc" periods, which is lessened by this change, you're right.

 

You're completely disregarding the complete absence of "many-proc" periods, which are eliminated by this change.

 

You're also disregarding the "best-case" scenario of "quick proc" periods is lengthened by this change, putting our average heat venting at longer intervals than they are currently.

 

It doesn't matter if the "no-proc" period is lessened if the "quick proc" period is being lengthened to the point where heat management is going to be a problem regardless.

 

It's basically like saying "I like the fact that my car broke down today, because now I don't have to worry about it breaking down next week." It still broke down.

 

We're still going to overheat faster, and vent heat slower.

 

You seem to be looking at this from a DPS/burst perspective, which is understandable, as that was what the change was aimed at curbing. WE are talking about the underlying change to our heat venting mechanic, and its overall impact in situations where you cannot simply use a controlled PvE rotation in a static fight.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Varicite

[Ryotknife]

Chance for not getting proc for 9 seconds now (because 9 sec is RP CD) is over 9%.

 

Chance for not getting a proc in 1.2 for 9 sec (and using 2 abilities less for actually getting it) is around 6,5%. About 30% decrease.

 

Maybe you will tell me that increased chance for proc on Fb is not meaningfull too, because it is only 15%? It is 50% increase. It IS meaningful.

 

Sustained = in a long run = number of procs is close to statistical average. Check yourself how current sustainable rotation looks under this assumption and how it will look in 1.2. Hint. Exactly the same. Read this topic, somewhere around page 20 you will find nice Busterdude posts with nice spreadsheet confirming this. And he is the one who started this "nerf is too hard" thread.

 

....did you even look at the numbers that you wrote?

 

okay, so out of 100 times that i use a 9 second attack rotation, pre 1.2 9 out of 100 rotations will yield 0 procs. in 1.2 6 out of 100 rotations yield 0 procs.

 

#$%^(%$ WOOOO! it SHOULD be nearly at zero instead, seeing how they removed good RNG.

 

if i had 1% crit and it got buffed to a 2% crit, thats a 100% increase! holy crap! too bad that increase is still meaningless to the overall metagame.

 

according to your logic, going from 1% crit to 2% crit is just as meaningful and have as big of an impact as going from 50% crit to 100% crit. now after a railshot proc, we will either be auto attacking for 6 seconds or using thermal detonator and autoattacking for 4.5 seconds.

 

so exciting!

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Kaarsa]

*sigh* I sometimes wonder why people are not reading everything about topic of their interests or just ignore simple things already stated, even in this thread.

 

So, I will repeat myself, this time using big letters in crucial moments:

 

On average you will went heat using PPA proc after every 7,5 sec, you have over 80% chance for that to happen.

 

You will need one (ONE) rapid shots to maintain sustainable dps without meaningful overheating.

 

It will be something like this:

 

RS > rapid shots > anything that cost 16 heat > RP/FB(if RP is on CD) > FB > RS

 

Net gain 2 heat after such sequence.

 

So, one more time.

 

Rapid shots ONCE in every FIVE abilities. Not avery other ability. Not 40% of time. Usually 20% of time. And since you have vent heat, you can go reckless with heat when you need it, every 1,5 minute (and when you expect to die ofc;)).

 

You can still generate powerful burst, with higher chance of success, but lower maximum damage using something like this:

 

FB (PPA proc) > anything (rapid shots if you want to conserve heat, FB if you go all out) > TD > RS > RP(60% for PPA) > RS + TD explosion

 

Is this as good as TD > RS > RP (45%) > RS (explosion) > FB (30%) > RS?

 

No it is not. And you will never do something like this again. It is a burst-nerf. Get over it. It is not a nerf for anything else (or not a meaningful one, anyway).

 

PS. To above poster - didnt you noticed that worse case scenario now is 6 tries for proc and in 1.2 is only 4? That in worse-case now you will get yourself into really badly looking heat management problem because everytime you use rapid shots you loose chance for proc and potentialy extends period of being useless? And that in current system TD is actually a dps decrease because of no chance to proc PPA? Basicaly everything other than RP or FB is a dps decrease becasue of lost chance for PPA.

 

And what is a chance of 3 procs in the row anyway now? 4% with RP, 2,7% without RP? And you talk to me about using small numbers?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Ryotknife]

here is the problem you are failing to see.

 

most of our attacks are crap by themselves, especially our spamable attack. the only reason we use them, is because they proc something. flame burst damage, even though it goes through armor, it beyond pitiful (crits for less than 2k). however, it procs a nice dot and can proc a free powerful attack.

 

the thing is...why use a crappy attack when the dot is already in place and if the proc ICD is running? you wouldnt.

 

so, thermal detonator! 15 second CD....

incendary missile? crap for damage and really high heat.

rocket punch? decent damage, 9 second CD, but has the highest chance to proc railshot.

 

annnddd.....thats it. i already auto attack more so than my jugg who gains resources via autoattacking, in 1.2 ill be using auto attack about 40-50% of the time now, keeping my heat near zero unless an aoe opportunity presents itself.

 

now, lets compare this to my veng jugg (not rage)

 

smash = free attack

sundering assault - deals much more damage than autoattack while giving resources on a 5 sec CD, and gives armor pen

force scream - high damage due to it always critting, 12 sec CD

impale- high damage, 15 sec CD

shatter - 9 seconds CD

ravage - high damage, free, 30 sec CD with talents to refresh it

 

vicous throw

saber throw

 

etc etc.

 

before 1.2, i would autoattack just to keep my heat down. now, ill autoattack if i need to keep my heat down OR if i have nothing better to use, which would be MOST of the time now.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Kaarsa]

here is the problem you are failing to see.

 

most of our attacks are crap by themselves, especially our spamable attack. the only reason we use them, is because they proc something. flame burst damage, even though it goes through armor, it beyond pitiful (crits for less than 2k). however, it procs a nice dot and can proc a free powerful attack.

 

the thing is...why use a crappy attack when the dot is already in place and if the proc ICD is running? you wouldnt.

 

so, thermal detonator! 15 second CD....

incendary missile? crap for damage and really high heat.

rocket punch? decent damage, 9 second CD, but has the highest chance to proc railshot.

 

annnddd.....thats it. i already auto attack more so than my jugg who gains resources via autoattacking, in 1.2 ill be using auto attack about 40-50% of the time now, keeping my heat near zero unless an aoe opportunity presents itself.

 

And now I officialy lost you. You already use alot of rapid shots. I can see why, you dont want to overheat because of crappy luck on PPA procs. After change, you will still use alot of rapid shots, but why 40-50%? I cant undestand that. From heat venting standpoint, using rapids shots 40% of time is pointless (FB is better damage). So, why?

 

Additionally, now using any of our 2 stuns is damage loss (no proc). TD is damage loss (I know, 15 sec cd, so you can use it every 2 "rotations"). You can now use those skills without loosing so much damage (TD will be dmg increase, and stuns will be only los of 1 FB, which as you said, has rather crappy dmg (not that I agree with that opinion, which other class has spamable insta attack that slows and crit for more than 2k?)). And yes, in pvp you usually use stuns because you need them now, not because it is a good moment from proc getting and heat management point of view, but you still have around 40% chance that your stun will be used in "proc-gap" period.

[Nmaharg]

Powertechs will still do massive damage. The only change is you'll have to auto shot once or twice more in between the 4 skills you use. Stop whining. You have some of the highest dmg output in the game and can do it using only 4 moves, really only 3.

[Varicite]

Powertechs will still do massive damage. The only change is you'll have to auto shot once or twice more in between the 4 skills you use. Stop whining. You have some of the highest dmg output in the game and can do it using only 4 moves, really only 3.

 

Hey, man, that's not exactly what I'd call a benefit for my class... Makes it pretty boring at times. :c

 

Now that I get to see how many buttons the other classes get to push, I'm jealous. Not saying they are harder (they really aren't), but it makes you feel like you have a bit more control of the situation.

[Sathid]

The nerf is way too big...It's ridiculous. gonna leave this game if it goes live. That's it.

 

You dont even know what a nerf is.

[cashogy]

but that's the thing, I haven't been hearing cries for nerfs on vanguard AS or pyro PTs. This nerf just doesn't seem like it was actually thought out by BW, and it was just thrown in there without realizing what it will actually do.

 

youre joking right?

 

over the last month there has been countless threads of people crying that they were hit repeatedly for epic damage from rail shots. they regularly blow the numbers of out proportion, claiming to get hit with 5-7k rail shots often.

 

in reality, pyrotech is capable of some nasty spike dps, but has mediocre resource management at best and has a very strict rotation for producing the best results. assuming youve got a WZ expertise stim on, you might break 5k on a rail shot if your target has weak armor resists. however, that is not the norm, yet bad players came to the forums in droves claiming that Pyrotech was OP.

 

a dps class that is good at doing dps? say it isnt so.....

[Ryotknife]

youre joking right?

 

over the last month there has been countless threads of people crying that they were hit repeatedly for epic damage from rail shots. they regularly blow the numbers of out proportion, claiming to get hit with 5-7k rail shots often.

 

in reality, pyrotech is capable of some nasty spike dps, but has mediocre resource management at best and has a very strict rotation for producing the best results. assuming youve got a WZ expertise stim on, you might break 5k on a rail shot if your target has weak armor resists. however, that is not the norm, yet bad players came to the forums in droves claiming that Pyrotech was OP.

 

a dps class that is good at doing dps? say it isnt so.....

 

even though triple railshot crits are very unlikely (i think its around .2%), they do happen, and when it does it is complete bull#$%. which is why im not against the concept of the ICD, but they need to change other aspects of the class as well since pyro pts entire focus was getting railshot procs. the other individual abilities do not stand up on their own as damage abilities.

[cashogy]

even though triple railshot crits are very unlikely (i think its around .2%), they do happen, and when it does it is complete bull#$%. which is why im not against the concept of the ICD, but they need to change other aspects of the class as well since pyro pts entire focus was getting railshot procs. the other individual abilities do not stand up on their own as damage abilities.

 

ive been playing full pyrotech for a while now, and i have never, ever, ever gotten 3 procs in a row.

 

add to that the fact that rail shot needs to crit to actually do decent damage (being weapon damage it hits like a wet noodle otherwise), the chance of the triple rail shot where all 3 are crits is like winning the lottery; its not something that is easily, if at all, repeatable or reproducible.

 

bioware cannot make such a sweeping nerf of a class based on a chain of events that has such a small chance of occuring.

 

they claim to have all these fancy metrics to understand the mechanics of the game, but if that was true they would have already known that there was no need to change the pyrotech spec at all. bioware's class changes are based solely on the responses from the overwhelming terribad player population.

 

pyrotech was fine. in the hands of a good player it was a devastating weapon, but that is so with any class.

 

bioware is not making any further changes to pyrotech, that is clear enough.