Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[busterbone]

Yea, removing RNG would be great, but I would not count on it.

 

About adding 1,5 sec between RS - point is, you are not adding anything. In my example, currently you need to use 1 rapid shot into rotation to maintain heat, which ends with 3xFB, rapid shots and RS in Q rotation, 5 skills, 7,5 sec to execute full rotation. So, on average nothing will change in this department in 1.2, still 7,5 sec between RS.

 

I think you have the current rotation wrong then. By your calculations, FBx3 and 1 rail shot is unsustainable, correct? Currently, the solution is to replace a Flame Burst with an auto-attack in order to be sustainable, which is what I thought you meant. The current solution is not to add an auto-attack, which is what I now know you meant.

 

In other words, a sustainable pre-1.2 rotation would be:

RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA

Not:

RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA

As you suggested.

 

The rotation you suggest is equivalent to what our rotation will be after 1.2, which is why you think we aren't losing anything with this change. Unfortunately this is not the case, because our current rotation is RS FB FB AA RS, not RS FB FB FB AA RS.

 

Now that you know this, try re-read my post at the top of this page and I think it will make more sense. It will show you why a rotation of RS FB FB AA is superior both DPS-wise and heat-wise to a rotation of RS FB FB FB AA (which we will be forced to use post-1.2).

 

You are right, they took away good side of RNG, but bad side is relieved now considerably (at least on paper).

Currently there is a 9% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA, post-1.2 there is a 7% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA. I don't know if I would say that a 2% reduction is being "relieved considerably".

 

Put it this way, currently there is a 13.5% chance you can open up a fight with 3 back to back Rail Shots. Post-1.2 there is a 0% chance you can do this. That is being relieved considerably I still stand by the notion that if you completely remove the chance of good RNG from a RNG-dependent class, you should completely remove the chance of bad RNG too (especially if you are also nerfing the burst, sustained DPS, and resource management of said class).

 

My conclusion is that while it is a nerf, it is not class-breaking. PT pyro will still be viable and fun class with good dps and nice burst potential. Different than before, but still strong. We will see:)

 

We shall.

[Monterone]

Thanks for the post OP.

 

Honestly, I'll be ok with the change to pyro but I really don't see what the issue was in the first place. Like you said, 0.45 x 0.3 x 0.3 gives us a 4% chance to proc 3 railshots for a high burst of damage. That's 1 in every 25 rotations - hardly overpowered.

 

On my deception assassin I can do far more burst with greater consistency, albeit a different play style. But if I build up my Shock and Discharge, then hit Recklessness I can crit 4 different abilities in a row and all four have the ability to crit for around 5k. Shock followed by Discharge, then Maul and Assassinate. And I can set this up with Recklessness every 1.25 minutes.

 

I don't see what the big deal is with how Pyro is set up now; so what if someone can maybe proc 3 railshots in a row. Hardly overpowered compared to the burst of other classes.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Monterone

[Assaultrooper]

Thanks for the post OP.

 

Honestly, I'll be ok with the change to pyro but I really don't see what the issue was in the first place. Like you said, 0.45 x 0.3 x 0.3 gives us a 4% chance to proc 3 railshots for a high burst of damage. That's 1 in every 25 rotations - hardly overpowered.

 

On my deception assassin I can do far more burst with greater consistency, albeit a different play style. But if I build up my Shock and Discharge, then hit Recklessness I can crit 4 different abilities in a row and all four have the ability to crit for around 5k. Shock followed by Discharge, then Maul and Assassinate. And I can set this up with Recklessness every 1.25 minutes.

 

I don't see what the big deal is with how Pyro is set up now; so what if someone can maybe proc 3 railshots in a row. Hardly overpowered compared to the burst of other classes.

 

Completely honest I never considered my burst "OP" given the actual odds of it happening :/ I know I can get reliably more burst from a deception assassin (I saw as one 1-shooted like literally one shotted a noobie) and way more pressure from a marauder...

[CaptainInsano]

Pyrotechs should be counting their blessings that they didn't receive much harsher nerfs. The burst is so over the top there's no defending it.

[Theology]

Pyrotechs should be counting their blessings that they didn't receive much harsher nerfs. The burst is so over the top there's no defending it.

 

The nerf completely cripples the 2 main aspects of our class.

-Damage

-Resource management

 

Rail Shot is white damage and is often deflected, dodged, parried, etc. Also, if it doesnt crit, (~60% chance to not crit), it does like 1300 damage.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Theology

[Ryotknife]

Pyrotechs should be counting their blessings that they didn't receive much harsher nerfs. The burst is so over the top there's no defending it.

 

considering that pyro was just gutted? it will be harder to justify playing pyro when AP may very well do around the same dps as 1.2 pyro, and have better defensive abilities, mobility, and utility.

 

perhaps gutted is not the right term....no longer a viable option. there, that is better.

 

if the AP changes dont pan out, pts will be forced into ironfist, a tank/dps hybrid that does pitiful damage but has more utility and survivability.

 

that, and the spec that i do play, carolina parakeet, will be gone in 1.2 (getting my fun in now while i can). although in hindsight, maybe it was not such a hot idea to name a spec after an extinct bird.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Chiefy]

i procced back to back RS against a jedi sentinel and still lost

 

fact :-P

 

wheres his nerf i ask you

 

(its actually very sad, but very true), i did catch him at 30 stacks of centered but that is none the less oblivious to the point... i literally procced back to back in a fight i engaged with at full hp and left dead... :s

 

lol, im the one being nerfed thou, as glowsticks is the way to go clearly

 

(p.s in all seriousness, i understand this happened as most likely i was not concentrating or because he had his defensive cd's all up while i was proccing back to back what seemed to be "pointless" RS's on a 600 power (i had also popped relic and crit cd) only to watch my dmg hit for double figures

 

 

ah that is right, sentinels are being "buffed" in upcoming patch, silly me...

 

gg.

[Rabbitfoot]

Yea this nerf is totally over the top.

[Kaarsa]

I think you have the current rotation wrong then. By your calculations, FBx3 and 1 rail shot is unsustainable, correct? Currently, the solution is to replace a Flame Burst with an auto-attack in order to be sustainable, which is what I thought you meant. The current solution is not to add an auto-attack, which is what I now know you meant.

 

In other words, a sustainable pre-1.2 rotation would be:

RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA

Not:

RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA

As you suggested.

 

The rotation you suggest is equivalent to what our rotation will be after 1.2, which is why you think we aren't losing anything with this change. Unfortunately this is not the case, because our current rotation is RS FB FB AA RS, not RS FB FB FB AA RS.

 

Now that you know this, try re-read my post at the top of this page and I think it will make more sense. It will show you why a rotation of RS FB FB AA is superior both DPS-wise and heat-wise to a rotation of RS FB FB FB AA (which we will be forced to use post-1.2).

 

 

Currently there is a 9% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA, post-1.2 there is a 7% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA. I don't know if I would say that a 2% reduction is being "relieved considerably".

 

Put it this way, currently there is a 13.5% chance you can open up a fight with 3 back to back Rail Shots. Post-1.2 there is a 0% chance you can do this. That is being relieved considerably I still stand by the notion that if you completely remove the chance of good RNG from a RNG-dependent class, you should completely remove the chance of bad RNG too (especially if you are also nerfing the burst, sustained DPS, and resource management of said class).

 

 

 

We shall.

 

Can you please explain how replacing FB with rapid shots still lets you proc PPA after every 3 skills on average?

 

RS FB FB AA RS would be a better rotation, but you have only 50% to proc PPA. If you think it is enough to call it average, than I will claim that in 1.2 you will proc PPA after every FB (similar 50% chance). Both claim are false.

[cashogy]

im really getting tired of the complete lack of dev communication regarding this change. the change to PPA was totally unnecessary, the inclusion of a stance requirement was also unneceessary.

 

pyrotech is a dps spec. bioware is basically nerfing the class for doing dps. if you understand the class, you can do a lot of dps. that same logic applies to all other classes tho; good players will always perform exceptionally.

 

whod have thought, a dps class doing dps? inconceivable!

[Macroecon]

But how can you say that PT pyros deal ~15% more damage than a merc pyro? What are you basing this statistic on? Your own experiences? Are you certain that your own, personal experience with "a select group of players" accurately portrays SWTOR class balance as a whole?

 

You also must realize that there are a lot of variables that go in to end-of-WZ damage, such as how many times you die, how many healers are on each team, and whether you get a lot of great DFAs off. Remember, a lot of an end-of-WZ damage is also just AoE.

 

Thus, does a sorc doing 850k damage mean sorcs are better damage dealers than merc pyros, because you only did 600k? Perhaps, but one of their main attacks is also an AoE instant cast, which inflates their dmg. I also think that merc pyros have better on-demand burst.

 

And I'm curious, do you think that citing warzones where multiple players in your "select group" are achieving close to 1 million damage each are the best warzones to decide class balance? Are you sure these aren't just Void Stars where you completely dominate under-geared pugs with a group of the best PvP-ers on your server?

 

In conclusion, I don't think we will be able to provide such hard statistics (such as when you stated PT pyro deals 15% more dmg than a merc pyro) until we get some kind of DPS-meter in-game.

 

Like I said, you can either contemplate my conclusions or ignore it. Doesn't matter because while BW and 90% of the player base may be confused by the current state of ToR game (im)balance, the top players are not.

 

There's just so much about this game that conventional wisdom (as represented by this forum for example) is flat out wrong about. As one example I will cite your implication that high scoring Voidstar matches occur when one team stomps on another. That's exactly the opposite of reality. High scoring (dps) Voidstar matches occur when both sides are equally (or near equally) balanced AND each side is healer heavy (3 or more per team). In that environment the likely game score is 0-0 but the dps machines can spend the entirety of both rounds outputting and not moving. It IS effectively a dps meter.

[Theology]

Top players must be determined by who can aoe spam the most in void star now-a-days.

[busterbone]

Can you please explain how replacing FB with rapid shots still lets you proc PPA after every 3 skills on average?

 

RS FB FB AA RS would be a better rotation, but you have only 50% to proc PPA. If you think it is enough to call it average, than I will claim that in 1.2 you will proc PPA after every FB (similar 50% chance). Both claim are false.

 

Excellent point, I don’t know why I forgot about that. I think I get what you’re saying now: that our overall sustainable DPS isn’t being affected because in theory we should be currently auto-attacking every rotation anyway. Makes sense.

 

I wanted to make sure everything we are theorizing is “right” so I threw it all into a spreadsheet, and I found something that I think you’ll find interesting.

 

Here’s the spreadsheet:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/716/swtor12.png

Let me know if it doesn’t work

 

Like you said, when we are going through a sustainable rotation our DPS doesn’t change with this 1.2 patch. However, look at what happens when we decide to eliminate auto-attacks (let’s say we our in a 30 second “burn” phase in a PVE encounter). You’ll notice that currently if we don’t auto attack, we use 50 heat per 30 second rotation, and instead of the standard 24840 damage per 30 seconds, it increases to 29050 damage. That’s a 17% DPS increase for 50 heat, or 0.34% DPS increase per 1 heat.

 

Now look at what happens when we try to do a 30 second “burn” rotation in 1.2. We only see a 12% DPS increase and it costs us 74 heat, which is a 0.16% DPS increase per 1 heat. Thus, come 1.2 we will get less of a DPS increase should we choose to not auto-attack.

 

You might be thinking, “yea that’s the whole point of this patch, to reduce your burst.” But what I’m talking about here isn’t the “OMG 4 RAIL SHOTS IN A ROW” kind of burst that Bioware wants to get rid of this patch. I’m talking about the option to sacrifice some sustainability in order to increase damage.

 

Now, why am I bothering to bring this up? Well, in PvP anytime you are CC’d or otherwise unable to attack a target you are regaining heat. Many times when we are being attacked, due to Gyroscopic Alignment Jets, we get extra heat. Anytime we use Vent Heat or Thermal Sensor Override, we get extra heat. You can choose to use this “extra heat” you’ve gained in order to increase your DPS, by switching auto-attacks out with Flame Bursts. In 1.2 we won’t be able to use this “extra heat” as effectively, thus our overall DPS is still being nerfed.

 

I want to emphasize however that everything I just said is simply theorycrafting and I said it because I thought you’d be interested by it. For the most part, I agree with what you’ve proved. You’ve actually made me feel better about this patch, because you’ve shown how our sustained DPS isn’t really being nerfed all that hard.

 

My original post wasn’t just about Bioware nerfing our DPS however, it was also about how they eliminated our “feast” RNG but left the “famine” RNG. I still think this should be addressed. But I’ll be honest though, I’m tired of theorycrafting and I really didn’t expect 30 pages of replies. I think at this stage it’s really up to Bioware on how they want to change Pyrotechs. Whatever changes they put through, I guess we’ll just have to adapt. I appreciate the feedback you’ve given so far though.

[Theology]

Kudos for the math, i'm certainly not good enough at it to come up with stuff like this.

 

 

Though our sustainable DPS hasn't taken much of a hit it seems, there still remains alot of other valid concerns and problems that have been posted by various posters. All of which, I feel, would be resolved simply by just making PPA a talent that reduces RS cd to a flat 6 seconds.

[busterbone]

Like I said, you can either contemplate my conclusions or ignore it. Doesn't matter because while BW and 90% of the player base may be confused by the current state of ToR game (im)balance, the top players are not.

 

There's just so much about this game that conventional wisdom (as represented by this forum for example) is flat out wrong about. As one example I will cite your implication that high scoring Voidstar matches occur when one team stomps on another. That's exactly the opposite of reality. High scoring (dps) Voidstar matches occur when both sides are equally (or near equally) balanced AND each side is healer heavy (3 or more per team). In that environment the likely game score is 0-0 but the dps machines can spend the entirety of both rounds outputting and not moving. It IS effectively a dps meter.

 

I just felt like Voidstars where multiple people on your team are getting numbers close to 1 million damage aren't the best way to gauge class balance. I guess I can't argue with you though because you're a "top player" and I'm just a complete noob who's "flat out wrong".

 

And I don't think balancing the game around Void star damage is the right thing to do because so much damage is AoE. Do you think developers say "Oh look, this class does more damage than another class in this 15 minute long AoE fight with hundreds of variables such as deaths/OOC regen-time/stuns/cc/running away when you're at low health/number of healers/travel-time/time spent disarming or arming bombs/constant target switches, let's nerf their single-target DPS!"? No, because buffing/nerfing single-target DPS based on things like overall damage in a warzone is ridiculous based on the mere fact that classes with better AoE will do better damage in Void Star. Not to mention all the other variables listed above.

 

But you know what? Let's stop arguing because it's pointless and whatever Bioware decides to do, they're going to do. We may have strongly disagreed so far, but overall I still appreciate your input and I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to me so far.

[busterbone]

Kudos for the math, i'm certainly not good enough at it to come up with stuff like this.

 

 

Though our sustainable DPS hasn't taken much of a hit it seems, there still remains alot of other valid concerns and problems that have been posted by various posters. All of which, I feel, would be resolved simply by just making PPA a talent that reduces RS cd to a flat 6 seconds.

 

Well, I feel like we've done all we can. It's up to Bioware now I want to thank you too for the time you've put into this thread and for helping to keep it alive over the past week or so!

[Theology]

You did far more than I did. Karsaa has a good point and has too eased my mind, as far as PvE goes. I'm still worried for PvP (as thats mostly what I do.)

 

I'm still standing firm that 4.5 is the magic number for PPA. At 4.5 seconds, it still has the potential to reward us 'feasts', and the ability to screw us with 'famines' too. It will keep our average rail close to 6 seconds which keeps us in line with the other trees as far as heat venting is concerned. I can't think of any reason why 4.5 isn't the optimal number.

[Scotland]

 

Other abilities? If Thermal Detonator is on cooldown the only other damage ability left is auto-attack, which hits for pathetic damage. This is obviously a large DPS decrease.

 

 

this is a huge part of sniper's energy management, using your auto attack.

 

If it is part of 1 dps class rotation, i dont see why it should not be part of everyones.

[Scotland]

(p.s in all seriousness, i understand this happened as most likely i was not concentrating or because he had his defensive cd's all up while i was proccing back to back what seemed to be "pointless" RS's on a 600 power (i had also popped relic and crit cd) only to watch my dmg hit for double figures

 

 

sounds like a l2p issue to me.

[Kaarsa]

Buster, exellent post, thank you.

 

I of course agree with you here, but let me point your attention to 1 thing:

 

29050 - 27720 = 1330

 

1330/29050 = 0,045

 

So, our no AA rotation received 4,5% nerf according to your math.

 

Now, is it so bad?

 

Can you please do the math for 4,5 sec internal CD of PPA with those higher chances for proc? I have an internal feeling that it would be a big buff to PT...

 

EDIT: Sorry, stupid mistake here on my part, nothing to read here:)

Edited March 24, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Dampiel]

Dear OP i read what you posted, and i thought about it very carefully, and then i stopped caring because i play an operative and ive been on the wrong end of the nerf stick MANY times

[Assaultrooper]

Dear OP i read what you posted, and i thought about it very carefully, and then i stopped caring because i play an operative and ive been on the wrong end of the nerf stick MANY times

 

Grats on been slightly-nerfed 1 time ????

[Rabbitfoot]

Kudos for the math, i'm certainly not good enough at it to come up with stuff like this.

 

 

Though our sustainable DPS hasn't taken much of a hit it seems, there still remains alot of other valid concerns and problems that have been posted by various posters. All of which, I feel, would be resolved simply by just making PPA a talent that reduces RS cd to a flat 6 seconds.

 

Yes because all bossfights allow you to stand still and dps

[Shredbull]

This stupid nerf should be reversed, pyrotechs arent that awesome.

[cashogy]

this is a huge part of sniper's energy management, using your auto attack.

 

If it is part of 1 dps class rotation, i dont see why it should not be part of everyones.

 

this.

 

you should be throwing in a few rapid shot attacks anyways as a bh even now.

 

plus, with the new CGC requirement for pyrotech, leading off with rapid shots can apply the dot, and save you 25 heat from incendiary missile.