SWTOR and the Giant Contradiction.

[Frostvein]

Enrage timers are the LAZIEST way to artificially inflate difficulty of an encounter. It basically forces group composition as well - notice how every single hard mode flashpoint is run with 2 dps 1 tank 1 healer? Enrage timers.

 

You know that is the design intent.

 

They don't want groups of 4 tanks 4 healers running 8 man content.

[NotDonnaReed]

For Hard Mode flashpoints, 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer.

 

Just wanted to point out that you can sometimes run with 2 tanks or 2 healers because re-specing is fast and cheap. We've run a few hard modes that way, and while it isn't ideal we did manage to finish.

 

Our shadow tank DPSed a hard mode without respecing and used the same gear, just switched his stance. Our guardian tank had to respec I believe, and I respeced from seer to telekinetic so I could DPS.

[EternalFinality]

You know that is the design intent.

 

They don't want groups of 4 tanks 4 healers running 8 man content.

 

As I said - lazy design.

 

Just wanted to point out that you can sometimes run with 2 tanks or 2 healers because re-specing is fast and cheap. We've run a few hard modes that way, and while it isn't ideal we did manage to finish.

 

Our shadow tank DPSed a hard mode without respecing and used the same gear, just switched his stance. Our guardian tank had to respec I believe, and I respeced from seer to telekinetic so I could DPS.

 

That's not really possible if you aren't already geared. For a fresh 50, which the content is intended for, this is impossible to do.

[RolyartNala]

With the coming logs and training dummies guilds we easily be able to measure their DPS.

No. You'll be able to measure someone's static DPS in a static, non-combat environment. With combat logs, you'll have to evaluate after a raid night, not during.

 

I'm not a huge fan of DPS meters, except when I want to know how well I'm doing overall, how well I'm doing relative to everyone else in a given encounter, and how well everyone else is doing in relation to me. I want to know this information so I can know whether I need to improve, or whether I need to help a teammate improve.

 

Are DPS meters filled with the inviolate truth of someone's inherent worth as a player? No, but they are one more tool to help suss that out.

[Frostvein]

They don't want groups of 4 tanks 4 healers running 8 man content.

As I said - lazy design.

 

Ok, but why is it lazy?

[Ozzone]

Ok, but why is it lazy?

 

Only a few lines of code? Start timer, end timer, start enrage. It isn't hard that's for sure.

[TheThrace]

Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous.

 

Agreed. It makes EVERYTHING a gear check. It downplays the effect actual skill has on raid progression. You can have the most skilled 16 man group in the world but if you simply do not have the gear to meet the required DPS, you wipe. Maybe they do that to slow progression but as we have seen in SWTOR progression is not slow.

 

Now a REAL raiding game RIFT, takes months and months to progress thru the highest tier instance but there are also 11-12 bosses. Enrage timers are also involved but you have clear Hit/Focus ratings and enrages are more of a particular boss mechanic rather than a global mechanic.

[Frostvein]

Only a few lines of code? Start timer, end timer, start enrage. It isn't hard that's for sure.

 

Its an (admittedly) inelegant and simple way to artificially increase the importance of the DPS's role in an encounter.

[Ozzone]

Its an (admittedly) inelegant and simple way to artificially increase the importance of the DPS's role in an encounter.

 

I wasn't trying to figure out a purpose, just stating the fact in coding. It is easy to implement enrage timers instead of spending time to redesign the encounter to make it less of just a pure DPS race.

[EternalFinality]

Ok, but why is it lazy?

 

Locking group makeup is lazy design. Why do they let you bring 4 tanks and 4 healers if you'll never be able to beat the encounter?

[Kubernetic]

LOL

 

Who cares. Just beat EV for the first time last week. Had to make my own guild, since the one i joined previously died, to do it. Sometimes I wonder if you guys want to play videogames..... or just read a bunch of numbers and calculate accordingly.

 

Bioware has said that they dont have DPS meters, threat meters, or target of target because they want players to concentrate on THE GAME, not numbers.

 

Hardcore raiders dont like it? Theres the door. See ya!

 

Totally agreed. Video gamers have been beating game bosses for decades without all of these fancy meters. These kids just want it easy so they can run the calculations.

[EternalFinality]

Totally agreed. Video gamers have been beating game bosses for decades without all of these fancy meters. These kids just want it easy so they can run the calculations.

 

Few bosses in other video games are designed to instantly win if you spend too long fighting them, or cannot win fast enough because you brought the wrong equipment.

Edited March 20, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Ulmius]

It makes sense, if they don't want the environment to where people are judging others based on their dps, then don't use mechanics on bosses that perpetuate the feeling of wanting to do so.

 

I was thinking about it though. If dps didn't matter, then wouldn't groups go into a raid with nothing but healers and a few tanks? After thinking about that for a few minutes I realized that yes, theoretically people could do that, but realistically they wouldn't. People wouldn't want to go into a raid to fight a boss that takes 30 minutes just to kill it. Instead, they would be sure to bring dps so they could kill the boss in a timely fashion. Then again, if a group of players wanted to do that, why stop them? If some group decided they would prefer super long drawn out fights but a higher chance of winning with more heals and more mitigation, then why stop them?

 

Anyway, yes; it is a giant contradiction and they should address the issue. They either want a non combative environment where dps doesn't matter and people won't care about dps and see the need for public logs or damage meters, or they want dps to matter and they should support the ability to check others in a timely fashion instead of this super discombobulated way they are doing it in 1.2.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[EternalFinality]

It makes sense, if they don't want the environment to where people are judging others based on their dps, then don't use mechanics on bosses that perpetuate the feeling of wanting to do so.

 

I was thinking about it though. If dps didn't matter, then wouldn't groups go into a raid with nothing but healers and a few tanks? After thinking about that for a few minutes I realized that yes, theoretically people could do that, but realistically they wouldn't. People wouldn't want to go into a raid to fight a boss that takes 30 minutes just to kill it. Instead, they would be sure to bring dps so they could kill the boss in a timely fashion. Then again, if a group of players wanted to do that, why stop them? If some group decided they would prefer super long drawn out fights but a higher chance of winning with more heals and more mitigation, then why stop them?

 

Anyway, yes; it is a giant contradiction and they should address the issue. They either want a non combative environment where dps doesn't matter and people won't care about dps and see the need for public logs or damage meters, or they want dps to matter and they should support the ability to check others in a timely fashion instead of this super discombobulated way they are doing it in 1.2.

 

Well, there's plenty of solutions. A scaling enrage (25% increased damage after 3 minutes, 75% after 4 minutes, 125% after 5 minutes, etc) would encourage higher dps, but not make it impossible for less balanced groups. After all, with more healers you can easily handle the +25%/+75% time periods. Or have adds spawn in increasing numbers the longer the fight goes on (EV Puzzle for example, but that's not even a boss) which makes it more unmanageable to fight the boss for longer but not impossible.

 

But instead we get a hard "you're all going to die in 1-2 hits, bring more dps or fail" enrage, the laziest design of all lazy enrage deisgns.

Edited March 20, 2012 by EternalFinality

[skinthinner]

Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous.

 

cause taking an hour to kill something is super fun...

 

among many reasons, it forces folks to hunker down and get things right, forces the entire raid/ops team to work together, and keeps things moving.

 

and really...if fun was a micromanagement of mana/force/energy and a practice in real life patience and button combo hitting for extended times.... it ceases to be a game and becomes a lesson in repetition.

 

is it cheap... yeah, it is. I would like to see a better method to do it... but in all it is rather necessary with the attention span of most players around.

[Thundergulch]

I believe I remember seeing a picture from early beta where there were combat logs in the game so gg bioware.

 

yes, there were logs in beta, I wanna say up until about 6 months before release there were logs.

I can't remember how intricate they were, but I know there was a form of combat log for sure.

[Drewser]

It makes sense, if they don't want the environment to where people are judging others based on their dps, then don't use mechanics on bosses that perpetuate the feeling of wanting to do so.

 

I was thinking about it though. If dps didn't matter, then wouldn't groups go into a raid with nothing but healers and a few tanks? After thinking about that for a few minutes I realized that yes, theoretically people could do that, but realistically they wouldn't. People wouldn't want to go into a raid to fight a boss that takes 30 minutes just to kill it. Instead, they would be sure to bring dps so they could kill the boss in a timely fashion. Then again, if a group of players wanted to do that, why stop them? If some group decided they would prefer super long drawn out fights but a higher chance of winning with more heals and more mitigation, then why stop them?

 

Anyway, yes; it is a giant contradiction and they should address the issue. They either want a non combative environment where dps doesn't matter and people won't care about dps and see the need for public logs or damage meters, or they want dps to matter and they should support the ability to check others in a timely fashion instead of this super discombobulated way they are doing it in 1.2.

 

Let's wait and see how long it really takes to check logs in 1.2 before making a blanket statement like that.

[NotDonnaReed]

It makes sense, if they don't want the environment to where people are judging others based on their dps, then don't use mechanics on bosses that perpetuate the feeling of wanting to do so.

 

Agreed.

 

I'm in two minds about the whole issue, because we have people in our guild who are not hard-core raiders. I really like these people, and I want them to complete end game with us (at least on normal mode) because we've all taken this journey together and I would like us to finish it together. I don't feel right about benching people for lackluster raid performance.

 

On the other hand, we have several hard-core raiders in our guild who really want to express their awesomeness in end game, and they feel like the other folks are holding them back.

 

I believe damage meters will help me get the lackluster folks up to a minimum standard so they can finish end game content on normal mode. If they can squeeze out even 5 percent more DPS, which they almost certainly can, we will beat these enrage timers.

 

Then the non-raiders can have fun leveling their alts while the hard-core folks work on hard and nightmare modes.

 

I'm not saying I can't accomplish all this without damage meters, because I fully intend to do just that. However, I think the task would be much easier with real-time, accurate information instead of assumptions based on personality type. For example, maybe my hard-core raiders aren't really as awesome as they think they are. Maybe the laid-back guy who never complains is in fact the highest DPS. Maybe the person who's never raided before is actually holding her own with the big dogs.

 

I personally have never felt threatened by damage meters, because it shows me what is possible and gives me something to aspire to. Also, I believe that everyone is capable of learning and improving over time, and the spirit of competition normally facilitates this process.

 

Yes, I've met my share of egotistical jerks. That's what the ignore list is for.

[Tronzax]

Yes, I've met my share of egotistical jerks. That's what the ignore list is for.

 

That is something I've never quite understood about the anti meter movement. Instead of removing or limiting the use of a tool people use to evalute themselves and their groupmates because some people choose to abuse it, why not just put them on their ignore list so they wouldn't have to deal with that player again in the future? Isn't the point of the ignore list to make it so you don't have to hear from jerks or annoying people? Those people are being jerks and/or annoying, so use the tool that's already available which is specifically designed to deal with that type of person.

 

It's kind of like a car horn. By itself, the horn is a good tool because it can alert other drivers on the road if something is going to happen or if someone needs to draw attention to themselves because they are being chased by someone and need help. However, there are some people that abuse the horn and use it all the time, hold it down and are annoying people that make it miserable for everyone else. Now because there are some people that abuse it, you don't say, "We need to get rid of it." Instead, if someone is using the horn in your neighborhood constantly, you call the police and complain about noise pollution or disturbing the peace and the police come out to deal with it. Just like the car horn, meters are a good tool to have and just like car horns, some people abuse them. When people abuse it you don't say, "Let's get rid of them." Instead you put them on the ignore list and and that's the end of it.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Tronzax

[DawnAskham]

cause taking an hour to kill something is super fun...

 

among many reasons, it forces folks to hunker down and get things right, forces the entire raid/ops team to work together, and keeps things moving.

 

and really...if fun was a micromanagement of mana/force/energy and a practice in real life patience and button combo hitting for extended times.... it ceases to be a game and becomes a lesson in repetition.

 

is it cheap... yeah, it is. I would like to see a better method to do it... but in all it is rather necessary with the attention span of most players around.

 

Timers are more a gear check than a skill check right now. And with the lack of measurement tools ultimatly leads people to outgear rather than outplay the content, which means we aren't helping our players get better, just helping them get better gear.

 

In a given tier, it may make sense to have an early gear check boss that has a hard enrage timer used as sort of 'If you aren't this tall you are not eligible to go on this ride' gate, but just sticking an enrage timer on every boss and then calling it 'hard mode' is pretty ridiculous.

 

And for hard / nightmare mode, players SHOULD be forced to pay attention and deal with complex mechanics in order to beat the content, not get enough gear so they can brute force through the content.

 

Assuming the developers deliver on their statements to create more difficult operations where hard and nightmare modes have increasingly difficult mechanics to beat, I imagine quite a few 'hard-mode' players of today will have to step up their play or go enjoy story mode.

 

Oh and having measurement tools in game would help us identify and help these players so as many as are willing to work to improve can take on the more difficult challenges I hope this game delivers.

Edited March 20, 2012 by DawnAskham

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Tronzax]

Well, here is a perspective of a “theoretical” anti-meter. I say theoretical, because I only solo, so, what do I care? However, here it is…

 

With meters, you can objectively go…

 

Skill Tree Skill # = A, E and G are great.

Skill Tree Skill # = B, F and I are so-so.

Skill Tree Skill # = C, D and H are crap.

 

Without meters, people might get a sense of this. But, overall, a person that has skills C, D and H SHOULD be able to clear content. If not… why are those skills in the game? True question.

 

Very often, the answer is “Those skills aren’t tuned enough”, then we get the massive amounts of anger vs how skills A, E and G are overpowered and need a nerf… skills C, D and H are useless and need a boost.

 

I’m probably alone in this, but ignorance is bliss. A character with the 41 “worst” skill point allocations in the game should be viable. Otherwise, why do we have those choices at all? Why not have 41 auto-allocated skill points (or gear, or whatever other character choices people have) based on your chosen role and 1-3 personal definitions of that role and it’ll be min-maxed, and have a good day.

 

If I was a raider, I’d be SO upset at meters, because often, NOT ALWAYS, for often, it becomes…

 

“The ONLY way is = Strategy A, Gear B, Skill selection C” with 1-3 tweaks.

 

I find that very limiting. Personally (here comes heretical statement) I think games would be better if ALL numbers were hidden. It’s just “a lightsaber”. Not “+12 STR, +14 END, etc…, and you go by “feel” of what is best.

 

Or, you have some poor dev and team number crunch every single gear / skill / group / raid combination, in every permutation, to make sure the balance is just right. I’d quit. Day 1. No that’s wrong. I’d have never applied for that job. I don’t know who would.

 

Basically, the problem I see with metrics is that it’s limiting, not freeing. If a person has Skill H, and objectively through metrics, we realise that skill H is “bad”, then the problem shouldn't be avoid skill H. It should be the encounter tuning. Skill H should be picked by some people. It's shouldn't be there as "the wrong choice in the levelling system" as if it was a choose your own adventure (Good Choice, Neutral Choice, Bad Choice) system... if that makes sense.

 

I will admit, no matter how you tune the group encounter, there will be a problem. Hence why I don’t group.

 

Version A = Make the encounter super-challenging.

Ergo, now, you NEED to use metrics, because things are so hard, min-maxing is the only way to pass. But, players that want freedom… don’t raid.

 

Version B = Make the encounter super-easy.

Ergo, now, no matter how your character is built, you can find a way to pass the encounter. But, players that want a challenge… are bored… and don’t raid (and likely unsub).

 

Version C = Make the encounter in the mythical half way.

Ergo, both sides are somewhat unhappy. And, since negativity seems to rule these days, both sides complain, and mostly everyone gripes at each other… and they… don’t raid.

 

I actually don’t have a solution. Hence why I don’t raid. If you have one, please, send it up the line. But I actually think that you will attract numbers people to raids / hard groups with metrics that push efficiency. You’ll lose people that want freedom to try X. If you don’t have metrics and don’t need them because the encounters can be passed easily, you lose the challenge seekers.

 

So, as I said, I personally couldn’t care less. I solo. But, talking to other people, this is my impression why those that oppose metrics feel that way… lack of freedom.

 

TL;DR = Though I don’t personally care, some oppose metrics because it pushes you towards THE build / gear / etc… to play with… and you get penalized for “trying something out.” Plus why are the other “sub-par” skills (for example) (or gear, or whatever) even there if we weren’t supposed to use them?

 

The problem with your entire argument, and don't take offense to this, but you are applying a single player mentality to multi-player group oriented game where in order to clear content you have to have the group succeed. With enrage timer mechanics, your dps actually matters and just because you have more fun with a weird spec and gear setup, if you can't put out the required dps, then you are in a sense, a detriment to your group as opposed to an asset.

 

Now as someone said before, if they didn't have enrage timers, then technically player builds and damage meter output wouldn't matter. For example, one suggestion in this thread was to instead of an "arbitrary dps requirement" or a certain amount of dps required and if you don't have it, you wipe, bosses should have some super massive attack and if one person gets hit by it, then the whole group wipes. If everyone avoids it, then you get to continue with the fight. That way it's group skill and coordination that matters instead of player output and of course, individual skill is still an important part of the fight.

[macbethian]

An unfortunate side effect of enrage timers is that some game mechanics simply get ignored as well. Take HK-47 in Boarding Party for instance. No one, and I mean no one, kills the turrets while doing the boss. Why? Drawing DPS away from the boss means you are more likely to hit the enrage and fail. It's clear that the intention was that groups would have to kill the turrets first, or at the very least kill one to ease the healing burden. As it stands, you tank and spank until HK is down then kill the turrets. This makes for an extremely boring fight.

 

The sad fact is that most bosses end up being tank/spank fights. I can't honestly name one that requires any sort of thought or practice for me to defeat, especially as a healer. Even the "don't stand in the red" barely applies. There are a few, but not many, and one of them in particular (D7 final boss) was just obnoxious. Getting chain targeted by the claw as a healer makes for one interesting fight...

 

Though in all fairness, D7's final boss was one of the most complicated and interesting fights I had the experience of fighting. There was some measure of creativity and variety there. I would love to see more boss fights that had a broader range of mechanics that need to be learned and reacted to.

[Vylettes]

Without Enrage timers, u could probably duo most bosses in the game, they would just take a while to kill.