RAVIAH Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 main outrage is if you don't kill them in the beginning and it lasts any length at all your pretty much screwed. energy might be better but what do we use it for since most of our abilities will be on cd. pvp it could be ok. but it will definitely hurt operation sustained dps. so for those who like to dps operations as a scoundrel it is frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaglorArcanist Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 so what the problem ppl will roll scoundrel/operative healers:) they got buffed and with 3 upperhands they can provide insane burst heal ;p If someone is burst hitted... meh you can do still poor. We can prepare someone to recive big damages, but if the focus switch, we have big problems. EM still heal around the same, the casting time for the bigs is the same. A sawbone build is burst in heal, but cant counter burst, we have no shielding or similar. SRM need 2 stack to be effective Kolto cloud even reworked need is time, and spamming EM would at max top his life before we run out of UH or we still loked on him spamming the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) so what the problem ppl will roll scoundrel/operative healers:) they got buffed and with 3 upperhands they can provide insane burst heal ;p I don't think you understand how sawbones works. Emergency Medpack is a sustain tool, but is not a great burst healing solution. Underworld Medicine does almost twice the healing per second. What makes it awesome is that it's 'free', but in a burst healing situation, it won't matter if you have 2 or 3 stacks. Your healing output is GCD limited either way. Upper Hand stacking to three is a boost to our sustained healing. It means more free heals because we're not missing out on Medpack Mastery procs while we're already at 2 stacks. Our healing changes are nice, but our healing output in warzones won't be dramatically different. Kolto Cloud is going to be a little better, but until it smart targets, half that will be overheal. Edited March 20, 2012 by Azaranth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teirdome Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Thanks for doing this Pedia! I've heard they're changing the diminishing returns on Expertise. Do you know how much? (First compare with Live to see if there is a difference, then post a couple expertise/percent numbers after removing gear would be awesome). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetou Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Thanks for doing this Pedia! I've heard they're changing the diminishing returns on Expertise. Do you know how much? (First compare with Live to see if there is a difference, then post a couple expertise/percent numbers after removing gear would be awesome). There is a thread in the PVP forum with pretty graphs. Basically, though, getting Expertise 700+ is going to be worth it for PVP after the changes. That said, we'll still want to get 2-piece PVE set bonuses in both Enforcer and Sawbones builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teirdome Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 There is a thread in the PVP forum with pretty graphs. Basically, though, getting Expertise 700+ is going to be worth it for PVP after the changes. That said, we'll still want to get 2-piece PVE set bonuses in both Enforcer and Sawbones builds. Ah, had to do some digging but eventually found it. Thanks! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=364314 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldin Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Opening Burst doesn't really concern me. It's negligible in PVE for a boss fight, and sustained makes up a lot more of that damage. Also, can't really rely on Disappearing Act to get another shoot first, because it might end up just resetting the boss. PVP, damage isn't really my concern, because it's more about the lack of gap closer and defensive boost that makes PVP so difficult. Seems like it would be something they could easily fix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Sigh. Took a bunch of screenshots for comparisons and got halfway done cut/pasting them together, then I realized I didn't check my buffs. That's what I get for rushing. Anyway... I heard someone said BW change shotgun/knife stat and bonus of our armor sets. Is it true? Are they better or worse? Shotguns on Live: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/LiveShotguns.jpg Shotguns on PTS: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/ptsshotguns.jpg could you plz screenshoot the fresh lvl 50 pvp set and the stats + bouns on it New sets: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/Ptsnewgear.jpg Can you post the values on back blast, suckerpunch, flying fists, blaster whip. The values with the pvp gear you normally use. And does pwr regen feel improved at all? Tooltips on PTS: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/ptstooltips.jpg Tooltips on Live: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/livetooltips.jpg I'm not sure if I could call energy regen improved, per se. It takes some getting used to because I'm used to using Back Blast every 9 seconds for 13 energy and Blaster Whip/Sucker Punch every 6 seconds or so for 30/45 energy, instead of Back Blast every 12 seconds for 20 energy and Blaster Whip/Sucker Punch every 6 seconds for 25/35 energy. Like I've also said before, even before the change to back blast cooldown, I still newb it up a lot by refreshing flachette rounds too often. Working on kicking that habit. I've heard they're changing the diminishing returns on Expertise. Do you know how much? (First compare with Live to see if there is a difference, then post a couple expertise/percent numbers after removing gear would be awesome). Expertise: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/PTSExpertise.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Double Post! Duras (Sentinel) and I plan to do some parsing on the Target Dummies someone told me about (oops) later tonight while we sit in pvp queues being bored. I'll see who else from my guild I can get to spec dps and test for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerB Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Tool tip comparisons uniformly show a damage decrease on nearly all abilities, interesting. Is that due to gear stat changes between your live and PTS gear? Also I think I saw accuracy as a stat on the Smuggler/Operative War Hero gear, is that accurate (no pun intended). Thanks for the gouge Pedia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Tool tip comparisons uniformly show a damage decrease on nearly all abilities, interesting. Is that due to gear stat changes between your live and PTS gear? Also I think I saw accuracy as a stat on the Smuggler/Operative War Hero gear, is that accurate (no pun intended). Thanks for the gouge Pedia. Yeah, there's a minor difference in my stats due to a few armoring shifts between live and pts. I included a screenshot of my character tab so you can see my stats between the two. A few pieces of the war hero set have accuracy, but its not like it is now where every piece of rakata/battlemaster has accuracy. Looks like Enforcer Blaster, Helm, and Legs, Field Tech Blaster, Gloves, Jacket, and Legs. There's also an Earpiece and an Implant with accuracy, but there are versions without. Edited March 20, 2012 by ThePedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawke Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I am not sure what Bioware is thinking. Quite honestly, the changes make the scoundrel weaker and forcing them into more of a hybrid/healer build. Halving the energy cost for back blast instead of negating it will seriously neuter the amount of time we can spend in active combat. The pungency "increases" are barely that, as the original bonuses are removed. There is more...much much more, but I just do not understand what is going through their heads. i wish one of the lead devs could live a month in our shoes. I am tired of armchair quarterbacks thinking they know what is going on, when they obviously have trouble seeing. Another note about this patch. All of the massive "re-balancing" and changing of all the classes and how their combat systems work all at once is reckless. They did this with the multiple changes with the scoundrel in 1.1.1. The only game I could think of with doing this kind of a massive change is SWG. And we all know what happened to that game. Please bioware, get your heads out of each other's bunghole and actually play this game, play it without your "freebies" or enclosed environments, play on the live servers and be honest about the changes that are needed and not keep favorites or holding grudges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I am not sure what Bioware is thinking. Quite honestly, the changes make the scoundrel weaker and forcing them into more of a hybrid/healer build. Halving the energy cost for back blast instead of negating it will seriously neuter the amount of time we can spend in active combat. Actually, it pushes you away from hybrid builds, and into a full scrapper build. The energy changes to Sucker Punch and Pugnacity makes Scrappers more energy positive next patch. Reports from the PTS are that energy management is much better for DPS scoundrels in raids. Have you even checked out firsthand reports, or did you just come here to complain first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuteypie Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Would love to see a pve dps rotation dummy log for ~5-10 mins Rotation should be something like: Shoot first | sucker punch | (pugnacy) | whip | pugnacy/suckerpunch | back blast | vital shot | whip | sucker punch (check energy lvl here) - quickshot/flurry depending on energy !here is where i used to back blast again but not anymore! | quickshot or flurry now | whip | back blast | sucker punch | sucker punch | whip and then continue to make sure you always use sucker punch on dotted target and never waste a gcd on crap. Post logs so we can analyze and compare, tyvm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawke Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Actually, it pushes you away from hybrid builds, and into a full scrapper build. The energy changes to Sucker Punch and Pugnacity makes Scrappers more energy positive next patch. Reports from the PTS are that energy management is much better for DPS scoundrels in raids. Have you even checked out firsthand reports, or did you just come here to complain first? I looked at the patchnotes and what my scoundrel has now. And compared the two. I have no interest in the test server, nor with my scoundrel as each time they make a change, they make it rashly. Past history of their patch notes on test server shows they do not make changes to what is on the PTS before pushing it on LIVE. Slowing down attacks and increasing their energy cost and decreasing energy gain makes for something that does not seem fun or viable. I will wait for 1.2 and give it an honest try, but at this point , I am categorizing 1.2 as SWG CU. Yiou can have your own opinions, these are my observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) So I just did a ~5 minute test on the Operations Training Dummy. I'm not sure what other classes are parsing at, but this is mine: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/parse1.jpg Self buffed (biochem skill stim, using my biochem power adrenal twice) Tech appears to be a combination of Flachette Round, Vital Shot, and Sabotage Charge. Kept myself around 60 energy or higher properly, only dropping below when I had Cool Head available to me to catch back up. Stats: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/Screenshot_2012-03-20_17_49_11_627121.jpg Edited March 20, 2012 by ThePedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So I just did a ~5 minute test on the Operations Training Dummy. I'm not sure what other classes are parsing at, but this is mine: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/parse1.jpg Self buffed (biochem skill stim, using my biochem power adrenal twice) Tech appears to be a combination of Flachette Round, Vital Shot, and Sabotage Charge. Kept myself around 60 energy or higher properly, only dropping below when I had Cool Head available to me to catch back up. Stats: http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv276/Boltswiki/Pedia%20SWTOR%20PTS/Screenshot_2012-03-20_17_49_11_627121.jpg Very cool, thanks. Now, find some of your guildmates who have the same tier gear that you do to post the same thing. I'd love to see the dps comparisons to Commandos, Gunslingers, Sages and Marauders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Very cool, thanks. Now, find some of your guildmates who have the same tier gear that you do to post the same thing. I'd love to see the dps comparisons to Commandos, Gunslingers, Sages and Marauders. If I can get them to log on... lol Will be able to get a sentinel dps for sure. Might be able to get a commando and a sage to dps it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) If I can get them to log on... lol Will be able to get a sentinel dps for sure. Might be able to get a commando and a sage to dps it as well. Seriously though, thank you. This is large step forward towards fact finding. I bristle at all the overreaction that's happened without any real data to back it up. Having some legitimate data, even if they're back-of-the-napkin type training dummy tests, will go a long ways towards quieting or legitimizing the concerns about Scrappers in this next patch. Really looking forward to comparative data. Thanks Pedia. Edit: Which training dummy did you use? Edit2: What's the source of the 115k "Tech" damage shown as the largest source of your dps? If that's just a breakdown showing what percentage of your damage is tech based, why is it showing up on the pie chart? Edited March 20, 2012 by Azaranth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comieb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 One thing i noticed on the PTR notes, is that there is no change for DF scoundrels to generate UH for their abilities. Please tell me im wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Edit: Which training dummy did you use? Edit2: What's the source of the 115k "Tech" damage shown as the largest source of your dps? If that's just a breakdown showing what percentage of your damage is tech based, why is it showing up on the pie chart? Posted about both of these in the original post. I dpsed the Operations training dummy. Tech is Sabotage Charge, Flachette Round, and Vital Shot combined. One thing i noticed on the PTR notes, is that there is no change for DF scoundrels to generate UH for their abilities. Please tell me im wrong. Nope, no ranged UH generation for DF. =( Edited March 20, 2012 by ThePedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Posted about both of these in the original post. I dpsed the Operations training dummy. Tech is Sabotage Charge, Flachette Round, and Vital Shot combined. Whoops, you're right, of course. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wren_Atticus Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Nope. Current patch, but it'll only get better in 1,2, right? He used Shoot First -> Backblast -> Sucker Punch In 1.2, Shoot First is unchanged In 1.2, Back Blast will do more damage (both from base, and from talents) In 1.2, Sucker Punch will do less base damage, but that's partially offset by new talents So as far as this three hit combo, the gains are larger than the losses. This is why I don't understand the current outrage. The initial burst looks to be a little larger than before. Backblast has a longer cooldown which hurts sustained dps a touch, but the better energy management from the Sucker Punch changes could maybe compensate for that. Combined with the healer nerf, it seems like Scoundrels are getting more dangerous, not less. Time and the combat logs will tell. Wish we could get combat logs on the live servers right now, so we could have some comparative numbers... Things you are forgetting: Sucker Punch is 6% weaker with 1.2. However, there is a chance that Flying Fists procs which is 4% stronger. Also, there won't be the gear disparity anymore since BM gear will be practically given away. So you cannot count on that anymore as an advantage. Also, the +5 energy you gain from Sucker Punch is lost by the +4 energy you now spend on Flechette round before Shoot First and Back Blast. Edited March 20, 2012 by Wren_Atticus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Things you are forgetting: Sucker Punch is 6% weaker with 1.2. However, there is a chance that Flying Fists procs which is 4% stronger. Good point. That probably all balances out to make our pre 1.2 and post 1.2 numbers fairly equal, right? Also, there won't be the gear disparity anymore since BM gear will be practically given away. So you cannot count on that anymore as an advantage. Sure, and my point wasn't to suggest otherwise. In fact, it's my stance that no class should be able to stunlock and kill another in 8 seconds. I was just pointing out that I've seen operatives do horrendous amounts of damage in PVP. (In response to someone complaining about how much damage a Sent was doing) Also, the +5 energy you gain from Sucker Punch is lost by the +4 energy you now spend on Flechette round before Shoot First and Back Blast. Right, but your longer term rotation is going to have more energy to spare than it does currently. Edited March 20, 2012 by Azaranth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePedia Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 4% damage buff to Flying Fists seems like a very 'meh' buff. In my parse, Flying Fists only accounted for ~1% of my damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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