Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[Wynn]

So I just cast Toxin Scan over and over in fleet, god I wish I could copy my healers to ptr.

 

IA cure healing on live is 212-610(non crits) with only gear on is my weapon which is the tier 2 raid weapon. Looks like you can't cast anything if you have no weapons and I'm sure that's for when the Hand-to-hand combat stuff goes in

 

No buffs also

 

If the PTR notes are right you guys are getting after talented

 

Cure(talented)

Instant

Cooldown: 4 seconds

Heat: 8

Range: 30m

 

vs

 

Toxin Scan(talented)

Energy: 10

Cooldown: 4.5s

Range: 30 m

[Zeita]

RuQu,

 

It was brought up in a post earlier in this thread as to how team healing would be affected by these changes. Ie the Kolto Bomb Residue now hitting another target. Now I know that we are losing 2% off of that buff for an extra person hit. But what if we were to say combine the use of Kolto Bomb with say the Sage area heal? How would that impact aoe healing, for the healing team? What about a combination of Smug/Mando healing team...?

 

If I can think of any more healing "team" thoughts I will post them.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Zeita

[Blaac]

If a person is happy with how their class plays now, and sees substantial changes that they think will decrease their enjoyment, that is a valid opinion and concern and they are fully within rights to express it. I'm not sure why people who approve of changes think that their opinion is the only one worthy of being voiced.

 

Take a look in mirror brother and say the negative of this as well.

 

"I'm not sure why people who disapprove of changes think that their opinion is the one worthy of being voiced."

 

Was it not you who earlier in this very thread said:

and this petty vendetta of yours in support of BW / in opposition to people expressing their displeasure is completely off-topic. Please take it elsewhere.

 

If that read:

"and this petty vendetta of yours in opposition of BW / in opposition of people expressing their pleasure is completely off-topic. Please take it elsewhere."

 

I think once again it is *obvious* who this should be directed at.

 

 

 

You know that science works by trying to prove the negative, as in trying to prove your own theory false by all means possible?

 

I think you are mistaken. Science is trying to find the truth. Not being swayed by person feelings. Using ALL of the facts (negative and positive) to come to a conclusion. Sometimes that conclusion is not what was intended, but a true scientist is able to remove THEMSELVES and their person feelings about how the results should be from the equation.

 

True scientists use the data as the determining factor, not using their own feelings to determine what data is viable to achieve the outcome they want.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Blaac

[JohanGill]

We're listening to your feedback, too, and rebalancing some of the changes made to healing based on data gathered from PTS. Look out for a future update to PTS for more details.

 

Did everybody miss this from this week's Q&A? I have no clue about what the results will be, but it would make some sense to base judgement on the actual changes hitting the live servers, right? Feel free to tell them, in a civilized way, what you think will happen with the current changes, and what you observed yourself. That's just feedback, fine. Beating the unsubbing/Biocrap/whateverinsultcomesupnext drum is just silly.

Edited March 25, 2012 by JohanGill

[Darieltis]

I think you are mistaken. Science is trying to find the truth. Not being swayed by person feelings. Using ALL of the facts (negative and positive) to come to a conclusion. Sometimes that conclusion is not what was intended, but a true scientist is able to remove THEMSELVES and their person feelings about how the results should be from the equation.

 

True scientists use the data as the determining factor, not using their own feelings to determine what data is viable to achieve the outcome they want.

 

Are you really that naive?

[RedWolfs]

Take a look in mirror brother and say the negative of this as well.

 

"I'm not sure why people who disapprove of changes think that their opinion is the one worthy of being voiced."

 

Was it not you who earlier in this very thread said:

 

 

If that read:

"and this petty vendetta of yours in opposition of BW / in opposition of people expressing their pleasure is completely off-topic. Please take it elsewhere."

 

I think once again it is *obvious* who this should be directed at.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are mistaken. Science is trying to find the truth. Not being swayed by person feelings. Using ALL of the facts (negative and positive) to come to a conclusion. Sometimes that conclusion is not what was intended, but a true scientist is able to remove THEMSELVES and their person feelings about how the results should be from the equation.

 

True scientists use the data as the determining factor, not using their own feelings to determine what data is viable to achieve the outcome they want.

 

I have seen the light, all this makes it okay that casual players who are still leveling are getting shot in the back by BW. I also checked last night on your claim that gear could be had for cheap. Checked three servers there were 0, that is right Zero 124/126 weapons on any of the three servers checked and I sampled all three markets on all three servers just in case. Found three pieces of armor for sale for over a mil credits. Blue grade gear was in the price range you specified. Oh and there were more players on the first third of the planets and the last two thirds combined, on all three servers.

 

Now I might be crazy but I think the focus of your whole arguments for being end game, when my small and subjective sample points to that not being where the game population is located on many servers, is a bit off where the game is. To make this game harder by this update and method is cheating me out of the money I paid BW for this game, they are closing the game I subscribed to. Add a harder mode for the few nuts who are at end game already and bored, do not screw over the rest of the population because of them.

 

So BW if this is your direction not only will I cancel, but I want my money back.

[FrostyDroid]

I have no interest in raiding, I have little interest in PvP, am not a competitive person, and as such, am not hugely affected by "nerfs". However, I have to say, if Bioware have so utterly lost sight of the "story based" MMO that I was so excited about back in 2008 that all their attention is focused on fiddling with "end game", then that's exactly what it is: END GAME.

[Miraj]

I am definitely interested in hearing the 'healing group' test in light of the changes to kolto bomb/healing residue.

 

I've been looking at the talents myself and am somewhat torn on kolto residue post patch. I could take a talent for 2% outgoing and 2% incoming healing 100% of the time - that's almost as much as the 3% from kolto when I'm the only healer.

 

What I'm interested to know is how much other healers are healing in comparison, and if from a group synergy perspective kolto residue is worth it.

 

Of course, I'm not really sure the best way to test that... I suppose it's too much to hope that the new logs will let you assess how much of the main tank healing and how much of the AE healing comes from which person? And which people have kolto residue up at any given time?

[Raani]

Regarding the Psych Aid test, I spammed it on my level 47 Sage on live. Her bonus healing is a whopping 397 and she has slightly outdated gear (lv 45 mods).

 

These are my ranges: 331-466 regular, 547-681 crit.

 

Seems like the CM one at 50 and in proper gear is a bit less, or the scaling is extraordinarily poor and mine will not go up much or at all when I'm maxed.

 

***************************************************

 

What I would like them to tell us clearly is what niche they have in mind for Combat Medics. It's obvious at this point that not every healer is equally suited for each situation, and if they want to keep them different, that's fine.

 

But what is it that a CM will be able to do better than anyone else in 1.2?

 

At this point, we have the least amount of utility, with no interrupt, no slow, and no battle rez. That doesn't seem to be changing much, with the possible exception of the b-rez.

 

With the changes to ammo, it seems to me that Scoundrels will be able to sustain single-target healing more efficiently via Underworld Medicine + Emergency Medpack spam, while having SRMP running. With UP stacks going up to 3, they might be able to toss EMs out to other people if they can afford the GCD. Being able to do 2 EMs in a row also ups their mobility.

 

In terms of AoE healing, without Kolto Bomb and Kolto Cloud being smart heals, and with both being limited to 4 targets, I think it's safe to say that neither CM nor Sawbones will bring much to the table. Salvation is still the best AoE in the game, and combined with bubbles and Rejuv, it will allow Sages to continue being solid group healers.

 

So if you're bringing 2 healers, why would you bring a CM, unless you have no choice? If the other healers can handle burst on tank, then you don't need SCS, and therefore you don't need a CM.

[RuQu]

I am definitely interested in hearing the 'healing group' test in light of the changes to kolto bomb/healing residue.

 

I've been looking at the talents myself and am somewhat torn on kolto residue post patch. I could take a talent for 2% outgoing and 2% incoming healing 100% of the time - that's almost as much as the 3% from kolto when I'm the only healer.

 

What I'm interested to know is how much other healers are healing in comparison, and if from a group synergy perspective kolto residue is worth it.

 

Of course, I'm not really sure the best way to test that... I suppose it's too much to hope that the new logs will let you assess how much of the main tank healing and how much of the AE healing comes from which person? And which people have kolto residue up at any given time?

 

I think this one will have to come down to a theory comparison.

 

Commando AoE healing typically involves a lot of single-target spam interwoven with KB to hit the people it missed. Even if we took the logs from first boss in EV, or from Soa, there would be no way to tell when a Commando was spamming AP/MP during missile barrages or between platforms vs healing up a tank who got a huge hit and then tossing any remaining SCC time out at the raid.

 

I don't have the time right at this moment, but I'll sit down and see what I can come up with.

[Aaoogaa]

RuQu I don't think you need to invest any more time. We can all see that as it stands in 1.2 CMs will not be competative when compared to the other 2 healers. I am glad that scoundrels are going to be near on par for healing with sages now. I am sad that CMs are the ones that will not be on equal footing. If the healers were close that would not be a problem. The fact is unless BW changes many of the compounding nerfs that CMs will not be played. No more testing is going to change that. So now it is up to BW to figure out actual play vs. their on paper metrics and obvious poor internal testing. I am currently leveling a scoundrel healer...sad to see my main retire...but BW still has time to put the healers on equal footing.

[RuQu]

RuQu I don't think you need to invest any more time. We can all see that as it stands in 1.2 CMs will not be competative when compared to the other 2 healers. I am glad that scoundrels are going to be near on par for healing with sages now. I am sad that CMs are the ones that will not be on equal footing. If the healers were close that would not be a problem. The fact is unless BW changes many of the compounding nerfs that CMs will not be played. No more testing is going to change that. So now it is up to BW to figure out actual play vs. their on paper metrics and obvious poor internal testing. I am currently leveling a scoundrel healer...sad to see my main retire...but BW still has time to put the healers on equal footing.

 

Interestingly (to me at least), I think that much of the problem stems from some of the key healing design decisions being made by people who don't play healers.

 

For example, if you don't play a Commando it looks like our AoE got buffed, and the nerfs to KB/KM residue and DR shield compensate for the increased targets.

 

If you DO play a Commando, you know that when everyone is hurt and a Sage would be casting Salvation, you are popping SCC and using AP/MP spam on everyone.

 

So they think they buffed our AoE and nerfed our single-target sustainability, without realizing that our AoE is so weak and random that we can't rely on it alone and therefore lean heavily on that sustained single-target for AoE situations. This makes the single-target nerf also an AoE nerf, and a bigger one than the KB buff.

 

If they removed the cap entirely and made KB hit 8 people, there would be no need for smart-healing and we could rely on KB for most of our AoE needs without the Field Trauma and SCC nerfs also nerfing AoE healing. Sure it is ~52% as strong as Salvation, but we can cast it on the run for Soa platforms as well as when the group pauses for new platforms to fall, so there is balance there. It is weaker for equal time, but there are more times when you can use so at 8 players it is actually quite balanced, which we know from it being fairly balanced in 4-man.

[Wynn]

The Kolto Bomb and Kolto Cloud change is a buff in my eyes to raid teams, your tagging more people with plus healing. Because lets face it all 3 aoes are weak take Soa all 3 healers are using more then just the aoe to heal people during the falling part.

 

Also our best merc healer that went on and on about being able to dps and heal during raids and having endless heat, now that mercs have to focus on just healing like IAs I don't see this being the end of the world.

 

Has any of the merc that been copy over try the first test I would have done, can you heal the flashpoint in 1.2 that you should have on auto pilot on live servers?

[Aaoogaa]

The Kolto Bomb and Kolto Cloud change is a buff in my eyes to raid teams, your tagging more people with plus healing. Because lets face it all 3 aoes are weak take Soa all 3 healers are using more then just the aoe to heal people during the falling part.

 

Also our best merc healer that went on and on about being able to dps and heal during raids and having endless heat, now that mercs have to focus on just healing like IAs I don't see this being the end of the world.

 

Has any of the merc that been copy over try the first test I would have done, can you heal the flashpoint in 1.2 that you should have on auto pilot on live servers?

 

Only if those people have taken damage....woot you healed someone with full life and the guy you wanted to heal now has to be touched up with a single target heal...oh nm the sage got it. As for your second testing idea...why would you test flashpoints in rakata gear on 1.2...if anything they should be tested in level 51 quest gear...since that is where you start.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Wynn]

Because any healer worth there salt can tell right away how the nerfs pan out with flashpoints they have done already.

 

As for being upset that your aoe hit all people at full health that not only a merc issue your aoe hitting the wrong people is the same boat as IAs and even Sorc have the issues in 16 with there being no smart heals.

[Masturomenos]

Obviously you *arent* reading what I said... whatever this thread was created FOR isnt in question... I said (and stand by it) that more than 90% of the ppl complaining havent tested, yet are STILL here complaining.

 

People that HAVE tested it, and have actual data to back up what they are saying, I have nothing against. My issue is that most of the people here (which appears to include YOU) are turning this thread (like many others) into a gripefest about how terrible heals will be after 1.2.

 

They arent basing this information off the posts here, or the posts by people who have said they feel the level of healing has been brought in line to where it should be, or that it is making this somewhat difficult but still achieveable, which oddly enough was the goal. They ARE basing this off of a few posts by a few people and blowing it way out of proportion when its a patch..... IN TESTING!~!!

 

I have serious doubts about the logic of some people...

 

Why do people question the logic of the players whos BW job is to make happy and to keep them playing but no one can question BW logic? Ive been on the PTR and i have posted how the changes have gutted classes. As a BH healer in between vent heat CDs i cant sustain healing to keep more then one person up possible 2 if i count myself. Rapid shot spam is not engaging healing. Adding a extra target to my aoe does not mak me usefull when there is classes able to target 8. 8 is the magic number 1 to 7 targets is worthless to a raid leader when it requires 2 BH healers to do what one sorc can. Spending heat to put a kolto shell up that was already useless is not a change mde that gear can fix. Adding heat to my rapid scan that only is reduced by using healing scan every 8 to 10 seconds i not fixed by gear. Having ll the heal and damage reductions that come with our usefull spells nerfed des no make me more usefull to a raid. So on and so on. When classes are nerfed so that content can be harder instead of making content hrder by engaging mchanics or out of the box thinking by the people designing it is not something i praise BW or want to pay them to make more of.

 

Why does BW want to make us unhappy to keep us playing. Why cant a developer make us happy by doing itb right. I dont want 10 patches a year of busted unfinished content id rather have one patchb with conent i need to think and strategize to beat that i can be proud of doing. Why cant we hv proof of why they made these decision? Why do we have to follow them and be questioned when we dont want to? Why cant BW give us anything more then 'trust us'? What have they done ever to earn our trust? I pay them so i am giving my money to them why cant they give us a product we want?

[bigbramble]

The reason for some of the changes is in fact to increase the challenge level of top end content by tightening class balance. Healing through top end content was, as a fact, not tightly balanced enough in the past and a prime contributor to the fact that our top end difficulty content was just not providing the challenge level people expected.

 

This encapsulates both the medpac change (without being able to make safe assumption about the availability of optional healing, it is impossible to strike a reliable balance that doesn't require people to shell out hundreds of thousands of credits for item based healing) as well as the class changes.

 

The other major reason is class to class and role to role balance.

 

I don't agree Georg. All you have done is make life harder for healers and not the entire raid. Even with the UI changes life as a healer is tough in TOR, the heals are tiny and you run out of resources too fast. I foresee a huge shortage of healers unless you make it less clunky healing in the game, it is not currently beginner friendly at all.

 

Here are my reasons.

 

1) With the current UI and the new UI it's really really hard to monitor debuffs, they are too small on screen and they don't show up on the operations frames.

 

2) Personally I didn't like healing on my Sorc as it relies on looking for an absolutely tiny buff to appear before you can get some force back, that's gone now so instead of running out of force because things got hectic and I missed the buff, I just run out force.

 

3) For agent/smuggler BH/trooper healers the main heals are so small you can rarely get away with using the resource free heals as people just die.

 

4) Too many buttons, I have my fingers on the WASD keys and struggle to really manage more than 5 num keys above that without making the odd error or resorting to clicking.

 

5) Party frames are absolutely awful, just horrible to use. I like the operation frames but with no option to show companions on them their use is limited.

 

I have tried all 3 healing classes. I have a lvl 50 sorc, 50 bh and 30 smuggler. I have done a little endgame but was focusing on the stories before I play it more. Sure you can say it's because I have not practised enough or that I am a rubbish healer but the fact is you NEED healing to be accessibly or people wont want to do it. I absolutely love the game and applaud the development teams great work but endgame difficulty needs to be about the encounters and not about making healing so difficult that everyone has to be PERFECT or you fail, healers will get the blame and will go play another class. The game will have a chronic shortage of healers and that will be bad news.

[Blaac]

Are you really that naive?

 

If believing that true results can only be acquired by getting all possible data, rather than than ONLY the data that supports what you are trying to prove and ignoring everything else... than apparently I am that naive.

 

I think the real question here is: Are you really that jaded and self serving...

[Blaac]

Why do people question the logic of the players whos BW job is to make happy and to keep them playing but no one can question BW logic? Ive been on the PTR and i have posted how the changes have gutted classes. As a BH healer in between vent heat CDs i cant sustain healing to keep more then one person up possible 2 if i count myself. Rapid shot spam is not engaging healing. Adding a extra target to my aoe does not mak me usefull when there is classes able to target 8. 8 is the magic number 1 to 7 targets is worthless to a raid leader when it requires 2 BH healers to do what one sorc can. Spending heat to put a kolto shell up that was already useless is not a change mde that gear can fix. Adding heat to my rapid scan that only is reduced by using healing scan every 8 to 10 seconds i not fixed by gear. Having ll the heal and damage reductions that come with our usefull spells nerfed des no make me more usefull to a raid. So on and so on. When classes are nerfed so that content can be harder instead of making content hrder by engaging mchanics or out of the box thinking by the people designing it is not something i praise BW or want to pay them to make more of.

 

Why does BW want to make us unhappy to keep us playing. Why cant a developer make us happy by doing itb right. I dont want 10 patches a year of busted unfinished content id rather have one patchb with conent i need to think and strategize to beat that i can be proud of doing. Why cant we hv proof of why they made these decision? Why do we have to follow them and be questioned when we dont want to? Why cant BW give us anything more then 'trust us'? What have they done ever to earn our trust? I pay them so i am giving my money to them why cant they give us a product we want?

 

The problem with your argument is that what makes *YOU* happy isn't what makes *EVERYONE* happy.

 

It is literally impossible for BW to make every single player everywhere happy. Some players want harder content, some want easier. Some players want to be "overpowered" compared to everyone else, some want everyone to be equal. Some players feel the changes made by BW are right, some feel they are wrong.

 

I am not arguing anywhere that these changes are perfect or that BW is always right... but no matter which direction BW takes SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, will not like it. It just happens to be you this time.

[RuQu]

If believing that true results can only be acquired by getting all possible data, rather than than ONLY the data that supports what you are trying to prove and ignoring everything else... than apparently I am that naive.

 

I think the real question here is: Are you really that jaded and self serving...

 

There is evidence in this thread itself that says that the data being collected is being reported without bias, yet you choose to ignore that evidence and maintain that the data must be biased because it does not support your preformed conclusion.

 

I requested that you propose alternate tests if you think the ones we did were biased, or point out sources of those biases. You have neglected to do so, instead simply repeating over and over that the tests must be biased because they do not show the mitigating changes GZ mentioned.

 

I also do not see how simply reporting the stat curve changes supports one side or the other. The results, that there were no changes to curves and DR and a nerf to item budget, support the "these changes are bad" camp, but if they had gone the other way we would still have reported them (as proved by my initial report that they WERE a stealth buff, before errors in my analysis were pointed out).

[Wynn]

You want to keep everything the same balance wise so only healers they take to raids are Sorc/Sage moving forward?

 

It's like some of you have never play a mmo healer before, it was clear to most people and data prove it force users had endless force and merc/trooper throughput was too high. Most mmo have some kind of healing change patch to patch this isn't some new shocking thing Bioware is doing.

 

I've been healing since before mmo's(pen and paper) and I've never turn on other healers and always hated healer nerfs.

 

But all the crying form the Merc and Sorc that some how they are unable to do there job because they have to heal at my level(IA) is disheartening.

 

Its a year 1 mmo they are doing balance change because unlike beta they have more people playing and can see balance problems better.

 

For the the healers on ptr and trying to make your class better your rock stars for the other that are crying over changes and quitting with out even trying the changes your looking like spoiled kids.

 

 

Have any of the ptr healers try healing flashpoint are you unable to heal them on test?

[Masturomenos]

The problem with your argument is that what makes *YOU* happy isn't what makes *EVERYONE* happy.

 

It is literally impossible for BW to make every single player everywhere happy. Some players want harder content, some want easier. Some players want to be "overpowered" compared to everyone else, some want everyone to be equal. Some players feel the changes made by BW are right, some feel they are wrong.

 

I am not arguing anywhere that these changes are perfect or that BW is always right... but no matter which direction BW takes SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, will not like it. It just happens to be you this time.

 

I agree its not about me but i see most people not happy wih the changes. A handful of people say who cares, most hate this and no one asked for any of it. I dont have a meter to log all thats happened to prove to myself this was needed, BW has not given us ne proof and 99% of people cant lvl to 50 to test it on the ptr. Randomness in this patch is everywhere. There are just too many changes that make no sense. Nerf heals one patch then see what happens then make changes nxt patch dont just gut classes to the point people have to reroll to keep a raid spot or a wz team spot. I cant even accept a raid invite in 1.2 after playing on the ptr because i know its holding the people i play with back regardless of how good i am because there is very clear cut proof of what classesare the onesto play to progres compared to the ones not good to play. They nerf players to make up for their lack of ability to make content with mechanics that can challenge us.

[Darieltis]

If believing that true results can only be acquired by getting all possible data, rather than than ONLY the data that supports what you are trying to prove and ignoring everything else... than apparently I am that naive.

 

I think the real question here is: Are you really that jaded and self serving...

 

Ok, you are here --- > x

My point is 20 miles that way < ---

 

My point is...science is anything but this "unbiased, following the data where it leads" thing that you profess it to be. Sure, the ideal is fine, so is Marxism...neither can be a reality with human beings. We all have our own agenda and our own perception. To think science is unbiased truth is naïveté.

[Wynn]

Masturomenos you sound like someone that knows they are OP and going to cry because now you have to work harder

 

Are you really saying that you can't heal because 1.2 they bringing your balance closer to Smugglers/IA

 

IA and Smugglers have been healing raids its not the end of the world to have the healers more balance

[RuQu]

Masturomenos you sound like someone that knows they are OP and going to cry because now you have to work harder

 

Are you really saying that you can't heal because 1.2 they bringing your balance closer to Smugglers/IA

 

IA and Smugglers have been healing raids its not the end of the world to have the healers more balance

 

Try saying your post out loud and ask yourself if you would ever say something like that in the real world and expect proper discussion.

 

"Aww, what's the matter? Baby gonna cry?" Dismiss someone's complaints like that in the wrong company and you are gonna get punched. In more polite company you will simply be deemed an ******e and socially blacklisted.

 

He said he's played on the PTR (or at least that's what I think he said, his grammar is a bit terrible), and he doesn't think he will be viable anymore with his current group and content level.

 

He has said nothing about IA healing. What he has said is that the way they are changing it does not look like fun to him, and will make him unhappy, and he thinks BW should consider that there are people like him. That's a fair statement, regardless of whatever state IA healing is in now or post-1.2.