Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[Ewert]

Those some really high numbers most IA/Smugglers cap out at 300k and the best I've is 600k from a Sage I wont call that normal.

 

I'm getting 100k plus only using 2 buttons and in a dps stance the nerfs are no where near that bad.

Here's a hint, if you have never pushed over 500k in wz as healer, you have things to learn. A good fight and 600k is the norm for best healers. Sages can break this with AoE in places like voidstar doors (by break I mean surpass by a large margin. 800-900k is possible). 300k is very basic if the wz is of any length.

 

And that's with champion gear, not BM. In short your testing, as said, was useless and pointless.

 

Good dps net over 300k. By definition healers have to pump out more (dmg kills people which prevents dmg thus healing has to be more).

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ewert

[Blaac]

I think you guys are missing his point... its not "I'm awesome I can do 100k healing" its "I can get 100k healing without even trying". Edited March 26, 2012 by Blaac

[Wynn]

My server 90% of the games is hutt ball yes healing is higher in the other warzones but 300k seems to be the high end of healing for my server on hutt ball.

[Aaoogaa]

Seriously? Read most of the other posts you have made in defense of your view and tell me you aren't being just as bad? Heck read the message 2 posts above this one.

 

There is a reason the "anti sky is falling" people are rude... because you guys are too.

 

 

 

If you did indeed read the message 2 posts before this one... you will see that the people on your side disagree and feel that only level 50 information is relevant and/or useful.

 

EDIT: (In case you dont feel like scrolling)

 

Don't isolate my post to make your point. I disagree with everything you have said. My post is from a pvp perspective. All the great testing by RuQu has been in PVE trying to match up what GZ has said with reality...and it isn't. You continue to attack players expressing their opinion...spouting what you think is fact when in reality it is an unsupported opinion. At least RuQu has stats to back up his....yours is based on nothing.

 

Nothing you have said isn't disproving what RuQu has stated.

There are concerns with people leveling on PTR as healers.

There are concerns with running content in gear that isnt Rakata on the PTR.

There are major concerns with PVPing as a healer on PTR.

 

Now take your opinion and start your own thread where you have nothing to defend it.

[Blaac]

Don't isolate my post to make your point. I disagree with everything you have said. My post is from a pvp perspective. All the great testing by RuQu has been in PVE trying to match up what GZ has said with reality...and it isn't. You continue to attack players expressing their opinion...spouting what you think is fact when in reality it is an unsupported opinion. At least RuQu has stats to back up his....yours is based on nothing.

 

Nothing you have said isn't disproving what RuQu has stated.

There are concerns with people leveling on PTR as healers.

There are concerns with running content in gear that isnt Rakata on the PTR.

There are major concerns with PVPing as a healer on PTR.

 

Now take your opinion and start your own thread where you have nothing to defend it.

 

Thank you for making my point.

[Aaoogaa]

I think you guys are missing his point... its not "I'm awesome I can do 100k healing" its "I can get 100k healing without even trying".

 

No, you beleive that he got 100k without trying. You have no facts to back it up like the rests of your posts....all I see are excuses and opinion. Just like my posts are opinion. Now go start your own thread and leave this one alone unless you actually have statistics showing what GZ has said to be true.

[Aaoogaa]

Thank you for making my point.

 

K, I am glad that I made your point that you have nothing to back up what you have said...and others have data backing up their assumptions.

[Wynn]

No, you beleive that he got 100k without trying. You have no facts to back it up like the rests of your posts....all I see are excuses and opinion. Just like my posts are opinion. Now go start your own thread and leave this one alone unless you actually have statistics showing what GZ has said to be true.

 

I have the screen shots of the war zones want me to upload the score boards? I mean if you really want I can fraps a match tomorrow showing you that a BH can heal using just rapid scan and healing scan. My points always been that the nerfs and not class killing as some people are saying

 

But anything I do wont count because I don't have a level 50 Merc on PTR.

[Blaac]

No, you beleive that he got 100k without trying. You have no facts to back it up like the rests of your posts....all I see are excuses and opinion. Just like my posts are opinion. Now go start your own thread and leave this one alone unless you actually have statistics showing what GZ has said to be true.

 

The fact that he said he did it with only 2 buttons? What purpose would he have to specifically say that unless it was relevant to the information being provided.

 

K, I am glad that I made your point that you have nothing to back up what you have said...and others have data backing up their assumptions.

 

Or the point that you get angry at others for disputing one-sided "facts" with your argument of "you dont agree so **** and go away" or calling their skill into question with no facts the back it up.

 

When did civilized conversation go by the wayside?

[Aaoogaa]

I have the screen shots of the war zones want me to upload the score boards? I mean if you really want I can fraps a match tomorrow showing you that a BH can heal using just rapid scan and healing scan. My points always been that the nerfs and not class killing as some people are saying

 

But anything I do wont count because I don't have a level 50 Merc on PTR.

 

Sweet you can push a button to cast a heal. Are you trying to convince me to keep playing my healer to keep you alive? You're really not making much of a point. Yes, the class will be able to heal...thanks for pointing out the obvious. Many people will leave this class because it isn't what they want out of the class/spec. It doesn't mean the class isn't an option to pick...it just means less healers will be in warzones due to not being fun.

[Aaoogaa]

The fact that he said he did it with only 2 buttons? What purpose would he have to specifically say that unless it was relevant to the information being provided.

 

 

 

Or the point that you get angry at others for disputing one-sided "facts" with your argument of "you dont agree so **** and go away" or calling their skill into question with no facts the back it up.

 

When did civilized conversation go by the wayside?

 

Na, I asked you to start your own thread and leave this thread alone. That way your opinion...side of the arguement...or whatever you want to call it will have it's own place on the forums. I guess you might be afraid nobody would even give your thread the time of day?...or maybe just maybe you're enjoying trolling.

 

...by the way, it isn't fact that he only pushed 2 buttons...it is you beleiving unsubstantiated information from a random poster.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Zachajariah]

Wow 100k...don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back. As far as balance...currently the game is balanced. After the nerfs is when the game will unbalance. Currently a well played marader or sent can solo most healers in the game if the healers do not get help. 2 DPS can stomp you into a mud hole. After the patch it is going to be much much worse. I don't want to be respawning every 30 seconds in warzones...sorry to me that isn't fun. I am glad you are looking forward to that.

 

100k healing is......good???

 

/confused

[Ewert]

I think you guys are missing his point... its not "I'm awesome I can do 100k healing" its "I can get 100k healing without even trying".

And that is worthless info, tyvmgb.

 

PS. You are a hypocrite. You make a big show that people's opinions should be free to be expressed, then continue to sully a informative testing included opinion based thread. Kthxbyeleave.

 

PPS. I am blunt, not rude, there is a difference.

[Wynn]

One more time forget the amount I heal I wanted to see if I could heal taking all heals that been change off the table I could that is all.

[Ewert]

My server 90% of the games is hutt ball yes healing is higher in the other warzones but 300k seems to be the high end of healing for my server on hutt ball.

I can do 300k dmg on my lvl40 ungeared sniper engineerspec alt on huttball. If a healer can not heal more than that... Pokemons will cry.

[Ewert]

One more time forget the amount I heal I wanted to see if I could heal taking all heals that been change off the table I could that is all.

Anyone have a good "fail" picture floating around? Maybe that Picard one?

 

By definition "being able to heal" must incorporate it being a substantial amount of healing, if it does not then my sniper alt can heal too (medpacks, shield).

[Zeita]

One more time forget the amount I heal I wanted to see if I could heal taking all heals that been change off the table I could that is all.

 

From level 20-30 I was easily able to hit over 100k nearly every WZ. So your healing amount is pathetic. And proving the point that the CM/Merc Nerf was a bit excessive.

 

Also if you really want to try to show that "Hey guys nerf not bad, look what I can do on live!" You might want to look at the patch notes again and figure out what you are missing when it comes to skill tree. Cause you're actually missing quite a few things that got nerfed in our skill tree as well.

 

And actually after thinking about it even more, and thinking about heat cots on the skills that I use on a regular basis, I see even more how flawed your attempt was. Because you also have to actually use those abilities with their new heat costs in your rotation and situational healing to see that you will be running out of heat far more regularly then you think that you would.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Zeita

[Blaac]

And that is worthless info, tyvmgb.

 

PS. You are a hypocrite. You make a big show that people's opinions should be free to be expressed, then continue to sully a informative testing included opinion based thread. Kthxbyeleave.

 

PPS. I am blunt, not rude, there is a difference.

 

Actually no. I would be a hypocrite if I actively posted in a thread designed (and specifically stated by the OP) that it is to discuss healer changes, and that everyone is entitled to their opinion... then told everyone who opposed my opinion to go away.

 

Personally I feel that everyone SHOULD be free to express their opinion... as long as they allow others to express it as well. Which obviously you do not.

 

PS. I you do not feel your comments like tyvmgb and kthxbyeleave are not rude, perhaps you should brush up on your definitions again.

[gramz]

Just wanted to link you guys to my thread (posted elsewhere) with some of our healers #'s from tonights raid, for your comparison

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3619810#post3619810

[Ewert]

Actually no. I would be a hypocrite if I actively posted in a thread designed (and specifically stated by the OP) that it is to discuss healer changes, and that everyone is entitled to their opinion... then told everyone who opposed my opinion to go away.

 

Personally I feel that everyone SHOULD be free to express their opinion... as long as they allow others to express it as well. Which obviously you do not.

 

PS. I you do not feel your comments like tyvmgb and kthxbyeleave are not rude, perhaps you should brush up on your definitions again.

Sorry, I personally know it is easy to always twist everything to one's own favour in stupid arguments, I do it often enough. You still come off as a hypocrite. And yes this argument is stupid and unconstructive. By extension I am being stupid responding.

 

Read the OP again. Testing. You do not contribute, neither do I except in proposing methods sometimes.

 

As for rudeness or bluntness, the difference in written media does not come through, hence the informative statement of mine. I write all these and ones above in a neutral nonheated state of mind unconfrontationally, hence bluntly, not rudely. Why don't you refresh the definitions of rude and blunt from a dictionary. And that was a blunt suggestion not a rude one.

[Zeita]

Just wanted to link you guys to my thread (posted elsewhere) with some of our healers #'s from tonights raid, for your comparison

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3619810#post3619810

 

tyvm for the data, its a nice look into an actual raid situation and numbers done.

[Blaac]

tyvm for the data, its a nice look into an actual raid situation and numbers done.

 

It is, I just wish the tables had a breakdown of the skills for further comparison. X (skill) = Y% of healing done. That sort of thing.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Blaac

[gramz]

It is, I just wish the tables has a breakdown of the skills for further comparison. X (skill) = Y% of healing done. That sort of thing.

 

That data is available in ACT, however it is hard to read and annoying to manually copy into excel to make pretty charts with. If i didnt have midterms tomorrow and the next day, I'd probably have included it already though.

[Nomei]

So to mimic the nerfs best I can on live, I just heal two warzones and got 100k and top healing both times

 

I heal with the following rules

-no Hammer shot

-no Kolto Shell

-no Kolto Missile

-no Combat Support Cylinder

 

Basically all I use was Healing Scan and Rapid Scan

 

Now the nerfs on 1.2 are not as bad as what I just heal with and now I'm going to see if I can heal flashpoints and I'm sure I'm going to be able to.

 

First, I will say that Ops definitely needed a bit of love and I'm glad they got it. I've done a lot of healing with both the BH and the SI classes, but I've only dabbled with the IA class (and I can see how they were struggling in the healing department). Sorcs definitely needed a little nerfing (and I say that even though I play that class). That having been said, if IA the only class you've done much healing on, I don't see the point of any of your posts.

 

Are you saying that you healed 100k healing in a few warzones by using nothing but Healing Scan and Rapid Scan in order to mimic the proposed changes? I'm not sure how you can even begin to have an understanding of how the upcoming changes might affect this class' gameplay by doing so. Not to mention that they were likely not level 50 warzones so you wouldn't have been going into matches with/against fully geared BM's and frankly (with respect), lower level PvP is ridiculously easy to heal on any class as long as you aren't getting CC'ed and/or focused.

 

The two abilities you used for your 'test' will be more expensive and will heal for less (not just one or the other) if the proposed changes go live. Not going into all the other changes, I think the fear that many Mercs/Commandos have is ending up with heat costs so expensive on their higher throughput abilities that after 2-4 casts, they will end up having to either stand around doing nothing but shooting useless Rapid Shots at dying players (not to mention being unable to even use Rapid Shots on themselves) or use their two minute CD to vent their heat in order to heal for another 2-4 casts if the incoming damage continues to be dire. Add to that the decrease in heat venting and healing buff for Supercharged Gas, and heat will build very, very quickly.

 

I enjoy both PvP and PvE but tend to veer toward the unpredictable nature of PvP. I would like to comment more on PvE but I lack the information to do so, so I'll stick with what information I do have.

 

If you do much PvP, you'll know that incoming damage is almost always 'dire' and usually coming from more than one attacker, and so heat management is important. With ranked PvP, there will be more organization than with the current warzone setup (where you may find yourself to be the only healer at times, and it's imperative that you don't overheat trying to keep up the ball handler in HB or making sure everyone doesn't die on one side so the enemy can cap in a VS). Ranked PvP will certainly help in terms of maintaining reasonable heat levels/throughput and part of that will include being better able to work with your fellow healers (which ops groups will have a leg up on). However, there is a huge BUT, and it's the one I keep seeing you bring up. Since the nerfs to Mercs/Commandos may negatively affect most of our healing abilities, will ranked PvP groups still want us or will they view us as the "new" Ops regardless of whether or not our healing will actually be that gimped? The fear is that things will not be balanced as BW is stating but instead there will still be classes that groups simply don't want.

 

The bottom line is that if you don't like being taken along only when there is no one else available because of your class, do you think anyone else does, either? It goes both ways. Furthermore, I haven't seen anyone in this thread stating that your class doesn't need the buff you're getting, which makes your repetitive comments about IA's yet more unproductive.

 

One last point - you and others keep saying that people are "crying" about changes that they haven't tested but then you, yourself, turn around and say you haven't tested them either. Unless BW has announced in the last few days that they've implemented the ability to have a single character copied to the PTR without their guild, many players remain unable to test with all their abilities at level cap, which is probably adding to the strong reactions they're having. I have heard (although I'm not sure if it's true) that BW is working on straight character copying to the PTR but if not, I'll just cross my fingers that they didn't screw up so badly that I will no longer enjoy my preferred class due to it being undesirable to the masses. Nerfs happen whether they're needed or not, and I always try to roll with them and relearn how to play my class, but it certainly isn't always fun. It won't be enough to make me go back to Pandas and Pokemon.

 

By the way, I see in your sig that you are dyslexic and I apologize if such a long post may prove difficult for you, but I hope that the length of my post helped to make clear to you what I (and I suspect many others) are getting at. Forgive any typos or repetition as it's late and I'm sleepy.

 

Kudos to the OP and friends for the time spent testing! I don't think that you were just looking for negatives and in fact, I found that you stated on several points that your results were what BW said they should be even if you also found some seeming discrepancies. I like to know the inner workings of my classes. The results have been an interesting read and I'll keep tabs on the thread.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Nomei

[RuQu]

Just wanted to link you guys to my thread (posted elsewhere) with some of our healers #'s from tonights raid, for your comparison

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3619810#post3619810

 

Great data, Gramz. Thanks for the testing and effort.

 

If you guys could, I would greatly appreciate it if you could perform the following test and provide the same graphs (plus Effective HPS) that you just posted:

 

1. Run Story Mode EV/KP.
   
2. Run NMM EV/KP (or HM, but I seem to recall Cali saying you guys do NMMs)
   

 

(Do one or both, but if only one do the same one on SM and NMM. Separate logs for each boss, please).

 

The Normal Mode data should look a lot like your current plots of near balance. Imbalance will not show until you hit content that has more damage coming in than one of the healers can handle and the others pick up the slack. NMM logs for each fight should show an HPS cap for the weaker two classes that the third makes up for. It may only show in Effective HPS for the Sorc due to AoE overheal padding their raw HPS numbers.

 

Thanks again for the effort.

 

My reply to your thread is copied here in the spoiler tags. It includes a caveat for interpreting that type of data before people jump to conclusions and includes a repeat of my test request I just asked for here.

 

 

Gramz, for those of us who haven't had the chance to run these encounters yet, can you describe them as pertains to healing? Can you also post your general gear level (ie mostly Rakata).

 

The HPS graph closely follows the total healing. Can we get an Effective HPS as well that takes out the over-healing?

 

As was mentioned, the first fight looks AoE heavy, judging by the large amounts of over-heal by the Sorcs and Operative who have HoT based AoE.

 

Can you also provide more info on the role of your off-spec Sorc? Was he healing as a DPS build, or does he normally DPS but switched to his off-spec for this run?

 

Thank you for the charts and data. I want to point out a caveat though:

 

It is important for people to realize the limitations of this type of data. If 1/4 of the incoming total damage is less than or equal to the HPS possible by each healer, we should expect them all to be doing roughly equal effective healing, with some exception for the awesomeness of Sorc AoE.

 

We should not expect to see any difference until the incoming DPS exceeds the throughput of a class. For example:

 

You have 2 classes:

A can heal for 1000 HPS

B can heal for 500 HPS

 

If the boss does 1000 DPS total to the raid group, you should expect to see 500 HPS from both healers and they will appear balanced.

 

Once the boss DPS exceeds 1000, you will see class A's HPS number increase, but class B will continue to only do 500HPS. Once the boss DPS exceeds 1500, you wipe.

 

So these charts show that in your level of gear, the boss is putting out damage that everyone can keep up with.

 

If you could, I would like to see plots from you guys running Normal Mode EV or KP, and then again running whatever the highest mode you run on Live is (NMM if I remember Cali's thread correctly). I hypothesize that your Normal Mode graphs will look a lot like these: fairly even with the exception of a slight Sorc advantage in AoE heavy encounters like the first boss of EV, and very even on a boss like the first in KP. Doing it on NMM will should show what class starts to hit their limits first and who takes up that extra weight.

 

Thanks again for all the work and dedication to testing.