Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[Brakner]

That's all nice and dandy, but what about the casual players and not-so-top end content? These changes hurt those players hard as well as the game is alread y to difficult for that group of players.

 

Basically he/they did a bait and switch at the expense of the casual player, the same crap that my local PC store does. Advertize something that is "to good to be true" then when you pay and they have to deliver, they change it to something of "equal value". But it never is.

 

Basically we are all playing Wow 2.0 with lighsabers and I bet they new months ago they were going to do this, if blizzard can sustain 10 million subscribers with blanket nerfs every few months, BW new they had nothing to worry about......Sigh

Edited March 24, 2012 by Brakner

[Masturomenos]

The reason for some of the changes is in fact to increase the challenge level of top end content by tightening class balance. Healing through top end content was, as a fact, not tightly balanced enough in the past and a prime contributor to the fact that our top end difficulty content was just not providing the challenge level people expected.

 

This encapsulates both the medpac change (without being able to make safe assumption about the availability of optional healing, it is impossible to strike a reliable balance that doesn't require people to shell out hundreds of thousands of credits for item based healing) as well as the class changes.

 

The other major reason is class to class and role to role balance.

 

You do understand the 1% dont pay the bills. The 99% do and unless you plan on alloing everyone to do that content some other way all youve accomplished is making sre the players not in the 1% ever do get t see it. Ive posted bfore this exact point when you (BW) want people to test content you dont ask for regular guilds you ask for the best guilds which devs keeping thinking they can out smart o trick and ove many years the opposite has ben proven. Instead of nerfing to make your design work how about designing a more engaging fight and making content that is truly amazing rather then lackluster then nerfing to make it see harder.

 

Also to the people saying its like wow 2.0 i feel is an insult to wow. Wow gve tools to its players to record numbers and then nerfed buffed depending on results then always backing nerfs and buffs with proof. All e have from bioware is 'take our word for it' and no proof. Oh and to be bioware and to be ok with being wow 4 years ago is just sad. You had 5 years plus to mke this game these changes pove you didnt do it right so now we are to accept that what you coudlnt and didnt do in 5 years youve fixed in 2 months? Common lets be realistic we are not stupid we are paying to play a game from what we consider a top team not paying to get busted conent made to look hard by destorying classes to fit a half *** job.

 

Id rather have one patch with content a year that works and it truly hard because of mechanics i ca be proud to do then 10 a year that come out half ***. If i wanted that id keep playing Rift.

 

Im sure that there are thousands if not millions of people still playing mario kart on snes and its because it was fun and done right. Thats the goal you should aim for not the goal of 'ok' but the goal of great.

[LuthirFontaine]

Got to feel bad for them...

 

Nerf healing: !$!$# you, you nerfed my toon i unsub now!!

 

Dont nerf healing: @#@! you, content is too easy....healerz are op as hell i unsub now!!

 

 

adapt and overcome....Not the end of the world for your class..

Edited March 24, 2012 by LuthirFontaine

[RuQu]

Got to feel bad for them...

 

Nerf healing: !$!$# you, you nerfed my toon i unsub now!!

 

Dont nerf healing: @#@! you, content is too easy....healerz are op as hell i unsub now!!

 

 

adapt and overcome....Not the end of the world for your class..

 

I feel worse for them for the inability to see more than two options. All you see are options A and B, I see a whole lot more off the top of my head.

 

Option A: Nerf healing.

 

Option B: Do nothing.

 

Option C: Re-tune NMM content.

 

Option D: Leave current tier alone, ensure NMM of new Op is really hard.

 

Option E: Adjust healing in ways that increase skill-reward. Make the class easy to learn, hard to master. ie, decrease scaling on Adv Med Probe and Med Probe, but increase the bonus from SCC. Perhaps introduce some downsides to SCC choices, and additional options under its effects, such as a stacking buff from chain casting MP that increases its power but lowers it efficiency. Choice is good, especially if the right choice differs from one situation to another and the wrong choice for the moment has consequences.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Basically he/they did a bait and switch at the expense of the casual player, the same crap that my local PC store does. Advertize something that is "to good to be true" then when you pay and they have to deliver, they change it to something of "equal value". But it never is.

 

Basically we are all playing Wow 2.0 with lighsabers and I bet they new months ago they were going to do this, if blizzard can sustain 10 million subscribers with blanket nerfs every few months, BW new they had nothing to worry about......Sigh

 

That is not the definition of bait and switch.

 

Bait and switch is an illegal act of fraud businesses do. What it encompasses is one product advertised for an extremely low price (reduced price product never existed in the first place) to BAIT you to their store . Once you the customer come to the store you are informed by a sales clerk that the advertised product is no longer available. At this point they SWITCH you to a more expensive product. They will usually describe the switched product as better anyway and more worth your money.

 

 

So as you can see your interpretation is off.

[RedWolfs]

That is not the definition of bait and switch.

 

Bait and switch is an illegal act of fraud businesses do. What it encompasses is one product advertised for an extremely low price (reduced price product never existed in the first place) to BAIT you to their store . Once you the customer come to the store you are informed by a sales clerk that the advertised product is no longer available. At this point they SWITCH you to a more expensive product. They will usually describe the switched product as better anyway and more worth your money.

 

 

So as you can see your interpretation is off.

 

As in the class action case against SOE post NGE, they lost, advertising one game, selling one game, and then changing that game into another game, is bait and switch. That change constitutes substitution of product. You paid for game A, but they switched it into game B after the sale. Game B being a game the customer would not have bought and paid for, it is fraud to do so. Product price or market value are not required for bait and switch, just delivering or altering in such away as to alter the perceived (subjective) value of the product. Since they sold a game, prior to the addition of the monthly subscription (access/use) fees, the bait and switch argument works, and has held up in court under similar circumstances.

 

SWTOR 1.0 was/is a friendly to casual players game, SWTOR 1.2 as proposed and on PTS is a hardcore game, the audience for each is different. These are two different products, it is reasonable for Bioware to expect that customers buying SWTOR 1.0 would not be interested in the changes to 1.2. The only way they could side step the case would be to offer a classic server set for players who did not want, would not accept the substitution of the game to play on and with, such as SOE did in the case of Everquest.

 

I could go on and on, on these issues, but needless to say Bioware is on thin ice with this course of action.

[Dafroog]

You avoided my question. I can only assume you haven't healed HM+ ops as a merc healer....and you really don't know the level of challenge.

 

No you are correct, I dont have a healer main, my guild does have healers tho and i do keep hearing from them that the content is too easy and the only challenge they have is learning to live without quality of life features like debuff traking, ToT and mouseover healing

 

The problem is not only the level of skill....is the gear already acquired....it is very easy to say these changes aren't too harsh when you already have all the end game gear possible because you beat the game when it was supposedly too easy.

 

Tier 1 HM/NM should be tuned for a rakata geared group, thats just the way progression works, its gated by the speed of which items drop in that instance, each peice of gear you get from the first boss improves your changes of beating the next boss and so on, if you can clear the content without the gear that drops from it then there is something wrong with the end game design and content will be cleared too quickly (as was the case with 1.0/1.1)

 

 

I am not saying they should not have nerfed some classes including us....but the extent of these changes are way, way too crippling to our class.

 

If devs think elite people will leave the game because it is too easy....what do you think is going to happen when the non elite masses find out they are paying for content they will never beat.

 

Not much as they arent paying for content they will never see, as there is a version of the content that they can see (story mode) and if they are that desperate to see the exact same content but tuned to be harder, then they have 2 options, they can either learn to play better or wait until they outgear it when the next tier is released

 

Bottom line is it shouldn't be required to wear Rakata gear to be able to beat the mobs that drop it on HM...

 

But it should require Rakata gear to beat the entire instance where that gear is dropping as the gear drops are there to gate progression, if you are clearing content with a group thats only wearing gear from the tier below then the content is too easy, the only thing you should be clearing while in the lower tier gear is the first boss or 2, the last boss should be tuned so it takes being almost fully decked out in the gear thats been dropping in that instance, thats how progression works

[RuQu]

*bait and switch etc*

 

These changes are clearly tweaks to a game which explicitly says the gameplay may change. Class balance changes are inherent in the industry and fundamental to the nature of MMOs.

 

The NGE was a complete redesign of the game's mechanics and they way the game played. It was a completely different game.

 

The two cannot reasonably be equated.

 

I understand that you are upset. I bought a Windows license and partitioned my Mac's HD just to play this game. That is significant outlay just for a game (and additional $100+) and if this game goes in a direction I find unenjoyable I will be quite disappointed.

 

It is not, however, a bait and switch, it is simply bad balancing. Protest it, build a case against it, unsubscribe, whatever, but save yourself the money of a failed lawsuit 'cause it has zero chance of winning.

 

Regardless, this discussion is WAY off-topic. If you want to talk about suing BW, that probably deserves a thread of its own, don't you think?

[Brittaany_Banks]

As in the class action case against SOE post NGE, they lost, advertising one game, selling one game, and then changing that game into another game, is bait and switch. That change constitutes substitution of product. You paid for game A, but they switched it into game B after the sale. Game B being a game the customer would not have bought and paid for, it is fraud to do so. Product price or market value are not required for bait and switch, just delivering or altering in such away as to alter the perceived (subjective) value of the product. Since they sold a game, prior to the addition of the monthly subscription (access/use) fees, the bait and switch argument works, and has held up in court under similar circumstances.

 

SWTOR 1.0 was/is a friendly to casual players game, SWTOR 1.2 as proposed and on PTS is a hardcore game, the audience for each is different. These are two different products, it is reasonable for Bioware to expect that customers buying SWTOR 1.0 would not be interested in the changes to 1.2. The only way they could side step the case would be to offer a classic server set for players who did not want, would not accept the substitution of the game to play on and with, such as SOE did in the case of Everquest.

 

I could go on and on, on these issues, but needless to say Bioware is on thin ice with this course of action.

 

The "loss" you are referring to was releasing and selling an expansion, then shortly after changing the entire game completely after that expansion was released instead of informing players of the change the developers knew for months was coming and allowing the players to make an informed decision. SoE was forced to give a full refund to players who wanted it FOR THE EXPANSION ONLY. THAT was the loss. NOT their decision to change the game wholesale. Had they decided to change the game WITHOUT offering an expansion there would have been no lawsuit grounds.

 

"Game experience may change during online play"

 

This simply means that the game you started playing on Dec 15 2011 will more than likely change down the road and continue to change. Law allows online game developers to change the game as they see fit. If you brought a class action lawsuit against BW for the changes in 1.2 it'll be laughed out of court.

 

 

I personally believe BW is going to make A LOT of end game players unhappy with this patch. However BW will pay for their shortsightedness by bleeding subs.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Brittaany_Banks

[davilorius]

What surprised everyone was that somehow the devs decided that Merc Healers were the most overpowered healers and had to nerf their output 30%, change their rotation to include rapid shots the majority of the time. To boot the biggest nerfs to Merc dps also hit healers the hardest (for the small percent of the time we do damage) with DFA 60% area reduction and Power Shot reduction (for those of us who put the point in muzzle fluting).

 

I think why we see a lot of people threatening to unsub is because they don't feel like they have other leverage. They are invested in their character and don't want to go roll a sorc who will heal 40% more than mercs or operatives even after 1.2 nerfs.

 

Mercs were the tank healers because they could plant themselves and pump out good sustained healing thanks to the healing scan/rapid scan sequence heat reduction and supercharged gas. Now I just don't know. I think mercs are the healers that will go on raids because a healer is needed and they happen to be available.

 

I think there will be fewer merc healers in the long run. Constantly managing heat as a top priority and shooting a lot of rapid shots (that heals 2-3% of someone's health) is just not really a fun mini-game. It's about as exciting as doing accounting. Otherwise we lack a lot of the big fun perks of other healing classes like the sprint, leap, stealth etc.

[RedWolfs]

No you are correct, I dont have a healer main, my guild does have healers tho and i do keep hearing from them that the content is too easy and the only challenge they have is learning to live without quality of life features like debuff traking, ToT and mouseover healing

 

 

 

Tier 1 HM/NM should be tuned for a rakata geared group, thats just the way progression works, its gated by the speed of which items drop in that instance, each peice of gear you get from the first boss improves your changes of beating the next boss and so on, if you can clear the content without the gear that drops from it then there is something wrong with the end game design and content will be cleared too quickly (as was the case with 1.0/1.1)

 

 

 

 

Not much as they arent paying for content they will never see, as there is a version of the content that they can see (story mode) and if they are that desperate to see the exact same content but tuned to be harder, then they have 2 options, they can either learn to play better or wait until they outgear it when the next tier is released

 

 

 

But it should require Rakata gear to beat the entire instance where that gear is dropping as the gear drops are there to gate progression, if you are clearing content with a group thats only wearing gear from the tier below then the content is too easy, the only thing you should be clearing while in the lower tier gear is the first boss or 2, the last boss should be tuned so it takes being almost fully decked out in the gear thats been dropping in that instance, thats how progression works

 

Think outside of the OP's for just a second, consider what these changes mean to the mediocre or even average skill level player who may never see the insides of a normal mode operation. The soloist who likes to play overland, and may even avoid heroics, this is not a small group of people, look at the numbers of those on the early planets still who have not seen cap, much less post endgame content.

 

What do these changes mean for that not so small group of players? This game is becoming harder for everyone.... This is the dumbest thing Bioware can do. Why even have multiple difficulty levels, just have the super duper nightmare hard mode with sharks with lasers on their heads in the game. That way only people who are hard core enough can have any fun with this game.

 

The only answer that will lead to SWTOR being anything other than a side note in MMO history is to make hard content for those who want hard content, but not to cripple those who were having fun with 1.0 as it was and don't give a flying leap about pvp or ops. Have debuffs in the ops/wz's is another option if hard enough content is beyond BW's skill level. Lastly give players the option of classic servers if they think the new 'balance', is not a good balance for them.

 

Stop the NBE.... that is the new balance edition .... to SWTOR. It really is a New Game Enhancement all over.

[Aaoogaa]

Da Froog is correct in his post. They should have tuned the raids better...not nerfed the classes to the level of the raids they had in. BW failed in beta to make the game as it should have been...they failed processing their own metrics...they failed hard. So now instead of fixing what they did they have decided to fail again and nerf the classes.

[RedWolfs]

The "loss" you are referring to was releasing and selling an expansion, then shortly after changing the entire game completely after that expansion was released instead of informing players of the change the developers knew for months was coming and allowing the players to make an informed decision.

 

"Game experience may change during online play"

 

This simply means that the game you started playing on Dec 15 2011 will more than likely change down the road and continue to change. Law allows online game developers to change the game as they see fit. If you brought a class action lawsuit against BW for the changes in 1.2 it'll be laughed out of court.

 

 

I personally believe BW is going to make A LOT of end game players unhappy with this patch. However BW will pay for their shortsightedness by bleeding subs.

 

Game experience may change online by means of the games rating, but not the fundamental mechanics of the game itself. That means the warnings on the side of the box may not be the only objectionable material you encounter if you play online. The SOE suit is not the only case law here, and its pretty consistent.

 

And we now have evidence that just prior to a renewal date for a large portion of the player base, a Bioware representative knowingly made false or misleading statements about the proposed changes to the product, to try to slow the bleed of subscription losses. Denying their player base the ability to make an informed decision about the direction of the game. Sound familiar? No this case would not be laughed out of court. In fact there is a large chance it would never reach court, Bioware would probably settle given how stacked the deck would be against them.

 

You are right they will pay for this stupidity in more way than one. It will not only be end game players who are mad, those still leveling will see their game become much harder as a result of these changes, which may not be what they paid for either.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Game experience may change online by means of the games rating, but not the fundamental mechanics of the game itself. That means the warnings on the side of the box may not be the only objectionable material you encounter if you play online. The SOE suit is not the only case law here, and its pretty consistent.

 

And we now have evidence that just prior to a renewal date for a large portion of the player base, a Bioware representative knowingly made false or misleading statements about the proposed changes to the product, to try to slow the bleed of subscription losses. Denying their player base the ability to make an informed decision about the direction of the game. Sound familiar? No this case would not be laughed out of court. In fact there is a large chance it would never reach court, Bioware would probably settle given how stacked the deck would be against them.

 

You are right they will pay for this stupidity in more way than one. It will not only be end game players who are mad, those still leveling will see their game become much harder as a result of these changes, which may not be what they paid for either.

 

Go ahead and waste your time on a Class Action lawsuit then. Good luck.

[RedWolfs]

Go ahead and waste your time on a Class Action lawsuit then. Good luck.

 

I hope I don't have to, but I am not going to just throw away my purchase price of the original game by only unsubscribing if it comes down to it.

[Sengar]

Are any of these tests being done with the addition of augments for every possible slot? Healing is going down yes, but every character is getting buffed as well.

 

Yet everyone seems to miss this fact.

 

28 points across at least 5 more slots will help...some. I'd really like to see testing done factoring these additional 140 points.

 

And yes, I'd help test, if they would only copy my guild over.

[Miraj]

Eh. I'd rather give up the extra stats from augment slots in order to not have to spam hammer shot over and over again, and instead have a more interesting gameplay experience.

 

If commandos really were out performing expectation (and they haven't said what that expectation was, nor addressed whether it was perhaps some of the unintended consequences from stacking Kolto Bomb etc.) then there were a LOT of ways to change that to reduce our output without us qualifying for the 'Ghost Buster' title.

[RuQu]

Are any of these tests being done with the addition of augments for every possible slot? Healing is going down yes, but every character is getting buffed as well.

 

Yet everyone seems to miss this fact.

 

28 points across at least 5 more slots will help...some. I'd really like to see testing done factoring these additional 140 points.

 

And yes, I'd help test, if they would only copy my guild over.

 

Those points only benefit top-tier end-game.

 

In fact, if the point was to make end-game content harder, adding these augments is completely backwards. Wealthy and experienced players will be able to benefit from buying/crafting crit-crafted gear with the extra slots plus the augment itself. Leveling and entry-raiding players will not. This makes content harder on those least experienced, and easiest on those who are currently requesting harder content.

 

The current non-augmented gear actually lost item budget, and has fewer stats, further nerfing the players who cannot afford the extra slots.

 

If the goal here was to make HM and NMM harder without punishing new and casual players, then they did almost completely the wrong things.

[icroyal]

I very much disagree with how Bioware is re-balancing the entire game in a knee-jerk fashion. They're re-itemizing, they're changing a ton of things about the classes, etc.. I agree with the Tier 1 re-itemization of the Rakata as the Rakata was horribly itemized (lol @ the dev who itemized Rakata as he clearly didn't know what the heck he was doing). But I disagree with how drastically they are revamping the classes.

 

I feel like my guild (we're a hard mode guild) is getting punished due to elite guilds feeling like the encounters are not challenging enough.

[Dafroog]

Think outside of the OP's for just a second, consider what these changes mean to the mediocre or even average skill level player who may never see the insides of a normal mode operation. The soloist who likes to play overland, and may even avoid heroics, this is not a small group of people, look at the numbers of those on the early planets still who have not seen cap, much less post endgame content.

 

What do these changes mean for that not so small group of players? This game is becoming harder for everyone.... This is the dumbest thing Bioware can do. Why even have multiple difficulty levels, just have the super duper nightmare hard mode with sharks with lasers on their heads in the game. That way only people who are hard core enough can have any fun with this game.

 

The only answer that will lead to SWTOR being anything other than a side note in MMO history is to make hard content for those who want hard content, but not to cripple those who were having fun with 1.0 as it was and don't give a flying leap about pvp or ops. Have debuffs in the ops/wz's is another option if hard enough content is beyond BW's skill level. Lastly give players the option of classic servers if they think the new 'balance', is not a good balance for them.

 

Stop the NBE.... that is the new balance edition .... to SWTOR. It really is a New Game Enhancement all over.

 

 

I'm leveling a smuggler sawbones specc currently on live, atm they are the worst healers in the game (which is why they are the only healers recieving a slight buff), but leveling is very easy, much easier than leveling any other class ive played, so the nerf to healing is not going to break the game for a solo player at all

[DaxRendar]

Those points only benefit top-tier end-game.

 

In fact, if the point was to make end-game content harder, adding these augments is completely backwards. Wealthy and experienced players will be able to benefit from buying/crafting crit-crafted gear with the extra slots plus the augment itself. Leveling and entry-raiding players will not. This makes content harder on those least experienced, and easiest on those who are currently requesting harder content.

 

The current non-augmented gear actually lost item budget, and has fewer stats, further nerfing the players who cannot afford the extra slots.

 

If the goal here was to make HM and NMM harder without punishing new and casual players, then they did almost completely the wrong things.

 

^^This^^

 

We know another pass is coming on the PTS and they are going to have to make up for a lot to keep CM/BG viable PRE-ENDGAME/TOP-TIER.

[Wynn]

Healers get buff and nerf since mmos started, so sick of the Sorc/Mercs quitting the game over patch notes and wont even look at the big picture.

 

Right now 95% of the hard mode raid strats talking about Sorc healers, which was great for me as an IA when I knew the guild is hurt taking me do to healing output.

 

The merc healer that I heal with that brags that he can out heal me and dps at the same for weeks. Days before the note he was going on about "dps its fine standing in bad I have endless heat." He unsub as soon as he saw the notes.

 

Aoe healing for raids teams is going up not down if you look at the big picture the sky is not falling.

[Blaac]

Those points only benefit top-tier end-game.

 

In fact, if the point was to make end-game content harder, adding these augments is completely backwards. Wealthy and experienced players will be able to benefit from buying/crafting crit-crafted gear with the extra slots plus the augment itself. Leveling and entry-raiding players will not. This makes content harder on those least experienced, and easiest on those who are currently requesting harder content.

 

The current non-augmented gear actually lost item budget, and has fewer stats, further nerfing the players who cannot afford the extra slots.

 

If the goal here was to make HM and NMM harder without punishing new and casual players, then they did almost completely the wrong things.

 

Not really... there are TONS of orange patterns available now that no one has bothered to make because they couldn't live up the the top end standards. Now that gear can be made and players can use top end mods in it just as well, there are bound to be more available. Also with the addition of Augments to 3 different crew skills it should reduce the stupid prices top end augments cost.

 

Money is not hard to get in this game, I have a single character at level 22 that has made millions off crew skills alone, not to mention that running lvl 50 dailies earns you about 10k credits a pop... which means you do only 10 a day thats 100k credits easily (not counting the money from drops)... If you cant live on 100k credits per day when you arent spending it on repairs from HM/NM gear (cuz obviously if the "casual" is the argument then they arent being run)... where is your money being wasted?

 

My server you can buy unmoddable 126 gear for 20-100k credits, moddable for 80-250k. We're not talking millions of credits per piece here.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Blaac

[RedWolfs]

I'm leveling a smuggler sawbones specc currently on live, atm they are the worst healers in the game (which is why they are the only healers recieving a slight buff), but leveling is very easy, much easier than leveling any other class ive played, so the nerf to healing is not going to break the game for a solo player at all

 

This may be true for you, but what about a player of lesser skill? You know the ones here for story mode and not more....

 

Already seen one such player who lives in my home, who finds the changes game breaking. Guess you just have to be leet enough to play swtor now?

[RedWolfs]

Not really... there are TONS of orange patterns available now that no one has bothered to make because they couldn't live up the the top end standards. Now that gear can be made and players can use top end mods in it just as well, there are bound to be more available. Also with the addition of Augments to 3 different crew skills it should reduce the stupid prices top end augments cost.

 

Money is not hard to get in this game, I have a single character at level 22 that has made millions off crew skills alone, not to mention that running lvl 50 dailies earns you about 10k credits a pop... which means you do only 10 a day thats 100k credits easily (not counting the money from drops)... If you cant live on 100k credits per day when you arent spending it on repairs from HM/NM gear (cuz obviously if the "casual" is the argument then they arent being run)... where is your money being wasted?

 

My server you can buy unmoddable 126 gear for 20-100k credits, moddable for 80-250k. We're not talking millions of credits per piece here.

 

And you made his point for him.... what about the normal not hard core players?