How many of us will be retiring our Jugg after 2.1??

[Tsavvy]

I'm rerolling. I played a mage in WoW, so I've basically gone from having an versatile pvp toolbox (blink, iceblock, poly, snares, roots, invis).... to having none as a juggernaut. I thought playing jugg would be like an arms warrior, but its not nearly as fun.

 

Maybe going to roll a sniper. They have good dps, controlled stuns and a knockback. Plus they don't have to deal with janky melee mechanics.

[lordofdamornin]

Yes you can change from the obsolete Rage Jugg to a tank specced Jugg, but it's not the same thing at all - and why shouldn't Juggs have competative DPS specs?

 

And if you do that well frankly a Tankassin is still probably the better option.

 

 

So the choice for Juggs in 1.2 seems to be play a sub par class or roll a Marauder or Assassin...... not a great set of choices really, is it.

 

If you are going to quote someone, you should probably quote what they actually said, instead of what someone else said.

 

The person I was quoting implied that we don't have an AE tank spec, and my response was a counterpoint. I don't recall saying anything about dps, really.

 

Juggs do have competitive dps specs - 2 of them, in fact. This really isn't going to change that much in 1.2, despite the moaning on this board. We are competitive now, and we will still be competitive then.

 

So, I disagree with your statement that Juggs only have 2 choices, because I believe there is a third one;

 

First, learn what the changes mean, and how they affect the class in terms of spec, survivability, synergy, and ability usage. Then, if necessary, modify your play accordingly to maximize what the class can do. I like option 3, maybe you (and others) don't.

 

That's fine.

 

Riôt

[WarSiren]

note the n2 on the list, he was vengeance in full BM and he was playing against the same team.

 

also vs a good premade i can still make the same numbers if the match is as long as this one.

 

so why dont you make a screenie of a long voidstar match with your dmg as vengeance and post it here.

 

till then, pls su bout shizzel yu know nuthing about.

 

You'll see plenty screen shots plus Videos when PvP actually matters when rated starts and I have to actually play against good team comps and players. Right now screen shots is like saying I'm the some what smart kid on the short bus. I mean it makes you feel good sure but it's kind of pointless.

[Sykomyke]

I'm rerolling. I played a mage in WoW, so I've basically gone from having an versatile pvp toolbox (blink, iceblock, poly, snares, roots, invis).... to having none as a juggernaut. I thought playing jugg would be like an arms warrior, but its not nearly as fun.

 

Maybe going to roll a sniper. They have good dps, controlled stuns and a knockback. Plus they don't have to deal with janky melee mechanics.

 

Playing a sniper is FUN! I haven't played a full-on DPS class since....Vanilla WoW. (Usually played Buff/Debuff/CC classes....aka Loremaster in LOTRO)

 

Sniper is a load of fun. I tried an operative (as a healer actually) but just couldn't deal with the "I have a blaster rifle but I'll use my knife more!" type of fighting.

 

I want to level a sorcerer as DPS too but the class has been overpopulated for months.

[Tsavvy]

Playing a sniper is FUN! I haven't played a full-on DPS class since....Vanilla WoW. (Usually played Buff/Debuff/CC classes....aka Loremaster in LOTRO)

 

Sniper is a load of fun. I tried an operative (as a healer actually) but just couldn't deal with the "I have a blaster rifle but I'll use my knife more!" type of fighting.

 

I want to level a sorcerer as DPS too but the class has been overpopulated for months.

 

Good to hear. I was thinking sorc too, but theres way too many.

 

I'm going to level a scoundrel instead of an operative. Because they backstab with a shotgun.

[Goretzu]

If you are going to quote someone, you should probably quote what they actually said, instead of what someone else said.

 

The person I was quoting implied that we don't have an AE tank spec, and my response was a counterpoint. I don't recall saying anything about dps, really.

 

Juggs do have competitive dps specs - 2 of them, in fact. This really isn't going to change that much in 1.2, despite the moaning on this board. We are competitive now, and we will still be competitive then.

 

So, I disagree with your statement that Juggs only have 2 choices, because I believe there is a third one;

 

First, learn what the changes mean, and how they affect the class in terms of spec, survivability, synergy, and ability usage. Then, if necessary, modify your play accordingly to maximize what the class can do. I like option 3, maybe you (and others) don't.

 

That's fine.

 

Riôt

 

You quoted me, pal. (check your post)

 

Rage will be less competative than Mara Rage in any way your want to judge it.

 

Read the post I've linked if you want to learn something and not complain about someone replying to your quote of them.

 

 

Veng isn't being hit as hard, certainly, but it's not going to compete with Marauder specs in a similar role.

 

snip.

 

Why not have an AoE tank spec instead or something?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[VoidJustice]

I had so much hope for 1.2 it was really what kept the wind in my sails.

So little left to hope for...

 

I guess we can see if the other nerfs made us balanced?

Most likely not thou.. I did just start a sentinal thou... /shrug

I'd like to play the game in a semi balanced way... Im tired of

being the underdog.

[lordofdamornin]

Learn something? From you, Goretzu?

 

No offense, but no one who is just an e-voice has ever really taught me anything. I learn from those I know, and have actually witnessed their play. On this forum so far, Dracosz is the only one on that list, because I have watched him play, live. I have yet to see him solo-queue, which changes things, but I am sure I will, at some point.

 

Do you have vids uploaded or a stream I can watch? Then, perhaps, you can teach me something. You are welcome to your theory-crafted opinions, of course, just know that I will probably disagree with any sky-is-falling/reroll statements from you, or anyone else.

 

Again, my point has been that we are competitive now (all 3 specs), and we will be competitive (all 3 specs) in 1.2. There is no performance-related reason to reroll (perhaps respec, but that is not the same thing) when 1.2 hits.

 

Riôt

[ProsaicProse]

Um.. I'm playing both Jugg and Mara. They are fun. Edited March 20, 2012 by ProsaicProse

[Goretzu]

Learn something? From you, Goretzu?

 

No offense, but no one who is just an e-voice has ever really taught me anything. I learn from those I know, and have actually witnessed their play. On this forum so far, Dracosz is the only one on that list, because I have watched him play, live. I have yet to see him solo-queue, which changes things, but I am sure I will, at some point.

 

Do you have vids uploaded or a stream I can watch? Then, perhaps, you can teach me something. You are welcome to your theory-crafted opinions, of course, just know that I will probably disagree with any sky-is-falling/reroll statements from you, or anyone else.

 

Again, my point has been that we are competitive now (all 3 specs), and we will be competitive (all 3 specs) in 1.2. There is no performance-related reason to reroll (perhaps respec, but that is not the same thing) when 1.2 hits.

 

Riôt

 

Well if you can remember that you've quoted me, then who knows you just might.

 

But I didn't write it, however it is very good write up of the Rage change issues though.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[lordofdamornin]

Well if you can remember that you've quoted me, then who knows you just might.

 

But I didn't write it, however it is very good write up of the Rage change issues though.

 

I didn't need to remember - the point was that you misquoted me, by quoting someone else. In this case, it was yourself.

 

This write-up that you mention; is it this phantom link you said that you posted in this thread? Unless I missed it, you haven't posted any link in this thread so far. You did, however, post a link in another thread. Did you forget where you posted it?

 

Is this the discussion? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=368063

 

Indeed, it's another person posting information that looks to be true, and sound, but really isn't. There is a lot of that on these forums, and I hate it. Being wrong is fine, but it bothers me when people post misinformation, and spread ignorance.

 

These same people claim that Bioware (and other companies) don't listen to their customers...good thing they don't. To be clear, I am referring to Grim, not you.

 

The long and short of the Rage changes for Juggernaut is a smoothing of our damage curve. My points here mostly concern PvE, as I do not do enough PvP to really comment too deeply.

 

1) We are not actually going to end up with nearly as many fewer buffed Smashes as people think, and quite frankly, the buffed Smashes are the only ones that matter. I might have made a mistake somewhere, but I'm pretty sure it's around the 5 minute mark where we will have 1 less buffed Smash than we currently do. Oh Noes. Again, I might have made an error here, and I welcome a correction.

 

2) The same applies to Choke. We still only get 1/minute, and not until (again) roughly the 5 minute mark does this change. 5 minutes = 1 extra Choke, 10 minutes = 2, etc.

 

3) 10% loss on Smash damage sucks, to be sure, but; using 5 minutes again, 25 Smashes ~a generous 6k per, yields approximately 15k less damage (from Smash) over 5 minutes. Not really that bad.

 

4) Since they are pulling our Smashes farther apart, we kind of need to hit something to keep decent dps - and we are now going to be incentivized to use Vicious Slash (I always forget what this ability is called, I welcome a correction) to fill this gap. We'll see how it actually ends up working out, but it should be a decent trade, overall.

 

5) Scream - I think if any changes to the patch need to be looked at, it's here. We'll see.

 

Will we have to play different after 1.2? A bit, yes. Rage is still largely a 1TP, but now that may not matter so much. If I had to guess as to why Rage seems to have been buffed for Marauders...I'd say it was probably because it was inferior to the other 2 Mara specs, and needed some equalizing, without making the Jugg version stronger. So theirs gets buffed (I am sure there are Rage Maras now, but I don't know any personally), and ours is smoothed out.

 

Bioware can make mistakes (like melding Crash into Charge), but believe me when I tell you that a lot of thought goes into balance work before we get the patch notes. A lot of work, based on a lot of actual data. It is in their best interest to keep every spec of every class viable, and fun, in all parts of the game.

 

Riôt

Edited March 20, 2012 by lordofdamornin

[Goretzu]

I didn't need to remember - the point was that you misquoted me, by quoting someone else. In this case, it was yourself.

 

Huh, re-read what you posted, you quoted me.

 

I even requoted if for you above.

 

I'll even post it again for you, because I'm so nice!

 

|

V

Veng isn't being hit as hard, certainly, but it's not going to compete with Marauder specs in a similar role.

 

snip.

 

Why not have an AoE tank spec instead or something?

 

 

So is that you or an imposter using your account?

 

 

 

 

 

This write-up that you mention; is it this phantom link you said that you posted in this thread? Unless I missed it, you haven't posted any link in this thread so far. You did, however, post a link in another thread. Did you forget where you posted it?

 

I posted it in this thread.

 

Again because I'm so nice I'll show you and quote it:

 

Well for Rage spec at least it's pretty easy to see where.

 

There you go!

 

 

 

Indeed, it's another person posting information that looks to be true, and sound, but really isn't.

 

What is incorrect about it?

 

1) We are not actually going to end up with nearly as many fewer buffed Smashes as people think, and quite frankly, the buffed Smashes are the only ones that matter. I might have made a mistake somewhere, but I'm pretty sure it's around the 5 minute mark where we will have 1 less buffed Smash than we currently do. Oh Noes. Again, I might have made an error here, and I welcome a correction.

 

Personally I'm rarely waiting on a buff for smash, I'm usually waiting for Smash itself with the current CD, 3 seconds more is a long time to wait. In terms of rotation, DPS and burst.

 

3) 10% loss on Smash damage sucks, to be sure, but; using 5 minutes again, 25 Smashes ~a generous 6k per, yields approximately 15k less damage (from Smash) over 5 minutes. Not really that bad.

 

When added to the above it begins to add up. A 1% loss is un-noticable, 100 1% losses is very noticable.

 

4) Since they are pulling our Smashes farther apart, we kind of need to hit something to keep decent dps - and we are now going to be incentivized to use Vicious Slash (I always forget what this ability is called, I welcome a correction) to fill this gap. We'll see how it actually ends up working out, but it should be a decent trade, overall.

 

It cannot be for an extra Smash.

 

5) Scream - I think if any changes to the patch need to be looked at, it's here. We'll see.

 

We will.

 

Will we have to play different after 1.2? A bit, yes. Rage is still largely a 1TP, but now that may not matter so much. If I had to guess as to why Rage seems to have been buffed for Marauders...I'd say it was probably because it was inferior to the other 2 Mara specs, and needed some equalizing, without making the Jugg version stronger. So theirs gets buffed (I am sure there are Rage Maras now, but I don't know any personally), and ours is smoothed out.

 

Then why is Rage spec for Marauders better? Given that Rage Marauders already have utility at least as good and surviablity that will still likely be better (and have much less rage issues as things stand)?

 

Bioware can make mistakes (like melding Crash into Charge), but believe me when I tell you that a lot of thought goes into balance work before we get the patch notes. A lot of work, based on a lot of actual data. It is in their best interest to keep every spec of every class viable, and fun, in all parts of the game.

 

Riôt

 

I've seen Bioware run Warhammer Online for 20 months before SWTOR went Live, I'm fully aware that Bioware can make mistakes.

 

Although in this case I'm not entirely sure if they are intending to nerf things, or haven't realise they are.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Goretzu

[Schwarzwald]

If you are complaining about playing the juggernaut then you are not playing the juggernaut properly.

 

the only classes that should be giving you trouble in PvP are assassin tanks and PT/Vangaurd tanks, other then that, you have free reign to kill anything.

 

Sounds like a lot of crying from players who will probably experience the same 'problems' when they switch their class.

[rossonja]

Definitely gonna be keeping mine. It's been my favorite class so far by far. I am gonna try and level my Marauder though. Would like to see the dark side story play out, and see those high numbers at the end of a warzone.

[lordofdamornin]

Goretzu -

 

Indeed you did post a link, thanks for the correction. I don't want to be a source of misinformation.

 

As for your reposting of the quote...again, I didn't say that line about AE tank spec. You did, and this is the second time you have quoted it as if I was the one who originally said it.

 

I had a whole paragraph here, but I'll shorten it quite a bit by saying that it sounds like we differ on the definition of substantial damage nerf. Fair enough.

 

Regarding Mara's - I don't have one, so I can't speak with a great deal of knowledge about the specifics of that AC, or its specs. You had asked the general question, and I gave an answer as best I could. What I do know about Mara's, is that I feel very comfortable in saying that Rage is the least played Mara spec, and probably for good reason. If I had one, I would be hard-pressed to not be Annihilation, regardless of what I was doing in the game. I do know that much.

 

If I am correct in thinking that for Mara's, Rage is underperforming compared to Ann/Carnage, then they needed to buff it, without buffing our version, since ours is overall not underperforming compared to Vengeance. This would answer your question of *why buff theirs, but not ours,* but only if I am correct. It does appear that way, though.

 

"It cannot be for an extra Smash." I am assuming that you mean Vicious Slash vs. the lost Smash(es)? No, 1 to 1, it would not be a good trade. It may not end up being 1 to 1 though - that is what remains to be seen. If Vicious Slash turns out to be a good use of Rage between Smash cycles, then it will end up being a good trade. We will be a bit less of a 1TP, which I believe is part of Bioware's goal here, coupled with smoothing out our damage.

 

Riôt

[Dirtysolutions]

No. Ill keep mine

[Aethusa]

This is about dedication if you ask me.

If you are playing your class then go play what you want.

But if you want it to be like yourself as much as possible. Go try all of them to choose which one of them is exactly yours.

Then you are not going anywhere...

Edited March 21, 2012 by Aethusa

[Goretzu]

Goretzu -

 

Indeed you did post a link, thanks for the correction. I don't want to be a source of misinformation.

 

As for your reposting of the quote...again, I didn't say that line about AE tank spec. You did, and this is the second time you have quoted it as if I was the one who originally said it.

 

 

Er no.

 

My Post:

 

Veng isn't being hit as hard, certainly, but it's not going to compete with Marauder specs in a similar role.

 

The problem with Rage after it is nerfed is that Rage Marauders will do more DPS, have better Rage gen, have more surviability and more/better utility (Rage Juggs are already one of the squishiest classes in the game and a rage starving heal isn't going to change that).

 

Which begs the question of why then is there a Rage Jugg at all?

 

Why not have an AoE tank spec instead or something?

 

You can't "play" your way out of that, and "lol just play a Veng/Imortal Jugg kek!!!111" isn't a viable answer either, you'll just be better off playing a Rage Mara.

 

Your post:

 

Veng isn't being hit as hard, certainly, but it's not going to compete with Marauder specs in a similar role.

 

snip.

 

Why not have an AoE tank spec instead or something?

 

 

Only the first bit is my post, go back and read what you posted/quoted.

 

 

 

I had a whole paragraph here, but I'll shorten it quite a bit by saying that it sounds like we differ on the definition of substantial damage nerf. Fair enough.

 

It's going to be significant, both in max burst and sustainsed DPS.

 

 

Regarding Mara's - I don't have one, so I can't speak with a great deal of knowledge about the specifics of that AC, or its specs. You had asked the general question, and I gave an answer as best I could. What I do know about Mara's, is that I feel very comfortable in saying that Rage is the least played Mara spec, and probably for good reason. If I had one, I would be hard-pressed to not be Annihilation, regardless of what I was doing in the game. I do know that much.

 

If I am correct in thinking that for Mara's, Rage is underperforming compared to Ann/Carnage, then they needed to buff it, without buffing our version, since ours is overall not underperforming compared to Vengeance. This would answer your question of *why buff theirs, but not ours,* but only if I am correct. It does appear that way, though.

 

"It cannot be for an extra Smash." I am assuming that you mean Vicious Slash vs. the lost Smash(es)? No, 1 to 1, it would not be a good trade. It may not end up being 1 to 1 though - that is what remains to be seen. If Vicious Slash turns out to be a good use of Rage between Smash cycles, then it will end up being a good trade. We will be a bit less of a 1TP, which I believe is part of Bioware's goal here, coupled with smoothing out our damage.

 

Riôt

 

 

They've nerfed Rage Jugg and buffed Rage Mara...... the problem is Rage Mara was already more surviable and arguably better utility and now will do more damage and have easier focus gen too.

 

I'm not actually convinced currently Rage Mara do less sustained DPS than Rage Juggs, they just have a slightly smaller BOOM. The only reason there isn't more is that currently Anni is an obscenely good spec.

 

With 1.2 there is going to be nothing a Rage Jugg is better at than a Mara Jugg other than swapping into sorensu and gaurding someone..... which is rather a waste of a Rage spec certainly as an default.

[Darth-Rammstein]

This basically sums it up right there. Edited March 21, 2012 by Darth-Rammstein

[Darth-Rammstein]

Quote:

 

They've nerfed Rage Jugg and buffed Rage Mara...... the problem is Rage Mara was already more surviable and arguably better utility and now will do more damage and have easier focus gen too.

 

 

With 1.2 there is going to be nothing a Rage Jugg is better at than a Mara Jugg other than swapping into sorensu and gaurding someone..... which is rather a waste of a Rage spec certainly as an default.

 

 

sry, link didn't work in my previous post.

[beyondkilling]

This is the fix, dontcha know...

 

I started a marauder last night. Put me on your list.

 

yep my mara is lvl 44 but i will still play my jug alrdy got my full bm and now im gonna start tanking even tho tanking is boring as hell but hey what can i do we have the worst class in the game we are not allowed to even dps in NMM ops only normals and HMs but people dont like it

Edited March 21, 2012 by beyondkilling

[AGSThomas]

If you are complaining about playing the juggernaut then you are not playing the juggernaut properly.

 

the only classes that should be giving you trouble in PvP are assassin tanks and PT/Vangaurd tanks, other then that, you have free reign to kill anything.

 

Sounds like a lot of crying from players who will probably experience the same 'problems' when they switch their class.

 

As the OP I honestly don't want to change my class. I read your guide on Immortal DPS PvP and I havent looked back since. I've topped almost every WZ I go into in terms of medals and MVP votes and that has given me a feeling of usefulness to my team that the Mara couldn't offer. I'm just worried that they are buffing a lot of different classes and specs and they are slightly nerfing ours (or so I've heard the theory crafters state) If they are correct then it seems that more then just Sin tanks and PT's are gonna start beating us down.

[furiousferret]

I will not quit but am definitely frustrated.

 

I'm happy for the Mara's getting buffed but in the same token they outshine Jugg dps and utility in every way now. If you break it down by utility our dps penalty comess from guard and taunts. However I honestly think a player can be protected just as well by a marauder who can push out more dps and has a 6 second accuracy debuff that is better than guard (but longer cd)

 

So not only is our bread and butter class outshined by another class, but our other 2 trees are lacking as well. Sorry but I have been a healer guard and it just is not a very functional role. A healer can defend themselves and we lose dps and have to stay in a range that is really too close to do anything. Yes, I stance dance, but again, good dps makes a much better healing babysitter.

 

For rated wz's, I cant honestly have my team start me. Our big thing is to never have anyone go immune, but 2 Juggs charging gives them a free ride in Huttball. For melee dps, i'd take a PT or Mara over a Jugg anyday in rateds. Again, the classes guard and taunts just dont legitimize a spot.

 

So I know there are going to be replies that I am supposed to be a tank, however in PVP the only real role a Jugg Tank has is a Ball Carrier. So out of 4 warzones, there is one role to fill in one map. Again, i just dont think them standing next to a healer to soak up damage is a viable strategy. The Immortal DPS is just too lacking and too squishy.

 

I'm not going to shelf the Jugg, but my rated team has already alluded that my Operative healer is going to start in rateds and they're looking for mara's for dps.

 

Thats my opinion, and I'm 100% certain and when the damage meters come out that will more than confirm my frustrations.

[Elyx]

Love my Jugg

 

Rolling another one on the same server

 

Juggs are great for PvE. I don't play PvP so i can't comment on that. don't care too. But Im going to roll another once 1.2 hits on a species I prefer.

 

best class in the game IMO. have yet to find on that I enjoy more.

[Bastus]

Definitely keeping mine. Though I probably won't play it as much. I'm going to hold on to it until BW makes some changes. PVE is fine with this class, but I didn't come to this game to whack basic enemies all day. Might as well play like...runescape for that.