Everyone does not enjoy raiding

[Mephismo]

And you are assuming also. It is a fact..the majority of players in any MMO are not raiders. And his % he shows only shows those facts to be true. Designing the best content around raiding when the majorty of your player base does not raid..seems like a waste of resources. And is a design which will in the end...lead to less players. Unless you can make the raid content easily accessable for those who donot normally raid. WoW saw the wisdom in that logic and came out with the " Looking for Raid " tool. Which by the way...has been highly successful. Some will disagree...but it is hard to argue with success.

 

I agree with this guy

Its not the not wanting it’s the not being able, lack of skill and gear.

If the raid difficulty is set easy enough then more players raid and the RNG keeps them raiding and paying.

[Ghaiana]

Although part of the players thinks that MMO's are about raiding and endgames, there are also people who play MMO's for lots of other reasons. I did only a few raids (like maybe 10) in 10 years of playing MMO's. The main reason why I don't raid is that I don't want to schedule my gametime. So the only raids I ever took part in where those when I happened to be online and have time.

 

If I had ever thought raiding was fun, I might have done a few more, but honestly my experiences with raiding were mostly quite boring. After hitting 2 hours the same buttons and forseeing that I still had to hit those buttons another 2 hours or so, I really got impatient to go do something else. It looked quite similar to a boring job. Let alone the fact that for serious raiding I should do the same instance 20 times or more..Sure, I think they should cater raiders as well, but it's not high on my priority list when it comes to MMO's.

[Lazzer]

I think one of the reasons Rift has grown so much stronger is that there are PUG raids going on constantly. But that's community driven over there. Not seeing the same thing here, even on the higher pop server I'm currently playing on.

 

I totally agree, the thing that spoils this game for me is the instanced content, it restricts you to how many people you can bring and what levels they are.

[Bilirubin]

Why should raids be the best/fastest/most efficient path to advancement?

 

I'll tell you why. Because if it were not, interest in raids would drop off a cliff. But maybe that should tell us something.

 

As I said in the pre-launch forums, no one likes raiding. What they like is getting the best gear. If it weren't there, people wouldn't do it.

 

Nonsense. I love raiding, and doing HM flashpoints. It's the increase in the challenge, and the teamwork, all rolled into one. I want to gear up, yes, but that is so I can take the step up to the next level of content difficulty. What the leveling has been for me is a training ground to get me to this point (plus some decent stories).

 

Some of us like doing the content simply because its there to be done. That is all the motivation necessary.

[EnsignSorrow]

In a raid you, and several teammates work together to take down epic bosses, and get to experience some of the lore.

 

I don't know how someone could hate that. People who don't like to participate in group activities will find themselves at odds with playing a massive multi-player online role playing game such as this. Which is loosely based off of dungeon's and dragons, which is a group based game (raid) game.

 

There is no real point to this thread in that regard.

[DieAlteHexe]

In a raid you, and several teammates work together to take down epic bosses, and get to experience some of the lore.

 

I don't know how someone could hate that. People who don't like to participate in group activities will find themselves at odds with playing a massive multi-player online role playing game such as this. Which is loosely based off of dungeon's and dragons, which is a group based game (raid) game.

 

There is no real point to this thread in that regard.

 

It's not the raiding, it's the becoming traditional mentality. That of "there's one way and one way only and woe unto you if you're not equipped/spec'd/etc. 'that' way".

 

And let's not equate not like raiding with not liking to group. Different things there. Raiding is not the only way to group, be social etc.

[GnatB]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

 

More than 62%. What percentage of players even HAVE a lvl 50?

[amantheil]

I always see this negative attitude towards raiding and raiders and I wonder where it stems from. I raid with my friends. They don't treat me poorly or they wouldn't be my friends, and I wouldn't do anything with them, let alone raid. I think the problem isn't with raiding or raiders, it is with one's own ability to chose their friends wisely.

 

The negative attitude comes from a few places.

 

It can add drama and stress to a guild or group of friends. People get left out (if you have 10 people sign up for an 8-man Ops, 26 people sign up for a 25-man raid, etc.). There can be loot drama. You can have one of those nights where you wipe over and over and over, and if you've experienced that I can see why you wouldn't want to deal with it again.

 

Now if you're with a good group of friends, it can be ok. Some of my favorite memories have been with groups that have a good attitude, make jokes after a wipe and learn from the mistake. But if you feel like you're always the odd man out, if you feel like you're doing your part but others aren't, etc. it can get frustrating.

 

And there's probably a perception that every raid is like this:

http://youtu.be/HtvIYRrgZ04

[grania]

The negative attitude comes from a few places.

 

It can add drama and stress to a guild or group of friends. People get left out (if you have 10 people sign up for an 8-man Ops, 26 people sign up for a 25-man raid, etc.). There can be loot drama. You can have one of those nights where you wipe over and over and over, and if you've experienced that I can see why you wouldn't want to deal with it again.

 

Now if you're with a good group of friends, it can be ok. Some of my favorite memories have been with groups that have a good attitude, make jokes after a wipe and learn from the mistake. But if you feel like you're always the odd man out, if you feel like you're doing your part but others aren't, etc. it can get frustrating.

 

And there's probably a perception that every raid is like this:

http://youtu.be/HtvIYRrgZ04

 

 

Oh gosh, horrible horrible drama between friends. It was sad what happened between my husband and his real life friends, where half of them were very competent and the others.. *ahem*

[DieAlteHexe]

The negative attitude comes from a few places.

 

It can add drama and stress to a guild or group of friends. People get left out (if you have 10 people sign up for an 8-man Ops, 26 people sign up for a 25-man raid, etc.). There can be loot drama. You can have one of those nights where you wipe over and over and over, and if you've experienced that I can see why you wouldn't want to deal with it again.

 

Now if you're with a good group of friends, it can be ok. Some of my favorite memories have been with groups that have a good attitude, make jokes after a wipe and learn from the mistake. But if you feel like you're always the odd man out, if you feel like you're doing your part but others aren't, etc. it can get frustrating.

 

And there's probably a perception that every raid is like this:

http://youtu.be/HtvIYRrgZ04

 

I had lost the URL for that. Thank you! I about die laughing every time I see this.

[ferroz]

I might as well pipe up again..

 

I grew up in EQ1 before Kunark, and loved the raiding at that time.. Bring as many as you want to the fight (max was 72 I believe)..

If you played pre-kunark there wsn't a limit. They didn't add one until 3 expansions later and even then you could mostly get around that limit except for a couple of fights here and there until the expanision after that, where they dropped the raid cap to 36 for the raids in that content; later they raised it back to 54.

 

 

When I raided in EQ, NO ONE ever gave me crap about my druid's DPS numbers.. oh wait.. I did other jobs that could not be measured by a combat log...

Actually, pretty much everything a druid did in EQ was measurable via a combat log.

 

and if you weren't given crap about being useless as a druid, you were in the minority.

 

Rose colored glasses are nice and all, but back in the day that you're talking about:

• If you were a necro, your job was to twitch the clerics.
  
• If you were a mage, you were supposed to be making mod rods and dropping them on the ground so that the useful classes could dps/heal.
  
• If you were a ranger, you should hurry up and die so that you're not distracting the healers. They're not going to heal you, since it's less mana to just rez you after
  
• etc
  

Edited March 19, 2012 by ferroz

[Frostvein]

More than 62%. What percentage of players even HAVE a lvl 50?

 

I asked the same question. It isn't 38% of the playerbase, its 38% of all lvl 50s.

 

The real question is if they are doing it by account or IP or what.

[amantheil]

As I said in the pre-launch forums, no one likes raiding. What they like is getting the best gear. If it weren't there, people wouldn't do it.

 

That's not true at all. Many, including myself, enjoy raiding for the challenge, to see the content, and working with friends. I don't care at all about getting the best gear - other than it helps make it easier to go ahead and try the challenges. For many, you get gear in order to raid, you don't raid in order to get gear.

 

It's not the raiding, it's the becoming traditional mentality. That of "there's one way and one way only and woe unto you if you're not equipped/spec'd/etc. 'that' way".

 

And let's not equate not like raiding with not liking to group. Different things there. Raiding is not the only way to group, be social etc.

 

Well said. There are a lot of reasons people don't raid:

 

1) They just prefer other aspects of an MMO more (PvP, RP, leveling, collecting, exploring, etc.) I know people like that - some of them are good players and will join a raid if we need to fill slots, but it's not what really motivates them.

 

2) They may want to raid, but haven't found a group they feel comfortable with, or they feel intimidated, or they just don't have the time. Or any combination of the above. I've known people who were fairly serious raiders, and then when they got a new job or had children or whatever, they couldn't spend the time raiding but still found time for other aspects of the game.

 

3) It's a new game. Some people may prefer to only raid with friends (especially if they all migrated from another MMO) and they're waiting for their friends and guild-mates to reach level 50.

 

 

 

People play MMOs for a lot of reasons. A successful game will appeal to a lot of people and make as many people happy as possible. And as much as people here bash WoW I think that's been a huge component of their success, they've done an excellent job of providing content that appeals to a lot of different people.

[MightyHalo]

I haven't done a FP, a ops raid.

 

If it ain't PVP I could care less.

 

I did the epic raids in EQ, WOW, and I have no intention of going through that madness again.\

 

If I want to lose interest fast I will raid,

[TheSwamper]

Because raiders are likely to be willing (not happy perhaps, but certainly willing) to run the same content repeatedly to get an incremental increase in their gear.

So with the RNG approach and a complete set of gear for the raider to collect, they will in theory run a raid, get the first piece of gear, and then keep runnig that raid until the RNG has spit out the rest of the set as well. Meaning that the raider consumes the same content repeatedly 10, 20, 100+ times.

 

Quite correct. Now add to that content, a series of soloable instances that still have timer lockouts, still have the RNG and most importantly still have progressively harder content offering progressively better rewards and I'll sign up for a year.

 

Honestly, I am just DYING for one (ONE!) developer to offer this in a decent AAA MMO.

[harpuax]

Why should raids be the best/fastest/most efficient path to advancement?

 

I'll tell you why. Because if it were not, interest in raids would drop off a cliff. But maybe that should tell us something.

 

As I said in the pre-launch forums, no one likes raiding. What they like is getting the best gear. If it weren't there, people wouldn't do it.

 

No one likes raiding? Thank you for telling me what I do and don't like.

 

 

I do like Raiding. Gathering a group of friends and beating bosses with glowbats while laughing and joking on vent is allot of fun. I like the challenge of getting a boss lower and lower each attempt and then finality downing it, as cheers of joy erupt in voice chat. 90% of the fun I have had in MMOs over he past en years is in a raid. The loot is only there to gate progression and get you to the next tier of challenges.

[GnatB]

Oh, and fwiw, problem with raids isn't the group content, (though i'm not a big fan of that). Problem is its the ultimate in treadmills. (at least until somebody comes up with a better treadmill)

 

Run the same raid over and over until your guild (or regular group, or whatever) is geared enough to do the same thing on the next raid. Since it takes a lot of people to run, and the number of drops is limited, you guarantee they are going to have to run it a LOT to get geared up). Yay treadmill!

 

When each raid is very very little actual content. IMO, raids are for suckers. Now sure, I realize it's a boon to the developers. Somehow people are foolish enough to run these low effort (on the developers part) treadmills they set up, and keep paying them their subscription moneys.

 

Me? I try to avoid doing treadmills. I'll move on to new/different things.

 

Now, if you ran a raid once, and everybody involved got whatever drop(s) that raid offers and never needs to do it again? Sure. Then they may be worthwhile. But since (currently) the whole point of them is to be treadmills, I don't see that happening any time soon.

[amantheil]

 

Now sure, I realize it's a boon to the developers. Somehow people are foolish enough to run these low effort (on the developers part) treadmills they set up, and keep paying them their subscription moneys.

 

I understand your point...but if you think a good raid takes little development effort then you don't know what you're talking about. A good raid takes a lot of effort. Art teams need to design the setting, the mobs, the bosses, any NPCs, etc. Story teams need to make a compelling story that attracts you. Encounter designers need to come up with new challenges that don't just recycle the same fight mechanics. Designers also need to design the gear that drops and make sure it looks good on characters.

 

I'm not saying every raid is successful in that regards. Plenty of raids in plenty of games failed at some of these components. But when everything comes together it can be fantastic - and it takes a lot of developer and testing effort to get there.

[thominoh]

If you played pre-kunark there wsn't a limit. They didn't add one until 3 expansions later and even then you could mostly get around that limit except for a couple of fights here and there until the expanision after that, where they dropped the raid cap to 36 for the raids in that content; later they raised it back to 54.

 

 

Actually, pretty much everything a druid did in EQ was measurable via a combat log.

 

and if you weren't given crap about being useless as a druid, you were in the minority.

 

Rose colored glasses are nice and all, but back in the day that you're talking about:

• If you were a necro, your job was to twitch the clerics.
  
• If you were a mage, you were supposed to be making mod rods and dropping them on the ground so that the useful classes could dps/heal.
  
• If you were a ranger, you should hurry up and die so that you're not distracting the healers. They're not going to heal you, since it's less mana to just rez you after
  
• etc
  

 

I"m not sure about that.. I didn't start raiding til SoV and that was the 2nd expansion and that DID have a max raid size.. I thought I read about 72, but as I said, "I think" .. and why? Because our guild NEVER reached a point to max.. Our normal raid night was about 30-40 people on average.. sometimes more..

 

As for the other roles.. you proved my point as most refer to combat logs as DPS, threat meters and such.. Which had NO effect on most classes in EQ.. You are correct about necro and mages, so how do you measure their worthiness in a raid? Think about it.. As for Rangers.. That must of been a guild policy.. OUR rangers in my guild did not die.. unless it was a wipe.. How do you measure Bards? How did you measure my role as healer for group 6.. An SK's dps is much less then a rogues..

 

The point I'm making is that a log doesn't tell you everything...... Which combat log shows the lack of Mana siphon before the dragon gates back, then comes back with FRIENDS..... WIPE....

[harpuax]

Oh, and fwiw, problem with raids isn't the group content, (though i'm not a big fan of that). Problem is its the ultimate in treadmills. (at least until somebody comes up with a better treadmill)

 

Run the same raid over and over until your guild (or regular group, or whatever) is geared enough to do the same thing on the next raid. Since it takes a lot of people to run, and the number of drops is limited, you guarantee they are going to have to run it a LOT to get geared up). Yay treadmill!

 

When each raid is very very little actual content. IMO, raids are for suckers. Now sure, I realize it's a boon to the developers. Somehow people are foolish enough to run these low effort (on the developers part) treadmills they set up, and keep paying them their subscription moneys.

 

Me? I try to avoid doing treadmills. I'll move on to new/different things.

 

Now, if you ran a raid once, and everybody involved got whatever drop(s) that raid offers and never needs to do it again? Sure. Then they may be worthwhile. But since (currently) the whole point of them is to be treadmills, I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

Yes but you need a treadmill somewhere, developers can't create endless content.

[DarthWoad]

Maybe these 38% of level 50s happened to have done one, the other 62% havent got round to doing one yet, doesnt mean they hate it

[GnatB]

Yes but you need a treadmill somewhere, developers can't create endless content.

 

Or, they can accept the fact that people will move on to other things, and then come back when the expansion drops. That's (presumably) what the 62% does. (certainly what *I* do)

 

As for treadmills, the 8 different storylines, that use a *lot* of the same assets/locations, is a *far* more palateable treadmill (even to me). And I find it unlikely all that many people have gotten through it yet. I know I've only finished (just Saturday) my first storyline.

 

(and even raids aren't endless content. You will eventually do 'em all and have the drops from them)

 

And for "low effort" on the raids, I mean low effort vs. results.

[StormRiders]

The only time I've truly enjoyed raiding in MMOs it was the days of DAoC. The dragon raid was epic, it took the whole server (at least your faction & there are 3 factions per server) to complete it. Even other raids were fun including Darkness Fall which again it takes a whole server to do it but you know why I said it was fun?

 

Unlike WoW or many MMOs nowadays. It was a server wide event started by players. You do NOT need to wait for others to make a raid group & end up not being able to raid because so & so did not show up & so & so that are available were not the right class/spec. to do it!

 

All it took was a set time & date & whomever showed up & we all just went & on top of that we had to go through dangerous areas to reach the raid & it was none of this instant travel boring stuff. Just going there was half of the excitement & adventure itself.

 

PLUS, pretty much everyone that went got some decent rewards. It wasn't like the current raids in MMOs nowadays where it requires you to raid over & over the same boring stuff & get almost nothing out of it. Now that's what I call content instead of this grind feast we see in more recent memory MMOs.

 

So which that said I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of people would rather not raid. Simply for many of us it's either we are burned out from it & say f**k this garbage & would rather do other stuffs in game instead IF there are other interesting & worthwhile things to do instead of grinding at max level.

 

By the way I've always been a PvPer first & PvEer second & I still find the raiding was much more fun in DAoC than the rest of more recent MMOs.

 

With that said & so much bugs (left unfixed for months) & non-MMOish feeling of this game, I'm only playing it to pass time until GW2 comes out. Sorry, BioFail you did not earn your title as a true MMO.

Edited March 19, 2012 by StormRiders

[ConradLionhart]

Not everyone raids, yes that's true. But that doesn't mean they should not put in operations at all.

 

I think the Legacy system is the casual player's dream. You will have plenty to do.

[ferroz]

And you are assuming also. It is a fact..the majority of players in any MMO are not raiders.

Source?

 

keep in mind that to back up this claim, you have to present more than just a single figure for a single mmo.

 

And his % he shows only shows those facts to be true.

No, it actually doesn't.