People don't give Georg the credit he deserves

[fungihoujo]

All current pvp specs for sorcs rely on CL- it's been removed- nothing has been put into place to make full specs good.

 

That's fail combat design, and that is breaking specs.

[Migrayn]

I hardly think a few extra stats from augments is going to offset the loss to every damage skill an operative gets on top of longer a longer cooldown on a main attack.

 

If anything he has shown a complete lack of understanding in how an operative plays and how easy it is to negate one. One knockback in PvP puts the operative into chase mode with petty damage and usually results in operative death.

 

Lowering sustained damage was the last thing operatives needed. After already taking huge nerfs in the past this is the most nerfed class and least played class in the game.

 

With rated warzones coming, their is no reason to take an operative in the team. Every other class has something useful for warzones. Operatives have nothing useful for a warzone.

 

If he had any insight at all he could of offset all the damage nerfs with some kind of utility that would give teams a reason to bring an operative along for rated warzones.

 

He is just showing why this is BW's first big MMO and most likely their last.

[Frisemort]

Georg can have all my credits, but he will no longer have my dollars, subscription canceled.

[Aaoogaa]

Georg may get credit for being the mind behind the rapid decline of TOR over the next few weeks.

[Sowwy]

You know what, people are jumping the gun.

 

But that does not mean there are not some very credible question to be asked.

 

Here are some examples.

 

How did tank assassin/shadows escape the attention of the devs? That's just weird to anyone that pvps a lot.

 

Why was powertech pyro relatively unchanged despite having ridiculous burst. My main is a war hero powetech (rank 70 was achieved 2 weeks before the valor patch, to show just how much time Ive spent in the wz) and I was anticipating a nerf, because it completely deserves one. But instead, the class received what could be seen as a small buff.

 

Guardian/jug tanking is still lacking aoe.

 

Vigilance's performance is mediocre at best. And terrible compared to focus.

 

The choice to convert force leaps root to a stun (for gaurds/jugs), which responds to resolve, is just confounding - it will have a negative impact on the class as whole in pvp.

 

These are a few of the concerns of the community. Even though most people totally fail to articulate themselves well, it should not invalidate their opinion. Despite what that pompous post made by that dev says.

 

So yes, thank you Georg for getting close. But permit me to ask why the above obvious issues remain untouched.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Sowwy

[hellczar]

Unless they do what they did separating 10-49 from 50s with gear....it will make a HUGE difference. What about new lvl 50s coming into pvp? Should we just forget about them?

 

It takes like 3 to 4 days max to get them in PvP gear have them take the lumps like everybody else. the problem was people entered the 50's bracket looking for easy to get gear centurion/champion with greens and quested gear and expected to be competetive and whined when they weren't. Even if you spent some money/resources on lvl 50 purple gear/mod you could still get along well enough in most cases.

 

At level 50 fresh they could have started with 90 centurion and 42 champion commendations and chances for a champion piece of gear just from bags. Apparently that wasn't good enough . the people who had bad gear will probably still have bad gear when they can buy it because it'll probably be "too expensive" since they had to buy all their lvl 50 skills and speeder skills....

 

Face it BW is catering to the LCD because they want 3 million subs by July and doing whatever it takes to get casual no effort type players.

[Xerain]

GZ is probably one of the best devs i've seen for an MMO... he gets mad respect.

[hargrave]

heres me giving gabe the credit he deserves for lying his but off about ilum.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363033

 

Hey george thank you for giving us a customizable u.i 3 months into live that comes standard in every other mmo.Even though 6 months ago in beta we asked for that then...

 

Thank you for ignoring ilum and open world pvp

 

Thank you for wasting development time on this legacy fluffball.

 

Thank you for ruining the game with pureblood sith jedis and worse.

 

Thanks for hiring a rift artist to create fantasy armor sets for a sci fi game

 

Thank you for making it easier to justify cancelling

 

Thank you george for makinf me wait for 4 years for rift 2

 

Oh p.s thanks for james ohlen saying we have the best pvp team and not apoligizing for that lie

[Xerain]

heres me giving gabe the credit he deserves for lying his but off about ilum.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363033

 

Hey george thank you for giving us a customizable u.i 3 months into live that comes standard in every other mmo.Even though 6 months ago in beta we asked for that then...

 

Thank you for ignoring ilum and open world pvp

 

Thank you for wasting development time on this legacy fluffball.

 

Thank you for ruining the game with pureblood sith jedis and worse.

 

Thanks for hiring a rift artist to create fantasy armor sets for a sci fi game

 

Thank you for making it easier to justify cancelling

 

Thank you george for makinf me wait for 4 years for rift 2

 

Oh p.s thanks for james ohlen saying we have the best pvp team and not apoligizing for that lie

 

The QQ is strong with this one.

 

This is just the start of the game, you have to realize that. You expect a polished pristine game right on release...

[hargrave]

no i dont i was in beta 6 months ago.

 

I didnt ask gabe to get on stage and present ilum as 100vs100

 

I didnt ask james ohlen to say we have the best pvp team

 

This is what im presented with.

 

What i do expect is standard things that every other mmo has at launch a custom ui tab targeting that works. A raid assist window im surprised we have chat to be honest lol

 

 

The QQ is strong with this one.

 

This is just the start of the game, you have to realize that. You expect a polished pristine game right on release...

[HoosierDuke]

If things were so greatly balanced, why the changes .... because of upcoming gear changes?

 

Here we go again, huh ... game in development for OVER SEVERAL years, and ONLY 3 months in they need to redesign classes because of gear changes? If that is the case, the future is scary.

[Beachcomberb]

no i dont i was in beta 6 months ago.

 

I didnt ask gabe to get on stage and present ilum as 100vs100

 

I didnt ask james ohlen to say we have the best pvp team

 

This is what im presented with.

 

What i do expect is standard things that every other mmo has at launch a custom ui tab targeting that works. A raid assist window im surprised we have chat to be honest lol

 

You make some very valid points that some people with head in the sand syndrome dont want to face.

[hargrave]

people were qq'ng about cons/inq's 6 months ago in beta. As far as im concerned this game still isnt live this is just a new beta build.

 

Ive tried to be positive and ive given endless feedback most the people i played with have left already. Gabe is lying and presenting false information about ilum then not even back tracking or apoligizing about the lie.

 

All the focus is going to warzones. People are already burnt out of them. Then we have same faction pvp 50% of the time due to lack of adressing the real issuse of faction imbalance.

 

We have george and them selling a custom ui like its the legacy system in itself. A custom ui isnt an update or "feature" its a standard in all mmos

 

James ohlen knows more about whats coming more then he knows whats going on now. He just now realizes we have a high amount of lvl 50's that arent doing end game content and just now they figured out they need a lfg tool/lfg finder? People have been asking for this for a long time and gabes on video saying we dont need it were going to go old school for lfg

 

I could go on but im already tired and burnt out.

Edited March 18, 2012 by hargrave

[KhealThar]

I think this game is extremely balanced and the fact that gear is easily obtained allows everyone to play on an even playing field. The same cannot be said for wow, classes are completely unbalanced and on top of that you need to be a ranked arena player to have the gear necessary to compete in even unranked bgs.

 

WoW is extremely balanced. Just like SWTOR, people just think it isn't because they're not good at pvp so they blame class balance for their loss.

 

Gear is incredibly easy to get in WoW now as well, you can basically never step foot in arena and get full cataclysmic gear which is the current arena season just from random BGs because they let you cap your conquest points from randoms now.

 

Also to compete in unranked BGs, you basically only need honor gear because 90% of people in those BGs are wearing honor gear or lower.

[Gunlaugr]

This may seem alarming, but as a battlemaster sentinel (watchman) i've been pwning people all day long, for a long time. The fact that the other two trees were buffed to give us a choice on playstyle is just a nice addition.

 

However, i will say that when i face people who know my abilities and how to effectivly counter them (as many snipers do) the facade wears off and all can see how fickle our glass cannon really is.

 

Sentinel, glass cannon?

 

Do you know what it's like to try to kill your glass cannon with stealth-escape and 5 sec (only 1 min cd) of immortality with no penalties?

 

I've spent a lot of time doing pvp on various levels across several games. I know a gamebreaker when I see it. Sentinels survivability and the burst potential of vanguard/powertech assault spec atm outshines anything out there atm. Georg is not keeping up with the necessities.

[Ahebish]

As lead combat designer, Georg Zoeller has overseen and approved each and every change made to combat in the 1.2 patch, and all paches leading up to it. Whether you'd like to admit it or not, this game has been impeccibly balanced when it comes to combat (i know there have been gripes about mirrors having issues, but they will eventually be resolved). The point being, no class completely obliterates any other class when both players have equal knowledge about their own class, and how to counter abilities other classes are bringing to the table.

 

What have we seen in the 1.2 patch notes regarding classes themselves?

 

Dramatic changes to healing

Certain specs getting damage reductions, while others gain more

Reoptimization to skill trees to entice players to pick and fulfill a single role

 

Now look at the big picture - what is happening to the rest of the game?

 

All item slots have an augment potential (can result in 28x14 more to your base stat overall)

Recalculations on stats themselves including the diminishing returns on expertice (further raising damage and healing done to other players)

New tiers of gear bringing much higher stats than were previously attainable even by the best optimizations

 

 

Now stop and think, if all of these new things were added on top of the current PvP system, people would be hitting and healing for unbelievably high damage - teams that didnt stack 4 healers would be useless as fights would be very very short and lopsided.

 

The classes needed adjustments to incorporate this dramatic increase in potential gear. Your class will not be ruined. Post 1.2 after you gear up you should be seeing the same, if not (probably) more damage/healing on your part, regardless if your class got nerfed.

 

Give Georg the credit he is due, he hasn't fallen short of maintaining balance in combat before, and balance will continue to be maintaned (even moreso) post-1.2

 

Now stop the QQing and start thinking about how you can optimize your spec given the plethora of changes upcoming in the next few weeks.

 

You know, how does one quell a tornado?

 

You don't. There's a reason it's called the finger of god.

 

Quit making excuses for the nerf's 1/2 of your reasons do not even effect the purpose of the nerf's especially all the "great fluff" that's been added to 1.2.

 

When you can explain to me how I can get my damage back after 5 nerf's I'll concede the "fluff" you are trying to use to shield the ultimate issue with 1.2.

 

Blizzard did this...

 

Nerf one class boost another every 1-2 months. Why? To keep people playing. And it never solved the PVP balance issues. It created FOTM classes.

 

Sentinel, Marauders, Jugs, and Guardians

 

And right now this game is headed in that direction.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ahebish

[hugebaddie]

The point being, no class completely obliterates any other class when both players have equal knowledge about their own class, and how to counter abilities other classes are bringing to the table.

 

Arsenal mercs are horribad 1v1. Have you ever tried it? No interupt, yet relies heavily on channels.

[Ozzone]

Should we thank Georg for nerfing Operatives to the point of obsolescence?

[Niconogood]

As lead combat designer, Georg Zoeller has overseen and approved each and every change made to combat in the 1.2 patch, and all paches leading up to it. Whether you'd like to admit it or not, this game has been impeccibly balanced when it comes to combat (i know there have been gripes about mirrors having issues, but they will eventually be resolved). The point being, no class completely obliterates any other class when both players have equal knowledge about their own class, and how to counter abilities other classes are bringing to the table.

 

What have we seen in the 1.2 patch notes regarding classes themselves?

 

Dramatic changes to healing

Certain specs getting damage reductions, while others gain more

Reoptimization to skill trees to entice players to pick and fulfill a single role

 

Now look at the big picture - what is happening to the rest of the game?

 

All item slots have an augment potential (can result in 28x14 more to your base stat overall)

Recalculations on stats themselves including the diminishing returns on expertice (further raising damage and healing done to other players)

New tiers of gear bringing much higher stats than were previously attainable even by the best optimizations

 

 

Now stop and think, if all of these new things were added on top of the current PvP system, people would be hitting and healing for unbelievably high damage - teams that didnt stack 4 healers would be useless as fights would be very very short and lopsided.

 

The classes needed adjustments to incorporate this dramatic increase in potential gear. Your class will not be ruined. Post 1.2 after you gear up you should be seeing the same, if not (probably) more damage/healing on your part, regardless if your class got nerfed.

 

Give Georg the credit he is due, he hasn't fallen short of maintaining balance in combat before, and balance will continue to be maintaned (even moreso) post-1.2

 

Now stop the QQing and start thinking about how you can optimize your spec given the plethora of changes upcoming in the next few weeks.

 

Playing the already most OP class in the game, and actually receiving a BUFF with this patch.. Of course you are happy.

 

Have a fun time in future warzones though, cause its gonna consist of nothing but people dual wielding glowsticks.

 

I for sure have read the notes and as I feared am forced to give up this game. I simply see no hope for it with the glaring incompetence of the current designerteam.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Niconogood

[ztee]

This may seem alarming, but as a battlemaster sentinel (watchman) i've been pwning people all day long, for a long time. The fact that the other two trees were buffed to give us a choice on playstyle is just a nice addition.

 

However, i will say that when i face people who know my abilities and how to effectivly counter them (as many snipers do) the facade wears off and all can see how fickle our glass cannon really is.

 

Im with you dude, i avoid them like the plague .... if i see one, i move along like nothing ever occured - sins can be a pain also ....

 

One query i have to the OP though - you stated that people will be wearing crit augmented craftables, are we all going to be wearing crafted gear or something? In all seriousness, i dont mind a few oranges being BiS (like belt and bracers atm), but crafting a full set of "ugly orange" gear sounds terrible.

 

gee i hope not ...

[Harower]

people were qq'ng about cons/inq's 6 months ago in beta. As far as im concerned this game still isnt live this is just a new beta build.

 

Ive tried to be positive and ive given endless feedback most the people i played with have left already. Gabe is lying and presenting false information about ilum then not even back tracking or apoligizing about the lie.

 

All the focus is going to warzones. People are already burnt out of them. Then we have same faction pvp 50% of the time due to lack of adressing the real issuse of faction imbalance.

 

We have george and them selling a custom ui like its the legacy system in itself. A custom ui isnt an update or "feature" its a standard in all mmos

 

James ohlen knows more about whats coming more then he knows whats going on now. He just now realizes we have a high amount of lvl 50's that arent doing end game content and just now they figured out they need a lfg tool/lfg finder? People have been asking for this for a long time and gabes on video saying we dont need it were going to go old school for lfg

 

I could go on but im already tired and burnt out.

 

 

It is pretty obvious why. This game uses a standard marketing strategy pushed to the extreme. This game could be totally dead and they would still review it, market it and talk it up as if it was the messiah of games.

 

They know this game isn't going to make it. So they sell it sell it sell it sell it. They are constantly talking this game up and not much of it matches what the gamer experiences.

 

They will take us and others for all they can before majority catch on.

 

Have you see the developers video's? Even today they sound like they have re-defined the very concept of computer gaming.

 

Even on the penny-arcade review they somehow managed to get them too do a marketing stunt instead of a proper review.

 

The marketing, the PR, the hype, the constant emails, the review blogs, the forum inquisition. They are amazing! constant and relentless. If people don't stop and actually look what is in front of them they will get swept along with it.

 

They put huge amounts of money and time into it. This game won't last long but it sure has been one successful hit and run.

[Shredbull]

It is pretty obvious why. This game uses a standard marketing strategy pushed to the extreme. This game could be totally dead and they would still review it, market it and talk it up as if it was the messiah of games.

 

They know this game isn't going to make it. So they sell it sell it sell it sell it. They are constantly talking this game up and not much of it matches what the gamer experiences.

 

They will take us and others for all they can before majority catch on.

 

Have you see the developers video's? Even today they sound like they have re-defined the very concept of computer gaming.

 

Even on the penny-arcade review they somehow managed to get them too do a marketing stunt instead of a proper review.

 

The marketing, the PR, the hype, the constant emails, the review blogs, the forum inquisition. They are amazing! constant and relentless. If people don't stop and actually look what is in front of them they will get swept along with it.

 

They put huge amounts of money and time into it. This game won't last long but it sure has been one successful hit and run.

 

Sir you just described my feeling when I read the 1.2 patch notes.

[CaptainInsano]

GZ is probably one of the best devs i've seen for an MMO... he gets mad respect.

 

A Sentinel/Marauder thinks Georg is doing a great job! Cmon at least try to make it less obvious.

[phistonation]

It is debatable why Georg Zoeller is a principal lead, a person who has only single player games to his credit. Even so, with over a decade of MMO’s, so much research is available on what worked, what did not and yet he and EA/BioWare continue trying to reinvent the MMO wheel.

 

The opinion of “impeccable balance” is a fallacy. Any time a skill needs an adjustment (ie buff/nerf) or warrants removal—its intended design has failed. It failed because the Georg and the designers did not understand how it may be used/not used/abused by the player base.

 

SWTOR is no longer in beta and 3-months from going LIVE, version 1.2 proposes major skill overhauls and re-specialization refunds. Why is this happening? Was the beta a failure? Has nothing been learned from the shortcoming and successes of its ancestors: Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asheron’s Call, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, Rift and everything in between?

 

Where is the innovation that has been touted? Could it be said that SWTOR has regressed in that features and innovations found in predecessors that modern players come to expect are non-existent or maybe coming soon?

 

The most credulous opinion of “wait and see” is somehow Patch 1.2 will save SWTOR. Listen how ridiculous that sounds…a game needs to be saved from itself only 3-months out the door. Not a year or two down the road or from a competitor but saved from its own soon demise.

 

However, by all means, please continue being Baghdad Bob’s on the forums, inflating the designer’s egos with more hot air. You should be more concerned that this $200-million dollar sandbox that has been created for the player base will get lonely real quick. People will realize sooner than later, that EA\BioWare has been pissing on the player’s legs and telling them that it’s raining.

 

So what's the fix? They’re might be two foreseeable outcomes:

 

Georg Zoeller and the live team is replaced by a group is who more competent and experienced so that SWTOR can be successful against upcoming competition and most importantly with the fans.

 

Or

 

EA Games Label President Frank Gibeau will acknowledge the fans' disappointment in SWTOR much like he did with Dragon Age 2.

[fungihoujo]

WoW is extremely balanced. Just like SWTOR, people just think it isn't because they're not good at pvp so they blame class balance for their loss.

 

Gear is incredibly easy to get in WoW now as well, you can basically never step foot in arena and get full cataclysmic gear which is the current arena season just from random BGs because they let you cap your conquest points from randoms now.

 

Also to compete in unranked BGs, you basically only need honor gear because 90% of people in those BGs are wearing honor gear or lower.

 

WoW is balanced? Is that why in the top 15 class comps for both 2v2 and 3v3, a total of 75 classes- there is ZERO hunters? Is that why 15% of those above 2200 in 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 and rated BG are warriors, druids, pallies respectively, while hunters have been under 2% for over two years?

 

Is that why hunters are the only class to have only one CC break... and that CC break is the only CC break that you can prevent a hunter from using by using the CC it is intended to break to CC them? (the CC break removes roots, yet, if your pet and you are LoSed from each other in, say, pillar heavy arenas- you can't use it... it's easy to LoS by using roots).

 

 

The only people who think the game is moving towards balance are those who see a big number at the end of a WZ and assume that means that player is doing well.