Why 1.2 Changes Shouldn't Go Through

[LiquidKarbide]

Guess you missed that Protector/Huddle is gone?

Your survivability and utility boost is a tad less than you think.

 

So my survivability after i Intervene is a littlebit less. 20% isn't even as good as a taunt and taunts i don't ever notice to help THAT much. You still get 8% hp (which after the 4%endurance buff from the talent it is a little less) and you still either get an offense gap closer or a defensive getaway. Yes it sucks, yes it looks like this has some nerfs to the vengeance tree. BUT instead of having a minor defensive buff after intervene, you now get an entirely defensive skill. Also, this probably means the skillcap on the character goes down and take that as you want.

Edited March 23, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[WrykilX]

Guardian/Jugg

 

The 2 second stun needs to go from Force Leap/Charge.

Command/Thrown Gauntlet needs to be put back in the 4th tier and remain untouched.

Protector/Huddle needs to be returned.

 

All three of these changes are bigger nerfs for our role as team protector in PVP more than anything else is a buff.

Edited March 23, 2012 by WrykilX

[LiquidKarbide]

Guardian/Jugg

 

The 2 second stun needs to go from Force Leap/Charge.

Command/Thrown Gauntlet needs to be put back in the 4th tier and remain untouched.

Protector/Huddle needs to be returned.

 

All three of these changes are bigger nerfs for our role as team protector in PVP more than anything else is a buff.

 

Exactly. The stun isn't needed and probably will only hurt except for in some super rare cases. I don't know anything about Immortal, but huddle definitely isn't a problem at all and is very needed. But with the new D skill it shouldnt be too problematic

[Vodrin]

Exactly. The stun isn't needed and probably will only hurt except for in some super rare cases. I don't know anything about Immortal, but huddle definitely isn't a problem at all and is very needed. But with the new D skill it shouldnt be too problematic

 

I'm really concerned about enraged defense being used to replace some of the defensive talents that are going away. 14 rage over ten seconds (the cost if continuously taking damage) is rather steep. I think it may be too steep to consider using this talent as a rage jugg. Vengeance has more rage generation and may be able to stomach this, but this could well end up being an ability nobody uses.

[LiquidKarbide]

Well with that you can just use your white rage regen moves. might cut damage but that's better than dying. Just like you go D stance for the extra defense but lose offense. Its just this is a little less damage and way more defense. Also, you have Enrage. This might not be the best use of it but if you have it up, pop it. the CD is short so if you survive then youre good and if you die, by the time you get back in the fight youll have it back. Edited March 24, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[Noth]

Well with that you can just use your white rage regen moves. might cut damage but that's better than dying. Just like you go D stance for the extra defense but lose offense. Its just this is a little less damage and way more defense. Also, you have Enrage. This might not be the best use of it but if you have it up, pop it. the CD is short so if you survive then youre good and if you die, by the time you get back in the fight youll have it back.

 

No other cooldown has such a steep cost (More than our entire resource pool and taking damage). It's a cooldown not a stance. it is way too expensive for what it does. Also adds yet another keybind. it would be better if they cut the ongoing cost out and just made the first tick cost 2 rage, then combine it with endure pain.

[LiquidKarbide]

No other cooldown has such a steep cost (More than our entire resource pool and taking damage).... Also adds yet another keybind. it would be better if they cut the ongoing cost out and just made the first tick cost 2 rage, then combine it with endure pain.

 

Well one, the marauders version costs 1/2 their current health. Which isn't that big of a deal sometimes but it's still there. Isn't it a passive though, so it's always there for you which is just amazing. If you really hate it that much, just pop it when you have a lot of rage and are taking dot dmg. You'll get the health back and not really need to worry about trying to kill anybody. Another keybind sucks, especially if i go immortal because i have CTRL 1-5 bound already as my Defense moves but not that big of a deal. Also, i like the fact its another skill because if you get another chance at staying alive. if you just need that 5k hp or so, endure pain can help without the cost of a really good CD.

Edited March 24, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[Vember]

Well one, the marauders version costs 1/2 their current health.

 

You have to take it into context. It takes half of their current health, which means popping it at 10-15% isn't really hurting you at all, considering you're going to last longer by using it than you would if you didn't. It also in no way impedes your ability to keep pumping out damage. Enraged Defense, on the other hand, could cost you a fight simply because you have to stop doing meaningful damage to get the healing, and that healing isn't going to offset incoming 2.5-4k damage crits.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind Juggs getting a self heal, but not one that's going to completely demolish our resource pool and shut down our outgoing damage at the same time.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Vember

[LiquidKarbide]

I agree with you on that. It really isn't going to be a garuanteed kill like the marauders have, but its better than nothing. Since it's a turn on/off ability you can just pop it as a rage dump. If you have a high amount of rage you can use it and you'll get some health back. Then you're not relying so much on it keeping you alive, just a good little addition of health at no cost.

 

Edit: This isn't the passive ability that i thought it was. maybe not so great as i figured, but if you don't use it as an end all then itll still be pretty nice.

Edited March 24, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[Elyx]

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind Juggs getting a self heal, but not one that's going to completely demolish our resource pool and shut down our outgoing damage at the same time.

 

I think that's my biggest gripe about it too. The cost overall just seems to steep. give me another CD, or give me a basic ability that costs X rage, and then ticks over time. I can deal with that. but it just seems far to gimmicky for my taste. If I'm taking a hit on my resources, then I don't want a % of whatever damage i take back...I want a real HoT. i want something i can hit and let it do its work.

 

If we accidentally pull aggro in a fight, then this ability is lost the second the tank pulls it back. If were playing solo, then hitting it at the end of a fight (when you may have excess rage to burn) is wasted. you actually have to hit it when you are in the situation, and NEEDING the resources to do damage. when you actually have excess resources, its not useable.

 

I think they're trying to force us to make a choice with our resources. But overall I don't see this as a valid comparative. It's almost like they want to give us a damage reduction, but they don't want it to look like one. Cmon guys..were Ok with "just another" DR ability. this new thing seems very weird and complicated.

[LiquidKarbide]

Well then there you go. Pop it at the start of a fight1 You'll probably have Enrage up and a lot of rage that needs dumping anyways. You'll take a ton of damage and get a ton of rage, make sure you use SA every time its up and you'll be fine with some xtra benificial health. Pop it when you expect a stun, you'll get plenty of rage to spend that way. Also, if you use it after a fight, low on health, high on rage, and have dots then you can use it so youre not killed. Edited March 26, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[Goretzu]

Well then there you go. Pop it at the start of a fight1 You'll probably have Enrage up and a lot of rage that needs dumping anyways. You'll take a ton of damage and get a ton of rage, make sure you use SA every time its up and you'll be fine with some xtra benificial health. Pop it when you expect a stun, you'll get plenty of rage to spend that way. Also, if you use it after a fight, low on health, high on rage, and have dots then you can use it so youre not killed.

 

 

 

Juggs lack and need "oh ****" survivability not really marginally more mitigation per fight.

 

This is one of the big things Marauder have over DPS Juggs.

[Schwarzwald]

2/7/32 all day long

 

http://i.imgur.com/H258X.jpg

 

if anything this spec needs a nerf

Edited March 27, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Goretzu]

2/7/32 all day long

 

http://i.imgur.com/H258X.jpg

 

if anything this spec needs a nerf

 

 

 

Well done you rolled a PuG with excellent healers.

 

Is this the 5th thread you've posted that screenshot in now? You must be oh so very proud of it.

 

 

 

Again with the amount of healing you had I dunno how you couldn't have got huge amounts of damage.

 

So is rage spec better than your DPS tank spec then?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Goretzu

[Darth_Sookie]

2/7/32 all day long

 

http://i.imgur.com/H258X.jpg

 

if anything this spec needs a nerf

 

2 Immortal? U must be trollin'

[Dracosz]

2 Immortal? U must be trollin'

 

2 points in immortal is an interesting variant on rage that skips on battle cry and goes for enraged sunder. It de-emphasizes scream, but allows you to weave in more vicious slashes which *can* be decent. Luciela, if I recall, went about this line of thinking and it worked pretty decently for him.

[Locustone]

Yes we are , since we are supposed to be viable as dps.

 

I also have complaints about the fact that mara´s gotbetter defensive cd´s than a "Tank-class"

 

But hey ... I always got my 41 Mara alt.

 

Marauders have way better PvE/PvP utility now and they will be even better in 1.2... Juggs want DPS viability as the developers have stated. In a perfect world a pure dps class would have higher damage and less survivability than a non-pure dps class. As it stands, mauraders have way better survivability than juggs and much better single target damage. Why it is so difficult for BW to see this is beyond me other than they are choosing to ignore the player community. Either buff jugg survability in PvP and add more raid wide utility in PvE or nerf that of maruaders. Otherwise, beef jugg damage to compensate for the lack of surviability, because armor in this game means jack.

[Sogar]

I like how the opening post is so full of crapp and false information. As far as sustain damage output is concerned rage is undoubtly nerf (there are a lot of other buffs though but that mainly concerns PvP).

 

As of marauders, people needs to face the truth :

- The only bonus rage guardians have comparing to a marauder is the 6% strength boost after 1.2 and that's it.

 

Aside from that strength bonus, our filler points are probably worse than the marauders and they still have way better survivability through their defensive cooldowns (and a second lightsaber which adds to their damage output on non force attacks).

 

IMO, the only reasons you might want a rage jugg instead of a marauder in PvP (since it is useless for PvE now) are the taunts, which are great but that still makes me sad. Now, you can also use other specs with the rage tree that are good but juggs won't be feared for their DPS anymore.

[Elyx]

I like how the opening post is so full of crapp and false information. As far as sustain damage output is concerned rage is undoubtly nerf (there are a lot of other buffs though but that mainly concerns PvP).

 

As of marauders, people needs to face the truth :

- The only bonus rage guardians have comparing to a marauder is the 6% strength boost after 1.2 and that's it.

 

Aside from that strength bonus, our filler points are probably worse than the marauders and they still have way better survivability through their defensive cooldowns (and a second lightsaber which adds to their damage output on non force attacks).

 

IMO, the only reasons you might want a rage jugg instead of a marauder in PvP (since it is useless for PvE now) are the taunts, which are great but that still makes me sad. Now, you can also use other specs with the rage tree that are good but juggs won't be feared for their DPS anymore.

 

Who is useless in PvE? your calling the Op out on false information and you post an ignorant rant like Juggs Are useless in PvE? no offense friend, but that really smacks of the pot calling the kettle black...

 

If anything PvE Juggs got a mild boost. Not what we really wanted, but it's a boost all the same. the biggest hit is the redistribution of talents that make PvP harder. Add in the mandatory crash for extra resolve, and PvP took a dive, not PvE.

 

Perhaps you should really go back and read the patch notes....

[Sogar]

Who is useless in PvE? your calling the Op out on false information and you post an ignorant rant like Juggs Are useless in PvE? no offense friend, but that really smacks of the pot calling the kettle black...

 

If anything PvE Juggs got a mild boost. Not what we really wanted, but it's a boost all the same. the biggest hit is the redistribution of talents that make PvP harder. Add in the mandatory crash for extra resolve, and PvP took a dive, not PvE.

 

Perhaps you should really go back and read the patch notes....

 

I called rage jugg useless for PvE not DPS jugg ... vengeance is a great spec. So no, it's not an ignorant rant. If you still believe that rage will be great for PvE, well that's another story.

[LiquidKarbide]

Were gonna be far from useless next patch. If you guys wanted straight faceroll damage and survivability then you should of picked a marauder and not a juggernaut. Obviously if you signed up for this class then you wanted to have more survivability, utility, and be able to hit hard every now and then. Yes, our survivability is a little lacking. No, I do not want a faceroll cooldown like undying rage. If you think we need better survivability, learn to play the class better or even go immortal or vengeance. I just played a premade WZ with a marauder and he did 600k to my 350k (neither of us used smash all game). But he did 120k healing of about 100-200 ticks a second while my 120k protection was super clutch that kept our healers alive. In the patch, our damage gets "nerfed" in pvp. Good, thats not what our class is about. We do too much as it is. Our utility goes up a little just based off the change to Single-Saber Mastery. Now you can go D-stance without a gigantic nerf to damage. Get to have guard up on people without losing everything. If you don't like these changes, level a marauder as a FotM or just as the class you really wanted to be the whole time.

 

Yes. I am aware that while our utility and survivability is way less compared to certain other classes (hybrid sorcs and Shadow Tanks) but our viability is still intact and theyre just waiting for a nerf.

 

However, yes it would be nice to be able to switch between major damage for trying to 1v1 healers because we don't really have much control and then major utility for helping healers survive when somebody's on them.

Edited March 28, 2012 by LiquidKarbide

[Grishnaak]

A Rage spece Juggernaut is not a tank.

 

If Bioware change that somehow then fair enough, but it's not a tank at the moment.

 

Yeah, that´s true, and even a Mara does crappy DPS in Rage. So what? Both Classes do crappy dmg in Rage as of now, is that what you want to tell?

 

Mara´s have 3 DPS trees, so what do you all want to express by writing Jugs have 2.

Two, yeah, one less DPS tree than the Mara but 1 chance more for diversity. Mara´s can only do dmg, and at that, they have to excel over the other classes, which are able to take another role, or else there would be no need to take a Mara along for the good DPS.

[Grishnaak]

Were gonna be far from useless next patch. If you guys wanted straight faceroll damage and survivability then you should of picked a marauder and not a juggernaut. Obviously if you signed up for this class then you wanted to have more survivability, utility, and be able to hit hard every now and then. Yes, our survivability is a little lacking. No, I do not want a faceroll cooldown like undying rage. If you think we need better survivability, learn to play the class better or even go immortal or vengeance. I just played a premade WZ with a marauder and he did 600k to my 350k (neither of us used smash all game). But he did 120k healing of about 100-200 ticks a second while my 120k protection was super clutch that kept our healers alive. In the patch, our damage gets "nerfed" in pvp. Good, thats not what our class is about. We do too much as it is. Our utility goes up a little just based off the change to Single-Saber Mastery. Now you can go D-stance without a gigantic nerf to damage. Get to have guard up on people without losing everything. If you don't like these changes, level a marauder as a FotM or just as the class you really wanted to be the whole time.

 

Yes. I am aware that while our utility and survivability is way less compared to certain other classes (hybrid sorcs and Shadow Tanks) but our viability is still intact and theyre just waiting for a nerf.

 

However, yes it would be nice to be able to switch between major damage for trying to 1v1 healers because we don't really have much control and then major utility for helping healers survive when somebody's on them.

 

 

Alas, at last, someone who seems to understand his classes role.

You Jugs can do a lot of great, helpful, cool stuff.

 

I would daresay that Jugs should be played foremost by teamplayers.

 

It´s a great class to have by ones side. I am very happy every time a Juggs offering his help as a wingman in Huttenball or in Civil War.

 

Let the Maras do the DMG they´re supposed to do, for without a good Jug Wingman, we Maras fall too easily and cannot help conquer or make a decent touch down.