Drakendrak Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) This post will outline the reasons why the changes made to Sith warrior, specifically juggernaut, should not go through. First of all as a disclaimer, I play juggernaut. I love the class. I play both tank and DPS specs and enjoy them immensely. I write this post from the bias that I don't want the game to be imbalanced. I have never felt underpowered as a juggernaut in either tank or DPS spec. With that said, I won't go through a long list of my qualifications; I know how to play the class. There are videos out there of juggernauts and guardians playing quite effectively and I feel no need to go through anything I've done personally as some vain proof that my argument is best. You simply may read my argument and form your own opinion. Feel free to post any rebuttals if you wish. The bulk of the changes in patch 1.2 are geared at making a Shockwave spec'd DPS juggernaut more powerful. They have increased the duration of both Shockwave and Dominate as well as given Force Charge and Obliterate passive stuns. They have also reduced the cooldown of Force Crush by 3 seconds. What these changes enable is an already extremely powerful burst to be performed on a continuous rotation. As of right now, you can use Force Choke every 47 seconds, Force Crush every 18 seconds, and Smash every 9 seconds if you're spec'd properly. The only limiting factor is that Shockwave and Dominate each last 15 seconds forcing you to work to get two smashes in one proc. This generates a rotation based around trying to get two smashes in one Shockwave and/or Dominate proc. Rage management is easy with Saber Throw, Force Charge, and Enrage, but I'm going to stop my analysis of the current build right there. If you personally have trouble managing to have high damage output with these tools, you cannot blame the design. Yes, you can be CC'ed or knocked-back out of your smashes wasting the cooldown and the Shockwave and Dominate procs. That is a failure of the player and not a flaw in the game design. You have every opportunity to setup the highest potential burst damage in the game with this build as of right now and there are plenty of videos confirming that. For illustration purposes, I have created a time line showing how with an optimal rotation, a juggernaut can theoretically keep Dominate and Shockwave up for every 9 second cooldown of Smash in patch 1.2. This allows what should be the burst DPS of a buffed Smash to be sustained DPS. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/wipragetimeline.jpg/ Forgive the lack of a legend but basically: *The numbers over the skills are the CURRENT RAGE POOL *The thin solid lines represent SKILL COOLDOWNS *The thin dotted lines represent DOMINATE PROC DURATION *The thick solid lines represent the intersection of SMASH and DOMINATE/SHOCKWAVE *The thick dotted lines represent SHOCKWAVE PROC DURATION Now, of course this is theoretical, but you can see that the only limitation to this setup is player skill. As long as you can position yourself to execute each of these skills, you can keep both Shockwave and Dominate on a constant duration. This, in my mind, defeats the purpose of both of these procs. The limiting factor of Pyrotech procs is that they're RNG based, and now with 1.2 will have a 6 second delay added to them. The juggernaut procs are not limited in this way. They were meant to be limited by the duration of Shockwave and Decimate as well as the cooldowns of the abilities that proc. However, a skilled player can clearly navigate those abilities enabling him to be what I would certainly consider overpowered. In addition to these buffs, we are also getting the ability to Vicious Throw at 30% and Battle Cry is now 2 skill points rather than 3. I personally think Battle Cry is essential to a DPS juggernaut, many may disagree. Regardless of that argument, there is no debate that these are more buffs to the Shockwave-centric DPS build. I'll leave it up to readers to debate the numbers that a fully buffed Smash can do, but I think its pretty universally agreed that there is no stronger single hit ability. Amended Disclaimer: I realize now that I made a mistake in not calculating the absence of Force Alclarity in my time line, however I still stand by the opinion that we're getting buffed on the grounds that there are so many other changes to the Shockwave/Dominate build that compound to make it overall better. The major basis for my opinion is that as of right now Juggernaut DPS is not UNDERPOWERED by any means and these changes will effectively increase overall damage output which will compound against the nerfs to PT and OP dps in 1.2. My prediction if this goes unchecked is that Juggernaut dps will become the new IMBA/OP class. That or marauder which I know nothing about. Edited March 18, 2012 by Drakendrak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RendakFel Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Very well thought out. I can easily see this rotation COMPLETELY breaking voidstar, Civil War, and the new BG (different map, same concept as Civil War). I will be shocked if we don't see jugg's breaking 1 mil on these WZ's now in extreme cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjirai Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Rage did not get buffed, It got nerfed pretty much for juggs. 3s longer cooldown on force scream + smash. (No Force Alacrity anymore) Decimate seems do add only 20% damage instead of 30% (not in the patch notes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I looked over the Jugg changes ... They sucked! Then I took a look at the Mara changes ... And all I have to say is HOPE LIKE HELL MY 41 MARA GOT LOTS OF RESTBONUS!!!!!!!! Bio - this is the first time Im DISPLEASED since release! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdots Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Rage did not get buffed, It got nerfed pretty much for juggs. 3s longer cooldown on force scream + smash. (No Force Alacrity anymore) Decimate seems do add only 20% damage instead of 30% (not in the patch notes) ^ That is correct, sir. It no longer makes sense to go Jug rather than Marauder if one wishes to have a rage build. I suppose one could argue that the rage jug has more utility with intercede, guards and taunt, but I don't think this makes up for the increased DPS from a Marauder. This is a nerf to the Jug class. Edited March 17, 2012 by blackdots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 ^ That is correct, sir. It no longer makes sense to go Jug rather than Marauder if one wishes to have a rage build. I suppose one could argue that the rage jug has more utility with intercede, guards and taunt, but I don't think this makes up for the increased DPS from a Marauder. This is a nerf to the Jug class. I have a hard time seeing ANY reason to go jugg instead of mara. Coolnes aint enough, Maras got their defensive cd´s BUFFED as well as damage in both Rage and Carnage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbokr Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) I have a hard time seeing ANY reason to go jugg instead of mara. Coolnes aint enough, Maras got their defensive cd´s BUFFED as well as damage in both Rage and Carnage. We got our damage CDs nerfed bro--a 100% damage reduction on vanish pre-1.2 made it an easy escape and amazing when used with undying rage. Now you only have 50% damage reduction, meaning you'll probably just be knocked out of stealth everytime you use it, and the only time it's useful is to open/confuse someone (like it always has been) or to try to negate some rage specced marauder/jugg damage. But we did get a lot of quality of life changes that you received as well. We have the pure damage and group utility, juggs have the damage paired with versatility (stuns, force push, spammable taunt, and guard). Edited March 17, 2012 by Anbokr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasgruberg Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Im amazed these new added stuns doesnt bother people. Useless resolve bar filling. Thats a nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 We got our damage CDs nerfed bro--a 100% damage reduction on vanish pre-1.2 made it an easy escape and amazing when used with undying rage. Now you only have 50% damage reduction, meaning you'll probably just be knocked out of stealth everytime you use it, and the only time it's useful is to open/confuse someone (like it always has been) or to try to negate some rage specced marauder/jugg damage. But we did get a lot of quality of life changes that you received as well. We have the pure damage and group utility, juggs have the damage paired with versatility (stuns, force push, spammable taunt, and guard). No you (we, ive got a 41 alt mara thats gonna be new main now) didnt get damage CD´s nerfed, they got buffed! Maybe not for Annihilition but the other 2 trees sure as hell got it! And Obfuscate costs no rage, Force Camo is now 50% damage-reduction TO ALL specs. Annihilition didnt even get nerfed when you weigh in all the general buffs. They just have to share the good stuff with Carnage (thats getting some really nice buffs to damage as well as Rage) Combined with the overall SW-buffs, Maras just got buffed like reeeal good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonated Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Are you really blaming the player that an instant cast spell can be interrupted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xDreegan Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Wait.. are you guys complaining that you, as a Tank based class, won't be able to DPS as well as a Pure DPS Class? If so... my god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Wait.. are you guys complaining that you, as a Tank based class, won't be able to DPS as well as a Pure DPS Class? If so... my god. Yes we are , since we are supposed to be viable as dps. I also have complaints about the fact that mara´s gotbetter defensive cd´s than a "Tank-class" But hey ... I always got my 41 Mara alt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakendrak Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Rage did not get buffed, It got nerfed pretty much for juggs. 3s longer cooldown on force scream + smash. (No Force Alacrity anymore) Decimate seems do add only 20% damage instead of 30% (not in the patch notes) You're correct. I overlooked that in my analysis. Even still, you've got a net gain of time on Dominate and Shockwave being increased to 20 seconds from 15, while losing 3 seconds on your c/d's. I may amend my time line to reflect this oversight, but don't really want to do the work. Still, if you look at my rotation, I'm not putting in free force screams from Battle Cry, and I only put in one sundering assault for rage building in the entire rotation. This was just a demonstration of how you can keep Shockwave and Dominate up on a 9 second Smash. Amended you'd still be able to keep them up on a 12 second Smash, with a net gain of 2 seconds to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Wait.. are you guys complaining that you, as a Tank based class, won't be able to DPS as well as a Pure DPS Class? If so... my god. You must have missed the part where marauders can tank better than two of the three jugg specs. Oooh yea, "tank based class". **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenoNation Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Yes we are , since we are supposed to be viable as dps. I also have complaints about the fact that mara´s gotbetter defensive cd´s than a "Tank-class" But hey ... I always got my 41 Mara alt. "Viable" does not mean "exactly the same as." Edited March 18, 2012 by PenoNation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtysolutions Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 "Viable" does not mean "exactly the same as." No .. It doesnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonated Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 You must have missed the part where marauders can tank better than two of the three jugg specs. Oooh yea, "tank based class". **** so marauders tank better then every spec of jugg except the juggs only tank tree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brahmabull Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Smash will be on a 12 second cooldown: Force Alacrity has been replaced by Overpower, which allows Vicious Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Rage while the Juggernaut is in Shii-Cho Form. No more 3 second cooldown reduction. That's why they made Force Crush 18 seconds flat. It's 18 seconds now WITH Force Alacrity, which is being removed in 1.2. Also, Force Choke will be back to a 1min cooldown: Ravager now increases the damage of Ravage instead of affecting Force Choke. Edited March 18, 2012 by Brahmabull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwakkwak Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Wait.. are you guys complaining that you, as a Tank based class, won't be able to DPS as well as a Pure DPS Class? If so... my god. play the class not the role. if juggs were only suppose to tank we'd have 3 tank trees. this whole hybrid v pure BS is crap. sorry you're a butthurt mara who got a lightsaber taken by a jugg once. if you wanted the option to tank you had a chance at level 10. if a sniper wanted to heal he had the chance at level 10. deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaull Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 My name is dum juggs and I want to be a tank, a dps, and a hybrid when I grow up. If I cant then I am going to quit the game and complain on the forums just like all those other juggulars do. Its not fair that a pure dps class can out dps me. It makes me think I am not viable dps. I do not really know what is viable dps to be honest though but I wont tell no one that...all i know is that I cant compete with marauder dps. So im going to *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwakkwak Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 My name is dum juggs and I want to be a tank, a dps, and a hybrid when I grow up. If I cant then I am going to quit the game and complain on the forums just like all those other juggulars do. Its not fair that a pure dps class can out dps me. It makes me think I am not viable dps. I do not really know what is viable dps to be honest though but I wont tell no one that...all i know is that I cant compete with marauder dps. So im going to *****. more like why do pure dpsers care if a hybrid does the same dps as them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandyzazzy Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) No you (we, ive got a 41 alt mara thats gonna be new main now) didnt get damage CD´s nerfed, they got buffed! Maybe not for Annihilition but the other 2 trees sure as hell got it! And Obfuscate costs no rage, Force Camo is now 50% damage-reduction TO ALL specs. Annihilition didnt even get nerfed when you weigh in all the general buffs. They just have to share the good stuff with Carnage (thats getting some really nice buffs to damage as well as Rage) Combined with the overall SW-buffs, Maras just got buffed like reeeal good. You have no idea what you are talking about and not one person here will agree with you. Stop while you are behind please its just embarrassing. What are all these buffs you are babbling about for marauders? they took away 1 focus cost for kick/awe omg game breaking!!1!!11 oh wait its not since im never focus starved because bads hit me with rebuke up everytime and feed me focus and if not zealous for 6 stack...you make it sound like were gonna be shelling out pre nerfed operative dmg or some crap... Edited March 18, 2012 by xandyzazzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Wait.. are you guys complaining that you, as a Tank based class, won't be able to DPS as well as a Pure DPS Class? If so... my god. How is a rage based Juggernaunt spec a "tank"? A Rage based Jugg is more squishy than ANY spec of Marauders (including Rage Marauder). If you can "explain" that you probably work for Bioware. Edited March 18, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 How is a rage based Juggernaunt spec a "tank"? A Rage based Jugg is more squishy than ANY spec of Marauders (including Rage Marauder). If you can "explain" that you probably work for Bioware. Funny because it's true. That interview about tank stats in PvP left me wondering if he was trolling or serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 so marauders tank better then every spec of jugg except the juggs only tank tree? Inexplicably they will take damage better yes (in 1.2) - they do at the moment unless your pure tank or tank/veng hybrid spec. That's not entirely the same thing as "tank" due to taunt and such, but then a Sorc doesn't become a "tank" if you give it taunt. The problem seems to be that Marauders will take damage better and deal damage better... that simply cannot be sustainable for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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