No nerf to tank Shadows?

[Aethyrprime]

You have Knockback, Force Shroud, Vanish, Self Uninterruptable Healing (you can get knockbacked / stunned i'm aware), Force Speed. ( i may have missed some)

 

PTs gets. 25% Damage Reduction. 2.5K Health over 10 secs on a 2 min cooldown....

 

EDIT: Most of the PT Survivability is derived off Shielding which is far from optimal in PvP.

 

The other tanks also either have Knockbacks/CC/Defensive CDs/Options to heal, Pulling, jumping, stuns, and better base Armor rating/Defense Chance, etc, or any combination of the above.

 

Force shroud is useless against a good player... perhaps a seems OP to a bad player and typically only used for emergencies when you need to "vanish" aka Force Cloak. The reason? DoTs pop you right back out of stealth and there are more DoTs in this game than even CC.

 

There is no reliable self healing on demand, it requires:

A) a non hybrid build

B) clueless players who don't knockback or stun

C) stacks of a proc to even be worth attempting and also shares a CD with an offensive ranged attack

 

Force speed lasts for a whopping 2s.. They have Less armor, less defense chance, only force pull, no ability to leap to a target as a PT and Jugg have.. Our CC do not cause damage (See Juggs talented force choke), we don't have any big AOE attacks (Wither is a debuff, snare not really a good choice for dpsing) Did I miss anything? Look I get it, you don't understand how to face an assassin, learn how to beat them and profit.

 

Any assassin who uses Force Shroud separate from Force Cloak is not going to be vanishing for more than 2s most of the time thanks to DoTs. That negates the usefulness of the skill in a fight outside of very special circumstances. The only time an assassin might use force shroud with no intent of using force cloak right after is when they are the ball carrier in Huttball or suiciding to stop a cap. Nothing wrong with either as other classes have it better..

 

My Jugg scores way more points than my assassin... 2x Force Leap ftw!

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[exphryl]

You also have Knockback

 

No, PTs do not have a knockback. The fact you are arguing with another class at this point without taking a few secs to look up what they have is silly.

 

The rest of your post is a bunch of gibberish but I'll pick it apart as best I can.

 

Force shroud is useless against a good player... perhaps a seems OP to a bad player and typically only used for emergencies when you need to vanish.

 

I under 100% of the classes use Non-Tech and Non-Force abilities to where it becomes a useless ability for you. I also see you fail to understand how immunity assist greatly in objective capping (since well, that's a part of PvP Also), or holding a point a bit longer

 

Either or since it's useless to you I'm sure you could do without it then if they removed it.

 

There is no reliable self healing on demand, it requires A) a non hybrid build, B) clueless players who don't knockback or stun, C) stacks of a proc to even be worth attempting and also shares a CD with an offensive ranged attack

 

Point is, as we were comparing defensive abilities, Sins *have* Self Healing which is fairly strong.

 

force speed lasts for a whopping 2s.. Less armor, less defense chance, only force pull, no ability to leap to a target as a PT and Jugg have.

.

 

2 Secs of speed is more then enough time to get away from most classes. Not to mention again, potential to cap a point in Huttball or get to the next point in Void Star Faster. Add in Force Speed + Force Shroud. Leap for both Juggs and PTs (not talking about intercede) require an enemy player in visible range. That doesn't do much for survivability does it?

 

Our CC do not cause damage, we don't have any big AOE attacks (Wither is a debuff, snare not really a good choice for dpsing) Did I miss anything? Look I get it, you don't understand how to face an assassin, learn how to beat them and profit.

 

PTs CC cause damage? This is new to me. Oh yeah. They don't. So not understating that statement. But the fact apparently you fail to understand we don't have a knockback either leads me to think you believe our stuns do massive damage or something of that nature.

 

To go with your train of though. Look I get it, you don't want to believe your class could use some tweaks to bring it in line balance wise with the other tank spec tanks. I understand you would not be able to adjust your play-style at all and instead cling to a spec that does it all. Change scares you, I understand.

Edited March 17, 2012 by exphryl

[Zoombi]

You're clueless.

 

and you're next. enjoy.

[Aethyrprime]

No, PTs do not have a knockback. The fact you are arguing with another class at this point without taking a few secs to look up what they have is silly.

 

The rest of your post is a bunch of gibberish but I'll pick it apart as best I can.

 

 

 

I under 100% of the classes use Non-Tech and Non-Force abilities to where it becomes a useless ability for you. I also see you fail to understand how immunity assist greatly in objective capping (since well, that's a part of PvP Also), or holding a point a bit longer

 

Either or since it's useless to you I'm sure you could do without it then if they removed it.

 

 

 

Point is, as we were comparing defensive abilities, Sins *have* Self Healing which is fairly strong.

 

.

 

2 Secs of speed is more then enough time to get away from most classes. Not to mention again, potential to cap a point in Huttball or get to the next point in Void Star Faster. Add in Force Speed + Force Shroud. Leap for both Juggs and PTs (not talking about intercede) require an enemy player in visible range. That doesn't do much for survivability does it?

 

 

 

PTs CC cause damage? This is new to me. Oh yeah. They don't. So not understating that statement. But the fact apparently you fail to understand we don't have a knockback either leads me to think you believe our stuns do massive damage or something of that nature.

 

To go with your train of though. Look I get it, you don't want to believe your class could use some tweaks to bring it in line balance wise with the other tank spec tanks. I understand you would not be able to adjust your play-style at all and instead cling to a spec that does it all. Change scares you, I understand.

Since everything you just posted is gibberish let me just reply to it like this.

 

You apparently never played an Assassin. Try it. Then come back.

 

In reference to the underlined portions of your statements, I was referring to Juggs & PT's together not one individually. When you take that in to consideration every last word of what I said is true.

 

Force speed is so easily countered by any class with a snare as it does not make you immune to snares. Furthermore, any assassin using Force Shroud will not be successfully be using Force Cloak any time soon. Unless the two are used together one is pretty much useless making it an either or scenario. Either you get 5s of Immunity and no ability to vanish or you save it and eat the damage in hopes of escaping. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about as evidenced in both of your last posts. I have played all of these classes exclusively in pvp and was valor capped on each as a result their entire way up.

 

Sins have no on demand self healing, yet you admit that PTs do. You said "2,500 HP over 10s" this is a button you can push is it not? Does it require 3x stacks of a proc to work? Does it require a target to be in range and not immune? Does it require that you did not use that ability as an offensive attack recently? No I think not. Is yours interruptable Via any method be it limited to Knockback/stun? No. Try again please.

 

There is no need for a change, The DEVs agree. Most good pvpers agree. If you think for one second your baseless, factless, ranting makes you some how right.. well then power to ya! The truth stands and your lies fail.

 

GG and do try again.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[exphryl]

You apparently never played an Assassin. Try it. Then come back. I was referring to Juggs & PT's together not one individually. When you take that in to consideration every last word of what I said is true.

 

So what you are saying is

 

2 class's abilities = 1 class's ability?

 

Got it. Just making sure you are still spouting nonsense.

 

There is no need for a change, The DEVs agree. Most good pvpers agree. If you think for one second your baseless, factless, ranting makes you some how right.. well then power to ya! The truth stands and your lies fail.

 

For the sake of balance, yes there is. You saying otherwise just solidifies the fact you want to be at the top of the food chain.

 

Take my class for example, we 100% deserve a burst damage nerf. Regardless of lack of survivability or any other excuse thrown out there, it's too high and hurts balance. The fact I didn't see a change surprised me greatly in the patch notes. I'm guessing the Devs agree I should be able to do over 18K damage in about 6 secs to a BM Geared player.

 

I am intelligent enough to realize that about my class. You seem to be lacking in that category for yours.

Edited March 17, 2012 by exphryl

[Aethyrprime]

So what you are saying is

 

2 class's abilities = 1 class's ability?

 

Got it. Just making sure you are still spouting nonsense.

 

 

 

For the sake of balance, yes there is. You saying otherwise just solidifies the fact you want to be at the top of the food chain.

 

Take my class for example, we 100% deserve a burst damage nerf. Regardless of lack of survivability or any other excuse thrown out there, it's too high and hurts balance. The fact I didn't see a change surprised me greatly in the patch notes.

 

I am intelligent enough to realize that about my class. You seem to be lacking in that category for yours.

 

Patently false once again. You really should either respond to a whole post or not at all. Selective misquoting and responding makes you look foolish.

 

I clearly stated I play all of these classes and that of the pack Assassins are in the middle, that means balanced. I have NO issues what so ever killing tankasins on any other class I play. If you do, you're doing it wrong. Sins have NO burst damage, limited survival tools with very short durations, long lockouts and require tons of procs to be used. Once again I will state, "The Dev's agree that Tankasins are fine" as evidenced by the patch notes.

 

Why would I for any reason wish for any class I play to become broken? I play them all so I want them all to be equal. That is why I have the stance I do. If I could not beat tankasins on my alts I would believe you that my prowess on my tankasin was the status quo and that the class was in some fashion OP. This is not the case as I eat them alive on everything else. So this is called PBKAC or L2P take your pick.

 

Anyway, I made a broad generalization about "the other tanks" because that is what this topic is about. It's not Assassin > PT.. this thread is attempting to make the claim that "Assassin>ALL other tanks"! So I am speaking specifically in these terms. You can try to twist the wording and misquote all day long. It doesn't change the fact that every last word you've wasted time typing in this thread is "FALSE".

 

GG and please try again!

 

{EDIT} And to burst your theory about wanting to be king of the hill.. My account expires on the 19th and I have no intentions of resubscribing. This has nothing to do with 1.2 patch notes except for one thing.. There's no mention of how they plan to add meaningful end game world pvp to SWTOR (Like the post in my signature suggests).

 

The only reason I am posting in this thread at all is that I, unlike most posters here, actually have a lot of experience on both sides of the fence and am fighting the misinformation and lies as a public service to the rest of the players and possibly the Developers too who may browse this topic. I don't hate this game. I wish it had meaningful end game pvp because it really is one of the most balanced pvp games ever. Maybe in 6-12 months I'll come back if they add meaningful pvp to the game. The only thing I hate so far is the average competence of people who post in this forum and the gross moderation and horrible customer service that you find here.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[thefishdude]

Not true

I play infiltration spec and have very little problem with survivabililty

 

Had a lvl 50 Shadow (65 valor). Did DPS the entire way, but decided to give the tank spec a shot. I'll never go back. I live longer and actually put out more damage because of it.

 

Only two possible reasons that you don't have a problems:

 

1) You're geared and your opponent isn't. (most likely)

 

2) You're playing against blind people.

[AGx-Spike]

I'm a sage.

I prepared myself for a nerf, I knew it was likely coming, though I really didn't expect it to be as brutal as it is.

 

Now for shadows - why are they not touched?

 

In my honest opinion, the one class that needed a nerf more than any other was tank shadow/assassins.

 

Reasoning for this :

 

1) 5 second immunity (on most moves in the game) on 45 second cool down

2) High single target DPS

3) Remove the reason for anyone to spec either of the other tanks

4) Every shadow I know now goes tank spec - if someone is looking for a DPS build, they are advised to go the tank spec.

 

Hell, why wouldn't they? It has incredibly high defences and still high damage, with a channelled move that can't be interrupted when procced. High utility, the highest survivability, stealth to get away, sprint... Am I missing anything?

 

What was behind this decision? Where is the balance between PVE and PVP? Are these changes based on who QQed the most?

 

If anyone can construct a logical argument that opposes this line of thought please present it. I'm currently at an utter loss to why I'd go anything but a tank shadow currently in PVP.

 

Have you PLAYED a Shadow/Assassin? The reason people tell other people to play the tank spec is because the other ones are bad (for PvP anyway, IMO). When they say Shadow/Assassin is a "glass cannon" they aren't joking. Sure the DPS is high but any competent DPS will drop us like a bad habit. Put a DoT on us and we're screwed. If they buffed the other specs, maybe shifted some of the abilitys within tree's around, maybe we'd use the other specs. I wouldn't cuz I play a tank in every MMO I play but I'm sure the others would pick up steam.

[AGx-Spike]

 

Point is, as we were comparing defensive abilities, Sins *have* Self Healing which is fairly strong.

 

 

So, your counter to the fact that the ability to self heal, however powerful, requires multiple procs to pull off and is easily interrupted by damn near every class (if you're playing one that has no knockback or stun, I don't feel sorry for you), is that they "have" it? You might as well tell BW to remove Project. It can be powerful under the right circumstances, does that mean we shouldn't have it just because we're competent enough to play to our classes strengths?

 

I urge you to go play a Shadow or Assassin. You'll love it but you'll see all the glaring weaknesses. I see them in Guardan/Jugg and Sent/Maraud because I've played them.

[Raggok]

No you entirely skipped my post. Try looking at the rest of it.. A PT has better damage than an assassin, equal surivability and probably better utility since it can both leap & pull has Knock back and stun/interrupts. What is the issue? Again, way to try to dodge the question.. Here let me help you I'll quote myself so it's on this page in full and give you another try.. BTW Please highlight the "insult" in that post.. I read it again and I can't find one?

 

PT/Vanguards do not have a knock back. They also don't have an AoE snare, which places them as the worst true tank at peeling for healers IMO.

 

Juggs and Guardians are the best true tanks because they have all of the tools. IMO, again.

[Aethyrprime]

PT/Vanguards do not have a knock back. They also don't have an AoE snare, which places them as the worst true tank at peeling for healers IMO.

 

Juggs and Guardians are the best true tanks because they have all of the tools. IMO, again.

 

I know this. As I stated. I am lumping the two together because this is a "Assassin tanks vs Jugg & PT Tanks" thread not a "Assassins vs PT Tanks" thread. I'll go back and clarify if my choice of wording is confusing.

 

{Edit} There I hope that clears up any future misunderstandings of the posts intent.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[Raggok]

In reference to the underlined portions of your statements, I was referring to Juggs & PT's together not one individually. When you take that in to consideration every last word of what I said is true.

 

"A PT has better damage than an assassin, equal surivability and probably better utility since it can both leap & pull has Knock back and stun/interrupts"

 

No, you weren't. You are a liar. Your choice of words is not confusing. You were just flat out wrong and now you are lying to save face.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Raggok

[Aethyrprime]

"A PT has better damage than an assassin, equal surivability and probably better utility since it can both leap & pull has Knock back and stun/interrupts"

 

No, you weren't. You are a liar. Your choice of words is not confusing. You were just flat out wrong and now you are lying to save face.

 

I'm calling ********. Quote it? And I don't mean what you type by hand.

[Raggok]

I'm calling ********. Quote it? And I don't mean what you type by hand.

 

You've gone back and edited what you typed that was incorrect and now you accuse people who quoted you accurately of making it up. Can you get any more pathetic? You are a joke.

[Aethyrprime]

You've gone back and edited what you typed that was incorrect and now you accuse people who quoted you accurately of making it up. Can you get any more pathetic? You are a joke.

 

When you can't form a valid argument against your opposition.. Just make **** up and toss around insults! Nicely played.

 

You know the age old saying.. Screenshot or it didn't happen. Quotes can be manipulated screenshots are much harder.

 

Let's just give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend I did do this.. It would have required me to read through 5 pages of "wall-o-text" posts to find it before you who supposedly knows what post this came from could even use the /quote feature? Riiiight..

 

Ok so let's pretend I did this. I'll let your imagination have it's moment. It still changes absolutely nothing in this debate as every attempt to make a point about a Tank-a-sins performance has be easily refuted by fact. The few posts here and there trying to claim that Tank-a-sins are OP have no ground to stand on and have been countered by multiple people beyond myself. Additionally, I have nothing to gain. My account runs out in 2 days. I will gain no benefit either way of the outcome of this debate. That means I am here simply sharing my experiences and will let the developers who call the shots determine which side is right or wrong. The patch notes say your side is wrong.

 

/thread

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[Xerain]

It's clear after seeing these notes they honestly are clueless. I've seen bad patches when it comes to balance before, but these guys need to get real. Sent getting buffed? Scoundrel nerfed, sin and shadow tanks left alone primarily, come on get a clue..

 

Scoundrel nerfed in the way that you can't just spam 1 ability anymore for all your damage... oh man that's such a sad thing.

[Xerain]

[quote=Aethyrprime;3480114

 

Assassin tanks have NO burst. They have average sustained dps, average survivability (Any 2 or more people can drop one in seconds), they have no reliable on demand self healing, they have great utility making them the defacto "control class". This is obviously intended based on how the class is designed.

 

no burst huh? just stack harnessed darkness then a energize proc and pop recklessness then lightning>Shock and hope for a chain shock. My cent geared sin is critting for like 2200 with shock and 1200 lightning ticks... Seen much higher in videos of 2k lightning ticks and 3K shocks... so yeah no burst.

[Raggok]

When you can't form a valid argument against your opposition.. Just make **** up and toss around insults! Nicely played.

 

You know the age old saying.. Screenshot or it didn't happen. Quotes can be manipulated screenshots are much harder.

 

Let's just give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend I did do this.. It would have required me to read through 5 pages of "wall-o-text" posts to find it before you who supposedly knows what post this came from could even use the /quote feature? Riiiight..

 

Ok so let's pretend I did this. I'll let your imagination have it's moment. It still changes absolutely nothing in this debate as every attempt to make a point about a Tank-a-sins performance has be easily refuted by fact. The few posts here and there trying to claim that Tank-a-sins are OP have no ground to stand on and have been countered by multiple people beyond myself. Additionally, I have nothing to gain. My account runs out in 2 days. I will gain no benefit either way of the outcome of this debate. That means I am here simply sharing my experiences and will let the developers who call the shots determine which side is right or wrong. The patch notes say your side is wrong.

 

/thread

 

Heh. Is your guilty conscience getting to you or something?

 

Hint: The quote I put in orange is actually from an earlier post of mine where I did use the /quote feature on you. Not that it matters because the quote feature can be faked too. I guess you weren't smart enough to know that.

 

Not only am I a liar but I bear false witness against my neighbors as well!

 

You can also see another quote from Eph that has you saying PT only. Of course, you went back and edited that post as well and then insulted him even though he accurately quoted you. You are a real piece of work. Enjoy your time in hell if it is exists.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Raggok

[Fenomen]

***, did i just read how a nice and humble pvper owned a cocky Person with lack of self awareness?

[olagaton]

Not true

I play infiltration spec and have very little problem with survivabililty

With that healer helping you stay alive, I'm sure you don't!

[Chiefy]

I say we should take away assassinate for tank spec shadows and give to to deception only. And add a heal/cast debuff to surging discharge.

 

Off topic - i admit i properly laughed when i seen your sig, thanks for cheering up a very tired deception assassin:)

 

edit: the deception remains the "main" however since then my pyro PT "alt" has overtook him on creds/valor rank :s

 

i know for all intents and purposes tank spec would be more viable, But its just not what i wanted my assassin to be, so the assassin is left for raids, and some pvp if im bored of facemelting people on the PT

Edited March 18, 2012 by Chiefy

[ShadowOfVey]

Shouldn't we be striving to have more specs like Tankasins?

 

Tankasins don't bully people. They do however have all the tools they need to be useful in most situations. It's a complete spec, that's a good thing.

 

Madness and deception are not complete specs and need buffs to utility (or survivability, probably not both).

[johnyangelo]

Have you PLAYED a Shadow/Assassin? The reason people tell other people to play the tank spec is because the other ones are bad (for PvP anyway, IMO). When they say Shadow/Assassin is a "glass cannon" they aren't joking. Sure the DPS is high but any competent DPS will drop us like a bad habit. Put a DoT on us and we're screwed. If they buffed the other specs, maybe shifted some of the abilitys within tree's around, maybe we'd use the other specs. I wouldn't cuz I play a tank in every MMO I play but I'm sure the others would pick up steam.

 

You're clueless man. No DPS will drop me as a tank-assasin. I can so easily hold of 4 ppl from capturing the turret untill my team come. < This is still OK, BUT I'm also able to pull out 300K dmg and that compare to other tank classes is crazy and unbalanced + I have all those nice debuffs, removers and 5 CCs.

[Vember]

You're clueless man. No DPS will drop me as a tank-assasin. I can so easily hold of 4 ppl from capturing the turret untill my team come. < This is still OK, BUT I'm also able to pull out 300K dmg and that compare to other tank classes is crazy and unbalanced + I have all those nice debuffs, removers and 5 CCs.

 

Lies. Two marauders will bend a tank shadow over and have their way with him. One on one a good shadow will beat a good marauder, but not 2v1, and certainly not 1 marauder and 3 of anything else.

 

Maybe four really terrible keyboard turning bounty hunters that never picked their AC?

 

For the record, I play a 50 shadow, and the guy you quoted brought up a very good point: The other two specs suck. Hard.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Vember

[Synacus]

Ok Im a assassin and I do play the tank spec I'm going tell you why they are leaving us alone.They have no clue *** to do with us.

 

When I say this I mean our other two specs are trash and the only way to make those two specs really work would be to buff them...AND YOU DO NOT WANT THAT.

 

Why?Becuase think OPs pre~nerf.So what are they to do with us?Atleast have us out in the open fighting ppl so they can see what they are fighting or have us stun lock you to death.

 

Thats the only two ways they can spin it.You rather be stun locked to death?