Thanks for Killing Sage/Sorc

[astrocanis]

So you lost an AOE ability on an instant cast(when proc'd). That's going to prevent you from kiting anyone?

 

No. It's going to mean they have very few tools to kill whoever they are kiting. Kiting simply becomes "a slower death, I sure hope my teammates have put aside their chase red nametags mania and come help before I am gone."

 

Because kiting without either strong heals for longevity or instant cast tools to fight back with is merely running around hoping not to die.

 

I don't play a sorc. I do sympathize with them.

 

[edit] There are no Shamans in this game. Chain lightning is not what you think it is.

Edited March 17, 2012 by astrocanis

[Theobeo]

What most people forget to see with the sorc nerf is the fact that bioware did this:

 

Instead of BOOSTING the single-target damage capabitlies of the sorceress in consistence of:

 

- Infinite force in madness AND / OR more dmg on creeping terror

- Removing cooldown from Thundering Blast and/or the 10 sec cooldown on lightning-strike chainlightning to prevent pure CC-counter by other classes

 

Bioware chose to NERF the aoe spec (Which also was the most powerful spec for sorcs both for AOE and Single-target, but not overpowered, only the single-target spec was underpowred), they could have chosen to boost the pure lightning tree and the pure madness tree.

[AGx-Spike]

Sorc allrdy had a hard time with kiting classes as you know, and we have THE worst class for 1v1, the only chance we had was to kite. Now they removed the ability to cast chain lightning off our free proc from FL. So basically, all the hybrid specs are nerfed from 1.2 and on. Now we can go full lightning, healer or madness. All the hybrid specs were centered around instant cast chain lightning. So now you cant get a kite spec with chain lightning proc.

 

This is a really big step towards death for sorcs. Unfortunetly I had hoped that they would fix our lightning tree before they killed an allrdy underpowered class, but they have felt nerfing some of our only viable options was the way to go.

 

For all of you that felt you couldnt kill sorc, well... From now on there will be alot less. So now you will see what its like to be killed by all the really OP classes. Lets guess what class that will be super whined about next. Maybe snipers will get nerfed

 

When your class can self heal it should be the worst class for 1v1. In case you haven't noticed the game isn't balanced around 1v1. Tank classes are in the same boat. I can sit and smash a Commando all day and not kill him by myself (unless he's just bad, or not well geared). DPS cant survive long without hiding or stopping to heal somehow.

 

Sorc/Sage on the other hand currently have the best of both worlds. They can heal to survive, have tons of CC and can do damage. Even if its not huge bursts they can easily knock down every class 1v1 if the player is good enough by simply wittling them down and not dieing. How fair is that? If you don't want to nerf sage/sorc, buff everyone else.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Zilrota
removed rude from quote

[Theobeo]

No. It's going to mean they have very few tools to kill whoever they are kiting. Kiting simply becomes "a slower death, I sure hope my teammates have put aside their chase red nametags mania and come help before I am gone."

 

Because kiting without either strong heals for longevity or instant cast tools to fight back with is merely running around hoping not to die.

 

I don't play a sorc. I do sympathize with them.

 

[edit] There are no Shamans in this game. Chain lightning is not what you think it is.

 

This is quite true, but not entirely.

 

The sorc can easily rely on mobility even with the proc nerf, since they're simple going to use it on CD and lightning strike instead, which sucks although.

 

The problem is that sorcs are now NEITHER capable of doing dmg with AOE or single-target COMPARED to the amount of CC/healing they have and COMPARED to how *********** squishy they are, and compared to the speccing sacrifices you have to make (I.E: CC specs, buffs, etc)

 

Therefore the sorceress mobility has been reduced if you want to maintain AOE dmg, as for pure lightning spec is EASILY avoided since all casts are high-timered and easily avoided by a wall.

 

The only 0/18/23 hybrid spec now seems to be clueless, since why proc your 20% dmg no lightningstrike and pray to god you get a lightning storm proc which DOES NOT have the 20% dmg bonus? And why the **** do you need to proc it on chrusing darkness when it has 15 sec cooldown?

 

And pure madness has very high mobility and single-target dmg posibilities, but utilizing this correctly causes your force to sink in 10 seconds.

 

What most ppl think is that its OP for sorcs to have infinite force, but forgets that SORCS CANNOT REGEN FORCE WHEN YOU'rE DEAD ON FORCE UNLESS U GET OUT OF COMBAT, SO I DONT WANT TO READ THAT **** ANYMORE+´

 

 

 

Therefore, IMO, sorcs has been destroyed.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Zilrota
removed rude

[FourTwent]

No. It's going to mean they have very few tools to kill whoever they are kiting. Kiting simply becomes "a slower death, I sure hope my teammates have put aside their chase red nametags mania and come help before I am gone."

 

Because kiting without either strong heals for longevity or instant cast tools to fight back with is merely running around hoping not to die.

 

I don't play a sorc. I do sympathize with them.

 

[edit] There are no Shamans in this game. Chain lightning is not what you think it is.

 

I dunno, I mean disturbance(im not sure of the sorc names) isn't that much worse than TK Wave. . .at least when you look at it from kiting one person(for some reason the focus here is kiting exclusively. . .which just sounds odd to me. . .its like you're going to kite multiple well skill people at the same time for very long).

 

I was always told that Mind Crush(again, sorry I dunno the sorc names) was the best ability to use when you had a Presence of Mind proc(again, assuming you're kiting one person). I've seen that initial tick crit into the low 4 digits, plus it applies a dot equating more damage.

 

At least with my play-style, this PoM change is only going to prevent me(or an entire group of sages and sorcs) from sitting on the outskirts of the fight, using lightning/rocks to hit procs and then spamming the AoE TK Wave.

 

Yes it will make the 'number padding' harder. . .but I hate to tell ya, numbers dont mean anything. Been in many warzones where I was the only communication for the team. Running back and forth from door to door(and node to node) really makes it tough to pad your numbers. And to those people with 300k+ dmg in huttball I hate you. Try running ahead of me instead of attacking one of the 3+ people attacking me, to delay my death by 1 second at max. I would rather pass it to you and die/respawn quick than to look ahead of me and see no one to pass to

 

Sorry about the rant XD

[FourTwent]

This is quite true, but not entirely.

 

The sorc can easily rely on mobility even with the proc nerf, since they're simple going to use it on CD and lightning strike instead, which sucks although.

 

The problem is that sorcs are now NEITHER capable of doing dmg with AOE or single-target COMPARED to the amount of CC/healing they have and COMPARED to how *********** squishy they are, and compared to the speccing sacrifices you have to make (I.E: CC specs, buffs, etc)

 

Therefore the sorceress mobility has been reduced if you want to maintain AOE dmg, as for pure lightning spec is EASILY avoided since all casts are high-timered and easily avoided by a wall.

 

The only 0/18/23 hybrid spec now seems to be clueless, since why proc your 20% dmg no lightningstrike and pray to god you get a lightning storm proc which DOES NOT have the 20% dmg bonus? And why the **** do you need to proc it on chrusing darkness when it has 15 sec cooldown?

 

And pure madness has very high mobility and single-target dmg posibilities, but utilizing this correctly causes your force to sink in 10 seconds.

 

What most ppl think is that its OP for sorcs to have infinite force, but forgets that SORCS CANNOT REGEN FORCE WHEN YOU'rE DEAD ON FORCE UNLESS U GET OUT OF COMBAT, SO I DONT WANT TO READ THAT **** ANYMORE+´

 

Therefore, IMO, sorcs has been destroyed.

 

This person gets it.

 

It makes that one AoE less potent since you can't spam it on proc, nothing more. The hyrbid build was an epic AoE spec.

 

The class is uber-squishy, but I'm sure there's a whole list of things I have yet to learn on my sage as far as 'getting outta dodge'.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Zilrota
edited rude from quote

[Saerol]

I'm hoping that this being the first "round" of patch notes for 1.2, there are a lot more changes coming to both of the single target (Lightning/Telekinetics) and DoT (Madness/Balance) trees before this goes live. If not, we'll all have proof that Bioware really did just listen to the massive outcry for nerfs instead of actually doing testing themselves.

 

Sorcs/Sages are the squishiest class in the game, hands down. Yes, we have access to several survivability cooldowns, but with the current resolve system aside from force speed they are unreliable in almost any non 1v1 situation. Shields are part of our healing utility, to claim they are a defensive cooldown is just foolish when you compare it to the defensive cooldowns available to Sentinels & Marauders.

 

When it comes to the burst damage available to a Sorc/Sage, the Hybrid was the only worthwhile option. Full Telekinetics/Lightning specs force you to become a turret, much like a Sniper/Gunslinger, but without the benefits of cover, CC immunity, or even close to the same damage output. Full Balance/Madness specs are incredibly weak outside of small engagements, as they offer little to no burst damage which is what kills people in organized PvP fights. If your opponents have almost no healing, then Balance does very well, but that's a terrible thing to hope for going in to each and every fight.

 

I'm fine with the potential loss of "number inflating aoe damage" if they address just how poorly designed the Pure DPS trees are. The hybrid spec was born because of just how awful they are, now we're being left with two skills trees that should have never made it out of beta.

[Zunayson]

I'm ranged and I should hit just as hard as a melee! LOL why play a melee then? Melee should always hit harder...

 

To be honest, now you know how Operatives feel. Guess what happens when Bioware kills all the classes? Nobody ever died!

[Saerol]

I'm ranged and I should hit just as hard as a melee! LOL why play a melee then? Melee should always hit harder...

 

To be honest, now you know how Operatives feel. Guess what happens when Bioware kills all the classes? Nobody ever died!

 

Melee should hit harder based on what? Their need to reach a target? I would agree with you if all melee classes did not have gap closers or stealth, but that isn't the case. Ranged DPS requires far more setup than simply "get close to the target", you need positioning, spacial awareness and targets who aren't running in and out of LOS.

 

I played an Operative at release (didn't take it to BM, as I knew they were going to be nerfed and got sick of Huttball 24/7), and my brother currently plays a BM Scoundrel, they still do a ton of damage and when they play their role are incredibly effective. Operatives/Scoundrels are not a front line assist train brawler, they're are a "get behind the opposing group and pressure the hell out of their support classes" role. Don't try to justify changes to one class because of changes to another.

 

You're clearly not familiar with playing a Sorc/Sage at endgame, and have nothing to contribute to this thread.

[Zunayson]

Melee should hit harder based on what? Their need to reach a target? I would agree with you if all melee classes did not have gap closers or stealth, but that isn't the case. Ranged DPS requires far more setup than simply "get close to the target", you need positioning, spacial awareness and targets who aren't running in and out of LOS.

 

I played an Operative at release (didn't take it to BM, as I knew they were going to be nerfed and got sick of Huttball 24/7), and my brother currently plays a BM Scoundrel, they still do a ton of damage and when they play their role are incredibly effective. Operatives/Scoundrels are not a front line assist train brawler, they're are a "get behind the opposing group and pressure the hell out of their support classes" role. Don't try to justify changes to one class because of changes to another.

 

You're clearly not familiar with playing a Sorc/Sage at endgame, and have nothing to contribute to this thread.

 

And ranged have KBs and kiting. See what I did there? They essentially have no gap closers since ranged have gap makers. Subtracting that out of this equation, you are left with only the fact that ranged have an advantage of ranged, and melees don't.

 

So why play a melee?

 

Ranged requires fare less positioning, because a melee is not affecting the posistion of the range. It's the other way around. Say two sorcs are hitting on each other in melee range. Really, I wouldn't waste a KB based on that, unless there was some type of terrain to break LoS, but then... neither... can attack.

 

Melee need to posistion themselves so that they won't get KBed as far, for example. Ranged don't, and posistioning can't really stop a leap, unless breaking LoS, to where the sorc... can't do damage...

 

Sorry, don't use sorc as an example, they're easy mode. Arsenal mercs are also easymode to do well, but to play to its full potential, the player needs to be at least decent at the class.

 

Use a sniper, since people say they're the hardest.

 

So why play a melee? You are putting yourself at a disadvantage with no advantage. Without an advantage, there is no point to play a melee. There needs to be a trade off. Like... More damage...

Edited March 17, 2012 by Zunayson

[JBloom]

You're posing this theoretical exercise as a 1v1 type thing. This game is about teamplay.

[Zunayson]

The only reason melee and ranged should have the same damage is if Ranged couldn't kite a melee. Then, ranged would always be able to damage at range, and a melee could damage at ranged because of said gap closer.

 

Unfortunately, ranged have gap creators, so gap closers sort of... get cancelled out. Especially since many ranged classes have snares and stuns in addition to KBs, you end up not enough gap closers.

 

In beta (Or alpha, really), Force Charge was on a 6 second cooldown. I miss that >.<

[Hannikohl]

Soo Bioware, can you tell me how i can heal my target getting burst dmg without my cast time reduction?

[fungihoujo]

I was thinking being able to do an instant 3k damage very 6 seconds provided the proc was up was OP- I mean, as a sorc, you could easily do 10k damage in like, 12 seconds!

 

Compare that to a pyro who can do 15k in 3 seconds.

 

Oh, but, right, sorcs do more damage cuz they have a dot dealing 300dps on the enemy team, so after a few minutes, provided nobody heals, their overwhelming damage should knock out the other side.

 

 

Well, at least they're making the lightning tree not complete garbage to make up for the nerf... oh, wait, nope- still garbage damage and immobility. Might as well go marauder for in combat stealth, immunity to damage, resolve ignoring root and gap closer every 12 sec and dots that actually do damage.

[MightyHalo]

 

 

Well, at least they're making the lightning tree not complete garbage to make up for the nerf... oh, wait, nope- still garbage damage and immobility. Might as well go marauder for in combat stealth, immunity to damage, resolve ignoring root and gap closer every 12 sec and dots that actually do damage.

 

Make a Mara and get back with us in a couple weeks.

[xNear]

Oh god change nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

qqqqqqqqqqqqq

[fungihoujo]

Make a Mara and get back with us in a couple weeks.

 

Already did, when the whines started I figured BW would cave- it's kinda fun, being able to rip apart any class 1v1 with ease, and I love being 30% health, charging someone at 100% and taking them out.

[Varcado]

I'm just glad I always played madness and now all the hybrid bads are gonna suck and I'm gonna stand out as the server ******

[Blasktrzask]

First off, all those crying 'I'm rolling Mara/Sent', you're making yourself invalid by announcing yourself as a FOTM PvPer.

 

 

They should actually learn how to play 18 binds instead of 4 and they should learn how to build DPS as Mara with is the hardest in whole game.

No problem for me, they will feed me on WZ's. Still 90% of Maruders are just bad players

[elorei]

Why does everyone think sorcs just use one button? Is it because 5 of their attacks all look like lightning or something?

 

I respecced my sorc to pure heals already, before any nerfs, because they do crap...CRAP damage. Like, less than any of my other characters, including my pure tank spec guardian. Way less.

 

Sure, in the under 50 bracket they have pretty numbers at the end, from all of that AoE that isnt killing anyone, but in the 50+ bracket, against people with decent mitigation, the sorc sucks as a damage dealer.

 

My vanguard: Destroys what I target. Currently specced as a HiB spammer, and its insane.

 

My scoundrel: HA! This one is hilarious. I sneak behind the enemy, and kill the sorcs before they can get a heal off. I can eat their bubble in one attack.

 

My shadow: This class is gonna get nerfed, I can feel it coming. I won't even go into why, it should be obvious. It has been fun, but I won't count on it staying this way.

 

My merc: I built it all crazy as a hybrid, I can heal AND spam tracers. It is pretty awesome.

 

My guardian: Now playing pure tank spec. Decent damage with almost no burst, but I survive a long time. And folks saying shields are worthless? They aren't. I drank the koolaid, too; but shields are actually pretty damn useful. I sometimes make him into a sweep bombing madman but the sustained DPS isn't that great. In tank spec though, I am a beast, and let's not forget huttball...or should I just go ahead and call it guardian ball.

 

Of my lvl 50s, the sorc is the weakest. Easily. It is like a different game. It makes for an ok healer, I guess, since force seems a lot easier to manage than the other resources for other classes.

[_Kayko_]

I was thinking being able to do an instant 3k damage very 6 seconds provided the proc was up was OP- I mean, as a sorc, you could easily do 10k damage in like, 12 seconds!

 

Compare that to a pyro who can do 15k in 3 seconds.

 

Oh, but, right, sorcs do more damage cuz they have a dot dealing 300dps on the enemy team, so after a few minutes, provided nobody heals, their overwhelming damage should knock out the other side.

 

 

Well, at least they're making the lightning tree not complete garbage to make up for the nerf... oh, wait, nope- still garbage damage and immobility. Might as well go marauder for in combat stealth, immunity to damage, resolve ignoring root and gap closer every 12 sec and dots that actually do damage.

 

Sorcs do more damage cause most when wee little level 20's got a 1/4 health tracer missile to the face or a full to dead Backstab/stabby stab/stabber stab staby stab combo in the back and realized that "Oh Crap! everything that touches us hurts REALLY BAD!! Gota play smart"

 

Sages/Sorcs don't often have the choice to other then to run away doing whatever they can to put out that last bit of damage. We are typically the first to be in combat and the last to get out of it. That is the reason we end up with more damage.

 

Guess what?? Sorcs/sages will be even doing more overall damage now cause when you kill that sorc/sage, you have no reason to cleanse the DoTs cause you can just do your meditation (quick healing/resource gaining ability) or whatever without it getting interrupted. A lot of the damage you see is pointless damage that is self healed by anyone out of combat.

[oldshatterhand]

Are you freaking kidding me? Sorc/sage was ridiculously OP, why do you think more then 50% of the population rolls one? Now you will just be in line with other classes.

 

Want to see a class that was killed by the patch? Check operative or bodyguard merc.

[Remdo]

Heureka! The moment we all non sorcs been waiting for, a please dont nerf me sorc thread <3

[sneroplex]

I've played full Balance, different kinds of Hybrid, and now am currently playing full Telekinetic. I'm valor rank 37 and I never had trouble topping out damage in any of the spec's, and I don't have a problem going 1v1 against others but some players certainly dominate me from time to time. I feel Balance is the best 1v1 spec but I don't like the lack of burst... Hybrid is great but I don't like relying on procs all the time, so I am currently enjoying Telekinetic because I can put out a steady stream of burst against single targets, I actually think full TK build is quite viable for 1v1.

 

I think the removal of the PoM proc for TK Wave is a bit much, maybe doubling the cooldown or something like that would be more reasonable...

 

I don't think this breaks our class, IMO it's still perfectly viable in all situations, but the fact that it affects so many players style and rotation is kinda lame, even though I'm not Hybrid anymore I feel for you guys because this is the kind of thing that can completely turn players off of a class and a game.

 

In the end we all knew a nerf was coming, I guess I'm not surprised it was heavy-handed as this.

[Caeliux]

Our abilities weren't strong or overpowered, it was our ability to use them while being mobile that made us great. (not OP, but decent)

 

You seriously have no clue what you are talking about.

 

Come to my server and play a BattleMaster Sorc or even a Sage, and you tell me if they are not one of the most strongest classes in the game hands down.

 

A no Cooldown Whirlwind.

 

Dots.

 

Burst.

 

Bubble.

 

Mobility.

 

Snares.

 

Stuns.

 

Range.

 

Not to mention more than 1 in the Wazone at the same time.

 

My point is just because you think they are not powerful, does not mean when 5 of you are all grouped up isn't a big deal?

 

Global nerfs happen in mmo's due to high amount of population of gamers playing one class.

 

Welcome to playing mmo's.