1.2 Patch Notes for us!

[sanctified]

No one who spec'd for main tanking ever put points into thrown gauntlet anyway, so where exactly is the loss?

[Dirtysolutions]

I think that was his point (though he may not have communicated it in the best way). Bio has stated that all DPS specs are supposed to be within 5% of each other.

 

The confusion is not really confusion. It's ignorance. in spite of what Bio has said, In spite of the COMPLETE LACK OF REAL DATA to prove otherwise, people have been maintaining an immense level of ignorance about the whole issue. While being ignorant isn't a bad thing, it's the sheer fact that they are acting like it's FACT. That's whats causing the confusion.

 

Thank you.

[Heith]

i dont even play my juggernaut anymore. i rerolled assassin and its so fun. i can be tank spec and still do good damage. i can tank anything. force regen instead of building up rage is absolutely awesome and makes it much more hassle free to play how i want. i cant even tell you how bad an immortal jugg is compared to a darkness assassin. my recommendation to all of you is to reroll. assassin is everything you wish your juggernaut was.

[Bastus]

i dont even play my juggernaut anymore. i rerolled assassin and its so fun. i can be tank spec and still do good damage. i can tank anything. force regen instead of building up rage is absolutely awesome and makes it much more hassle free to play how i want. i cant even tell you how bad an immortal jugg is compared to a darkness assassin. my recommendation to all of you is to reroll. assassin is everything you wish your juggernaut was.

 

I'm sad to say I agree. It's no wonder the population of Sorcs and Sins is so high, they're less hassle. You crank out the damage, then step back and regen. Having to use a basic attack to generate 2 rage when most of your best attacks require 4-5 is definitely a handicap.

 

I knew Jugs had issues the day someone chose a worse geared Sin to tank for HM FE, then proceeded to bash my aoe tanking ability. It took me 20 runs (literally) for my chestpiece, so I clearly had the experience, but nope.

[_Zorth_]

No one who spec'd for main tanking ever put points into thrown gauntlet anyway, so where exactly is the loss?

 

Anyone who specced for main tanking took the 14/27 route.. since Immortal is total crap. Still is, even worse.. 14/27 is gone, Juggernaut tanking is gone.

[Terrestrial]

This is crazy. Just crazy.

 

So assassins and marauders are the PvP breadwinners. Sorcs, Juggs, etc. get relegated to lesser status and we continue to pay $15 a month for someone else to tell us what to play.

 

Remember before the game was out how Bioware promised that every class would be viable and would not need to spec into particular roles? Wow, that got old for them fast apparently.

 

I guess the game beta continues into Patch 1.2.

[squallNCloud]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=372250

 

I feel the same way and maybe have a way to bring jug/immortal tanks back...and yes i believe Sin tanks are best in the game due to there HIGH DPS. Which jugs can too if the spec and gear in a way that gives the same DPS as a Sin tank does...which with what I hear isn't comparable lol....But I still seem to do alright with my tank and only finished 2 HM's since I hit 50 a day ago. Healer and I also 2 maned the first boss in BP HM....which I don't think is hard....but a new 50 with my current gear/spec.....call me a liar and i'll try and post a stream of a fight with my current gear lol!

[Calagari]

Vengeance:

 

Comments on the changes:

Well before I start I have to caveat that as I don't have a level 50 on the PTS I can only speculate as to how the changes will play out, and I mostly play a Vengeance Jugg so will stick to what I know. It may be that they play out better / worse than I expect, we will have to see. Now that my disclaimer is out the way...

 

Also apologies for posting such a long post into what is essentially a Rage Jugg thread, but apparently all Jugg comments on the patch have to go here.

 

The good:

Disruption and Intimidating Roar cost 0 rage. This is a straight up buff, although not a huge one it means that Disruption will always be available if off CD; and Intimidating Roar synergises with Deafening Defence (assuming the CD reduction has not been removed).

Ravage is uninterruptable. Although this has no real downside, Ravage is still of dubious benefit, all it really means is that opponents will now have to move away rather than use any other form of avoidance. I am not sure if it can be used as a way of avoiding being CCd whilst still causing damage? If so, then it is of positive benefit in PvP (i.e. opponents may blow CCs), but potentially very difficult to use effectively... maybe when defending a door/turret?

 

Vicious Throw can be used from 30%. This is a welcome change, adding some significant DPS to Vengeance (especially with the Savagery critical chance bonus - which should pretty much always be up).

 

The bad:

Enraged Defence is a aggro reduction tool with a 4 Rage cost, plus a minor heal (3% max, or somewhere between 360 and 600) once per sec when wounded, but at the cost of 1 Rage per heal (and potentially extra aggro reduction - not sure on this one). So why is this a bad?

Well for Vengeance the aggro reduction is useful (for Immortal it is a potential nightmare) even at a 4 Rage cost, but the heal seems potentially dangerous for a DPS spec. Assuming the heal is about 400, that is roughly the same as a single white hit from pretty much anything, but not other Vengeance DoTs. So it is a constant drain on Rage that cannot easily be controlled to mitigate some damage (it won't really heal unless you are getting a very low ticking DoT), and it has some serious potential to screw up our rotations. However is likely to "heal" about 3600-6000 health for 10 Rage (plus the 4 for the aggro reduction initiation = 14). That is about the same as a good medpack (maybe a bit better) for a full rage bar plus some over 10 seconds. So it is a Rage eating monster of an ability, and we only survive really by out-damaging opponents (and using CC / interrupts), and the damaging component of which will be heavily impacted by this Rage eater (it could be eating 3 Rage in 2 GCD - or to put it another way eating every Sundering Assault on its own). But we do get an extra defensive bonus (7.5-15% damage reduction) tied to it - which may help. and it should keep us standing longer...

 

I am not sure that I can see how this will work in practice - I am guessing that in groups and Ops it will be good (use Sundering Assault until someone grabs aggro off you), otherwise - really not sure. But I suspect that it is not going to save you if get neck deep and are looking for a "I win" (or "I survive") button.

 

So is it bad? Only time and testing will tell.

 

The ugly:

This "free" passive will be basically the same as the old Force Charge in PvE - but you cannot be attacked by the mob during your leap, and Pommel Strike will work rather than Savage Kick. This impacts the basic rotation on weak/standard mobs as you cannot open with Force Charge->Savage Kick on one, and follow with Smash->Pommel Strike on the next and expect them both to go down. Savage Kick is now limited solely to use after a Chilling Scream, or if you have Stagger and time it correctly.

In PvP, this will cause Resolve bars to fill more often as Juggernauts entering combat will 1/2 fill a Resolve bar (at least according to the forums - I have never measured it)... but Marauders won't. On the plus side it does mean that Juggernauts will actually get into melee range before being CCd / knocked back.

 

However crash partially negates the Unstoppable talent, as a stunned opponent cannot attack or CC you - which is what Unstoppable was helping with (i.e. 20% damage resist, and immune to CC for 4 seconds - 1.5 of which are flight time). So for Vengeance it is overall ugly.

 

Tier 1:

There is now only one talent selection at T1 that is really useful / required for a DPS tree like Vengeance and that it Single Sabre Mastery - which is now almost mandatory for all Juggernauts. The other abilities are "optional" (i.e. not adding very much but required to advance in the tree). Stagger is really a PvP only talent - it has essentially no use in PvE, mostly because the mobs really don't run away from you and it is not extending the stun. Anyway in PvP, with Crash built in, we now get a 2 second stun (which probably covers travel (GCD) and the start of 1 strike), so our opponent is probably still there when we land... unless their Resolve is full - which might well be because all Juggernauts will be pumping up opponents Resolve every time they enter combat. So Stagger might mean that they won't have gone as far when their Resolve is maxed out (i.e. 1 second or 0.5 seconds of movement as Stagger should Immobilise them for 0.5/1 sec of our flight time/GCD)? And so we will (maybe) be able to slow them (Chilling Scream) when we land. In essence don't expect to be able to be a "goalie" or a Charge -> Push -> Charge scorer in Huttball as easily.

 

Tier 2:

Unchanged - still a bit uninspiring, but Unyielding might be useful for Enraged Defence.

 

Tier 3:

Again unchanged, but Shien now feels weaker (it is unchanged, but now the Immortal tree can do 50% of the "extra" damage we can, it feels like we have been gimped - weird but true). Also Unstoppable feels weakened by Crash (as noted above). Draining Scream is still somewhat weak for the talent point cost (i.e. the DoT is quite low - I know it all adds up, but it is still too low).

 

Tier 4:

Vengeance is still good, and Deadly Reprisal is still situational and weak - but potentially useful for Enrage Defence. However Ruin has now become somewhat redundant. It is now a +1 rage generator in Shien and that is about all - we have no bonuses to boost Smash damage in the tree at all (Decimate having been moved to Rage tree). Ruin now feels completely out of place. It would be better if it were removed and a talent to improve Impale or Ravage were added. In fact if Ruin was removed then the (Sundering Assault->Impale->Force Scream->Sundering Assault->Shatter->Ruin) repeat chain would be broken (which can continue pretty much forever if you have Enraged sunder) and Ravage would suddenly need to be slotted in again.

 

Tier 5:

Savagery, Impale and Eviscerate (DoTs still a bit weak) all unchanged and Huddle has gone, which I am actually fine with. Ok I will miss the endurance (which incidentally I think should be added back into the Immortal tree as a T2 talent like many of other AC trees have), but Intercede is a pain to use and the damage reduction by the time you have switched targets, Interceded, Taunted, and switched targets again is on a pretty short duration. However a buffed Deafening Defence which synergises with Enraged Defence (extra damage reduction) as long as you have buckets of Rage - and the talent does not lose any of its previous goodness as far as I am aware!

 

Tier 6:

It seems that Vengeance are supposed to use Ravage (despite the fact that it is of dubious value in PvP without an Immobilise, and is generally considered to be a DPS reduction in PvE) as Rampage is in the tree and high in the tree (almost as if Ravage were a good ability to use). However it now gives us extra Rage when it triggers (+2, which is not exactly impressive, but it could occur as often as every 9 seconds) and yet Ravage currently fits very badly into our level 50 rotation (it is a DPS reduction for full 31pt builds) and does not have any other synergistic talents in the tree (Ravager is the only one and that is outside the Vengeance tree). Now this would change if Ruin was removed from the tree, as Smash would become far more situational for Vengeance rather than part of the rotation - rather like Sweeping Slash is currently. Sundering Throw I can't get too excited about - on the plus side it allows us to use Shatter almost straight off (once we get to melee range anyway), but then once we are in melee it is basically useless. It seems to me that unless the talent also reduced the minimum range, or was lower in the tree it is simply not a particularly great talent. It is essentially 2 talent points for the ability to open with Force Charge->Shatter. Maybe it will prove more useful in PvP than I am giving it credit for...

 

Tier 7:

Unchanged, and hence Shatter is still too slow with the DoT damage. It could at least be fast enough not to get cut short by a new Shatter.

 

Rage T1

Ravager reduces the CD of Ravage and increases the damage of Ravage (4% per pt)... which should potentially mean that Ravage will no longer be a DPS loss (though with only a 4% damage increase don't hold your breath). It has no synergy with the Rage tree, but with Rampage it does have synergy with the Vengeance tree (it also has synergy with Carnage Marauders - which is why it is currently in Rage I guess). If Vengeance are supposed to use Ravage, then this talent is a must have and so should be located in the Vengeance tree for Juggernauts. In addition the loss of the CD reduction for Force Choke reduces the talents utility for Immortal and Rage Juggernauts significantly. Now that Decimate has been moved to the Rage tree (where it synergises better tbh), it means that Vengeance Juggs are less likely to take Decimate and also means that Ruin in the Vengeance tree becomes obsolete. Finally Malice is unchanged, but was of debatable usefulness given Savagery's critical bonus to Force Scream - and now that Smash and Ruin are less tied to the spec, Malice becomes even less useful (unless you are speccing a hybrid Veng/Rage I guess)

 

Rage T2

The change from Force Alacrity to Overpower probably reduces our DPS slightly as Force Scream availability drops, assuming that it was specced for. I guess Overpower may be useful - and potentially better then taking Rampage if specced for critical hits (15%+base 35% = 50%; rage refund = 3 in Shien); against 30% chance of getting 2 Rage. The other elements are unchanged.

 

Immortal T1

The shifting around of Battle Cry and Quake points seems to be directed at making Battle Cry more attractive - and reducing the relative attractiveness of Quake for non-tanks. It is now more likely that DPS will not spec Quake - assuming they did before. On the plus side Battle Cry is now more affordable (but still only really useful at combat initiation).

 

Immortal T3

The reduction of Heavy Handed to a 1 pt talent actually helps Hybrid specs alot, and makes a Vengeance/Immortal spec more viable.

 

Immortal T4

Hybrids can now make an 18 Immortal / 23 Vengeance that gets Sonic Barrier, and Force Grip, as well as Impale and Unstoppable. This makes for a potentially nice Hybrid spec opening up - but it remains to be seen as to how effective it will actually be in practice.

 

Suggested changes to Vengeance Tree:

 

• BW could/should accept that AC "common" trees cannot and should not be common (i.e. match precisely) other than in concept (i.e. not in detail). There is no AC swap - and should not be - so there should be no need for "common" trees. This allows for modifications to be made based on the best things for each AC separately, rather than trying to balance the trees between two ACs and thus having talents that make more sense elsewhere in it.

 

The other option for the "common" tree is that it provides more general / utility abilities, rather than a spec of its own - but I think Rage Juggs and Marauders would get very upset with this!

 

• Move Stagger into Immortal, or back to Rage, or keep it in Vengeance - but give Vengeance a DPS bonus talent, such as a critical bonus (i.e. 5% per point, 3pts max) for Ravage. Alternatively swap Ravager and Stagger (Vengeance has far more synergy with Ravage than Rage does, but I am aware of the Marauder side with Carnage having a use for Ravager).

 

• Add a full Sunder effect to Improved Sundering Assault (i.e. ISA causes 20% extra damage when a full stack of Sunder has already been applied) - maybe as a linked talent in T2.

 

• Replace Ruin with a passive ability that causes Impale and Ravage to have additional Armour Penetration (+30%) when the opponent is under the effects of Sunder Armour (maybe after 4 stacks), or provide Shien with a smaller passive Armour Penetration bonus (20%).

 

• Make Pooled Hatred controllable with a trigger ability (like Marauder Frenzy abilities)

 

• Scale all DoTs better, and modify Shatter's duration (i.e. Shatter should not cut-off the previous Shatter damage).

 

• Have Rampage add an Immobilise chance to Ravage (20% per point)

 

• Change the new Rampage rage mechanic so that Ravage provides Rage when we make each strike rather than 2 Rage on Rampage proc. Ideally this we would gain 1 Rage from each of the first two quick hits and another 2 Rage from the last bigger hit... meaning we are less likely to skip it. This means you gain up to 4 Rage off a Ravage, but have to actually let the strikes land (it shouldn't matter if they miss or are defended, you should still gain the Rage). This potentially synergises better with Enraged Defence as a damaging Rage generation mechanic complements an aggro dumping, Rage eating, heal mechanic.

 

• Improve the new Ravage to make the damage increase on Ravage more appealing for the talent point cost.

 

• Consider modifying the mechanics that provide Vengeance with bonuses for being CCd as these are situational and out of the players control. Also as DPS, they have no utility in many group situations. Replace them with more group utility functions.

[OeSan]

List of Nerfs:

 

Force scream and Smash +3 sec to cd

 

aoe taunt CD nerfed (the talent that shortens it to 45 sec from 1 min is gone

 

Force choke nerf, the talent that shortens it to 47 sec from 1 min no longer does so

 

Crash, charge now has a 2 seconds stun, we already had a snare and an interrupt, this is only there to fill resolve, and once 2 Juggs jump on someone in pvp they will be immune. hutball is gonna suck for EVERYONE now.

 

Rage is losing 10% of its damage on smash, the +30% skill is now +20%.

 

 

And to top it off the rage tree now has the +20% smash dmg so marauders can do everything we do, only better.

======================================================

 

None of this is worth a heal that takes, as someone else put it, 14 rage. FOURTEEN.

I left out the work that rage juggs had to go through to re itemize their terrible enhancements. Yes you can get the new re itemized gear in 1.2 IF you kept your old enhancements that you thought were useless and would have to spend 30k ea just to remove and have them take up room in your bank.... likely? no.

[Kyllum]

what i mainly meant was i dont see juggernauts being very useful in 1.2... after 1.2 wont be close to the best dps and certainly not the best tanks... so what i meant by 1.2 destroys juggernauts i meant that they basically made the class to be useless when you compare it to others

[sithgreyguard]

so i am level 30ish and i am all in the immortal tree. i tank and i dont pvp with this character. my damage is so so. for pure tankers are there any good changes? also i plan on staying in the immortal tree say maybe 33 /7/0 or 31/10/0 Edited March 23, 2012 by sithgreyguard

[Saraphic]

I don't know about you guys, but I have been leaving rampage out of my pvp/pve vengeance builds but will now be including it. With the changes to ravager and rampage, this essentially makes a clipped ravage acceptable to use for PvE because you are no longer affected by an opportunity cost for utilizing clipped ravage instead sundering assault or just assult - ie you are not losing rage by using ravage when rampage procs. Without numerical evidence, it cannot be certain but this looks like a slight dps buff between the changes to these two talents. Edited March 23, 2012 by Saraphic

[Kyllum]

sad day

[OeSan]

Someone in one of the many closed threads (thanks bioware for your only responce to our fury being closed threads) posted a direct quote where bioware thought juggs needed a buff in dps and anti kiting mechanics. THIS is that buff? I will be unsubbing if this insult goes live. Not because I couldn't still play the class in its nerfed condition, and not because I couldn't enjoy another ac; but because this is just as I said, an insult. Edited March 24, 2012 by OeSan

[Bastus]

Someone in one of the many closed threads (thanks bioware for your only responce to our fury being closed threads) posted a direct quote where bioware thought juggs needed a buff in dps and anti kiting mechanics. THIS is that buff? I will be unsubbing if this insult goes live. Not because I couldn't still play the class in its nerfed condition, and not because I couldn't enjoy another ac; but because this is just as I said, an insult.

 

Exactly how I feel. Many of us don't feel like this class is viable for anything other than being a meat shield. I didn't make this class with having a pocket healer with me all the time. I want to be able to do some solitary and useful DPS damage too. Morons calling us a tank only class need to take a look at Sins. We have the exact same amount of Defensive and Offensive talent trees, but apparently we're the tanking class. We don't have any 1 on 1 stuns, and our aoe stun wears off upon damage. Giving us one 3 second stun would make ravage somewhat useful in combat, but no. Giving Ravage a rooting ability would help us, but no, apparently Marauders needed it more, what with their superior offensive capabilities already.

 

1 stun or 1 root would help immensely for Veng. And this new rage based healing ability just sounds like trouble. We already have enough abilities sucking away at rage, why spend another 14 total rage for heals that aren't significant?

 

What the hell happened to the "Anti kiting and defensive buffs" we so desperately needed? How about rooting ravage, and increasing our shield chance to 15%? It's like we're built for PVE, but they don't seem to realize that PVP is the issue here.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Bastus

[Midichlorien]

I will be unsubbing if this insult goes live. Not because I couldn't still play the class in its nerfed condition, and not because I couldn't enjoy another ac; but because this is just as I said, an insult.

 

Already did and returned to LotRO. It's amazing to realize that such an old f2p game is able to develope tons of synergies between half a dozen skills and 5 traits, where BW just fails with 250 million dollars.

 

PS: Maybe it's a new experience for MMO developers that people don't want to wait for half a year or more after release until the game and/or their class is "finished". Maybe I am spoiled, but all I have to say is: "Deal with it!".

Edited March 24, 2012 by Midichlorien

[Sir-Coffee]

Someone in one of the many closed threads (thanks bioware for your only responce to our fury being closed threads) posted a direct quote where bioware thought juggs needed a buff in dps and anti kiting mechanics. THIS is that buff? I will be unsubbing if this insult goes live. Not because I couldn't still play the class in its nerfed condition, and not because I couldn't enjoy another ac; but because this is just as I said, an insult.

 

Agreed.

[sithgreyguard]

Already did and returned to LotRO. It's amazing to realize that such an old f2p game is able to develope tons of synergies between half a dozen skills and 5 traits, where BW just fails with 250 million dollars.

 

PS: Maybe it's a new experience for MMO developers that people don't want to wait for half a year or more after release until the game and/or their class is "finished". Maybe I am spoiled, but all I have to say is: "Deal with it!".

 

so lame. i would never quit over one broke class . plus they could still change things they did say its not final.

Edited March 24, 2012 by sithgreyguard

[Xelosi]

These changes are really just a band-aid on a bullet wound.

 

*sigh*

[Midichlorien]

so lame. i would never quit over one broke class . plus they could still change things they did say its not final.

 

 

Not lame, just clever and knowing my options. I have 2 lvl 50 Chars here and 5 (well equipped) lvl 75 Chars in LotRO and 2 (not so well equipped) max lvl Chars in WoW.

 

I'm able to "plan" and canalize my addiction with the little side effect, that I am actually able to sanction bad developer performance. You vote with the giving of money or with the denial of money in this world and it's the only behaviour, that actually has some effect.

[bananaface]

server populations dropping every day.

 

guess why...

 

OT:

from a rage pvp pov:

 

keep things as they are on live.

I do more dmg but I can also take the least so it's a fair trade off.

it also gives a unique playstyle where you have to play smart in order to be usefull and survive.

 

losing shockwave stacks on occassions happens (not that often) but it gives others a way to counter us.

 

dropping the dmg with force alacrity nerf (especially sustained) and giving some survivability (not that enraged defender does anything with its rediculous cost and low heal) in return just leads to homogenizing the classes and specs.

 

if i wanted a balance between dmg and survivability i would've played a different class/spec.

 

there has already been enough said about how bad crash is if it fills the resolve bar and/or is passive.

 

details about the impact of the force alacrity nerf have been given already aswell.

 

 

I'm not going into the immortal or vengeance changes, cause i havent played them enough recently to give any proper feedback on them, so I'll let others do that.

[arkzehhh]

Overall the changes seem decent (though I don't think I'll be training crash since I want to avoid setting off stuns.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

- We got a nice new shiny CD that heals us as we take damage (which is absolutely amazing).

- Rage wasn't changed significantly, but now vicious slash has a purpose and obliterate has a snare (woot!)(plus the 3 points in decimate are now in rage so we can put those into immortal and spec for intimidate).

- Through Passion sounds awesome for rage juggs

- Vengeance got some a shiny in the form of a better rampage (which is probably going to be worth taking over unstoppable) though the change to deafening defense seems like it will hurt it's relative survivability (unless we get the 4% damage reduction AND increased defense *shrug* I have to hit the PTS to see)

- Immortal got some early bloat removed which is nice, and a significant threat boost.

 

On the whole, fantastic patch though vengeance seems to have taken a bit of a hit with the deafening defense change and the move of Decimate, it's going to be tough for the spec to keep the 7/34/0 spec (and 7/31/3 doesn't seem that feasible without losing good talents).

 

Rage, on the other hand, got a much needed survivability boost and definitely seems like a nice go-to come patch. Especially since I'll be vicious slashing once more , also, with the change to Relentless fury we'll be able to set up MORE smash bombs.

 

 

EDIT (3/21/11):

 

Confirmations from the TR:

 

Vengeance:

- Deafening Defense is now in Tier 5 of the tree and provides its current effect (4% damage reduction and 15 seconds off of Threatening Scream)

- Huddle is gone

- The saber throw talent is a T6 talent

 

Immortal:

- Relevant math on the shield from scream is on page 19 of this thread (links to the TS forums)

 

Rage:

- Decimate is a 2 point talent now

 

 

Other:

- The heal will consume 14 rage over it's duration

 

Still things that have yet to be confirmed:

 

- Crash is automatically trained

 

Nerf incoming from a patch soon after, Juggs shouldnt be capable of the dmg they do, and i have one before some scrub try's talking otherwise.

[lordofdamornin]

Not lame, just clever and knowing my options. I have 2 lvl 50 Chars here and 5 (well equipped) lvl 75 Chars in LotRO and 2 (not so well equipped) max lvl Chars in WoW.

 

I'm able to "plan" and canalize my addiction with the little side effect, that I am actually able to sanction bad developer performance. You vote with the giving of money or with the denial of money in this world and it's the only behaviour, that actually has some effect.

 

Clever? No, it's called keeping more than one safety blanket, Linus.

 

You keep saying that you are unsubbed, so why do you keep posting in here?

 

Wouldn't your time be better spent actually playing these *better* games, than wasting any time posting in the forums of this *bad,* and *unfinished* one?

 

You claim to have made a decision with your money, as you say. Great. Stand by it.

 

Riôt

[bananaface]

Nerf incoming from a patch soon after, Juggs shouldnt be capable of the dmg they do, and i have one before some scrub try's talking otherwise.

 

cuz jugg is a tank class right?

[Raycyst]

Is there a working talent calc with the upcoming changes anywhere?