Will Shadows Shine or Fall?

[AncientForce]

you people have no sense of 8 man premade comps and how it will function. This is evident from the responses i'm seeing.

 

if you literally think that shadows are shining, you need to re-consider your thoughts about the meta game.

 

shadow is a generalist, not a specialist. They aren't special for any reason whatsoever that another class doesn't do better. Whether this be survivability, mobility, damage, burst, or support.

 

shadows are great in 4 mans for the current state of PUB warzones. Shadows in tank spec is a pad stat class. Fluff damage really, an aoe that hits decently hard on an 8 second cooldown. Its snaring function is a pathetic 30% or something.

 

The only reason you are seeing tank shadows doing high damage is because they are better players than the people below them or simply in the action more.

 

I'm not saying that if your a good player you wont do well, i'm simply trying to explain that there is simply better class options to choose from when you get to pick out 8 people and not 4

 

It's pretty easy really. The teams with the best comps will win eventually. This will all get sorted out after ranked wz goes live.

 

1. When 1.2 comes out with pre-season ranked wz there will be a lot of mistakes and bugs. Class balance will be cried about. Teams that figure out how to play together earlier will do better even if comp isn't optimal.

2. When real ranked wz comes out, there will be a lot of mistakes and bugs. Class balance will be cried about. Teams that figure out how to play together earlier will do better even if comp isn't optimal.

3. When/if things ever stabilize, THEN min/maxing comps will become an issue and the comps with the best classes for each role may/may not win but will have the raw advantage. (Player skill is a huge factor).

 

As it stands right now, I agree that Tankassins are generalists. However, they do generally very well in those areas and that flexibility lets them be one of the best generalists in the game if played right. I think there will always be room in a competitive team for a generalist that plays very well. They are the wild card.

 

They may or may not be the star, but I hardly think they will be the worst class/spec out there to take to a ranked wz. If anything, they do really well at locking down a healer with enough survival to harass for extended periods of time. This effectively cancels out one of your opponent's healers with little maintenance.

 

We'll see. I love my Tankassin and hope they don't change it too much. If they do, I'll adapt.

[NeverRose]

He is right though. I've been playing PvP for years (GW/WAR/Ragnarok) and team of specialists beats a team of generalists.

 

 

Shadow is jack-of-all trades, which is good for some solo ganking and smallscale situations but not for competetive 8-man rated WZ.

 

Infil - Too squishy, burst easily negated.

 

Balance - Medicore CC, burst > dots. Always.

 

Kinetic - Not the best tankability, not the best CC among tanks, decent dmg BUT starved for force constantly.

 

 

In other words - There is no real niche for shadow in rated WZ.

[Xinika]

I'm trying to make a difference for the betterment of the game.. This is me helping.

 

I simply know what I'm talking about and people will realize it in a few months

 

This, really. Sometimes that *help* may seem antagonistic, but in reality is better for the longrun. We Shadows/Sins, are facing being sat down on the benches because other classes can fulfill our roles better. The small-scale situations will be tossed out the window and our ability to shine in group combat may wither.

 

The Dark Knight anyone? "The hero this city needs, not wants."

[aLLwOrLd_RB]

Jesus Powerr what crawled up your butt and today and died?

 

Where is the Powerr that likes helping people, makes threads about PvP, makes youtube videos showing others how it should be played, and the Powerr that has his own Stream?

 

This Powerr is a angry person arguing about the class he plays and says there is no way it can perform better than any other class when ranked matches comes.

 

I sense a contradiction from you and alot of madbro right now, I have nothing more to say to ya man until you shake your funk off.

 

Hope you calm down and take a deep breath, going be a long way till we play ranked matches, even then it should be alot of fun for all classes.

 

FIN

 

is it a funk? or a certain realization of things to come. You gotta respect a guys opinion who's been pvping for 12 years.

 

I wondered myself what the potential of the class would be against other "true pvpers" and how viable we would be in a rated situation...

 

Reading his post made me feel as though I had selected a Hunter again to play as my main for PvP... As awesome as hunters were 1v1, terrible in arenas...

[Tinmancreeping]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I play A KC shadow Full BM, Ive been KC since Day 1 of EA and it's the only "Spec" I like for pvp. As long as Bioware does not "adjust" the utility of shadow, we will always have a place. With that said I think Inf and Balance are going to suck in rated WZs.

 

As they are crap now too

[Caeliux]

In other words - There is no real niche for shadow in rated WZ.

 

You got jokes.

 

Serious

[NeverRose]

You got jokes.

 

Serious

 

 

You too.

 

No, really.

[Scudmungus]

Welcome to another Opinion Thread

 

Where folk trade personal opinions,

and defended them as fact.

 

 

Quality read, keep it up all!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Scudmungus

[Kunda]

Powerr, I've watched your stream on several occasions now and find one thing incredibly odd about this post. You made a mention of synergy extremely early in the post and then seemed to focus only on the Shadow/Sin's individual deficiencies.

 

Can you maybe shed some light about why you think Shadows will offer less utility and synergy in objective based warzones than say a Scrapper Scoundrel?

[omgwru]

It's really the generalist concept that makes KC shadows shine. Everyone has better versions of our tricks for the most part, but we have the whole kit, and when used effectively, is quite powerful.

 

There is *always* going to be a killer comp, it's the nature of things that are fluid. MMO's are constantly changing, and even the best maintenance isn't going to prevent FOTM's from occurring. Whining loudly will only put us into that cycle of nerfs and buffs, something I think we're better off without experiencing.

 

People who know pvp know the value of a a well played shadow. It may not be as easy for other players to pick up and do well, but I don't think our kit lacks anything, and has a lot of merits that other classes simply can't bring.

[SeanPoe]

Shadow's are currently the absolute strongest class for playing the objectives in my opinion.

 

On huttball they have (assuming kinetic spec):

• Sprint for running the ball and setting up knockbacks
  
• 5 seconds of near-full cc immunity for running the ball over fire (combined with sprint is ridiculous)
  
• The ability to stealth up behind players and then use a knockback into fire or off the ledges
  
• The ability to stealth and get ahead for passes
  
• The ability to grip players/ball carrier into fire
  
• guard/taunts for keeping the ball/healers alive
  
• Aoe-snare which is decent for keeping groups of players slowed
  
• Decent mid control because of stealth and a multitude of cc's
  

 

On Civil War they have (assuming infil spec):

• 15% base runspeed increase from talents plus sprint allows them to intercept the other teams cap on their "safe" node. 3 seconds of near-full CC-immunity and stealth makes them hard to peel.
  
• The ability to solo hold nodes for a ridiculous amount of time (double sap into out of stealth harassment until low hp, cloak+vanish, into double sap (use this time to heal up out of combat), into more out of stealth harassment.
  
• The best CC in the game for stopping repops from stopping node caps. When they speeder in (or run in from middle GY), sap them, if they use their cc-break just sap them again.
  
• Gaurds/taunts for keeping defenders alive until reinforcements can arrive
  
• Can work in tandem with other stealth classes to cap nodes that aren't adequately defended by using syncronized CC. Usually a good strategy if there's a big fight at another uncapped node, just send 2 stealth to the enemies capped node which will have 1-2 people defending it.
  

 

On Voidstar they have (assuming tank spec):

• Stealth to ninja cap doors and ninja defuse bombs (won't happen vs good teams but the option is still there)
  
• The ability to hold doors solo against multiple people trying to plant the bomb using a similar strategy as on civil war to buy time for defenders to respawn.
  
• Sprint plus 5 seconds of CC-immunity is great for stopping caps when you respawn
  
• Sprint to get over the gap in the bridge room and then stealth to get to the doors without the enemy team noticing you're over there
  
• Grapple to pull people to their death when they attempt to cross the bridge
  
• Stealth + knockback on the bridge for maximum lolz
  
• Can use 5 seconds of force/tech-immunity to try to defuse bombs even with multiple people there attempting to stop it
  
• AoE-snare is great for slowing clusters of people once they blow up a door
  

Edited March 15, 2012 by SeanPoe

[Tinmancreeping]

He is right though. I've been playing PvP for years (GW/WAR/Ragnarok) and team of specialists beats a team of generalists.

 

 

Shadow is jack-of-all trades, which is good for some solo ganking and smallscale situations but not for competetive 8-man rated WZ.

 

Infil - Too squishy, burst easily negated.

 

Balance - Medicore CC, burst > dots. Always.

 

Kinetic - Not the best tankability, not the best CC among tanks, decent dmg BUT starved for force constantly.

 

 

In other words - There is no real niche for shadow in rated WZ.

 

The Whole Point is to Win WZs not Epeen it up. In that reguard I play my Shadow KC objectively. Im always on the move bouncing around from obj to obj try to stop/delay any obj captures or scores. I feel a shadow tank does this best hands down. I know were squishy tanks thats why I only guard in certain situations. I understand the jack of all trades argument but I feel like if Biowares does not "adjust" our utility we will have a place in ranked WZs.

[Telemachos]

Infiltration shadow is about ganking- which for some people have no concept to make happen.

 

You lock down the target, feint so they pop their cooldowns followed by bursting them down.

 

If you think you are going to jump in the middle of 2-3 enemies and just wtfpwn them all- it's not going to happen. Infilitration shadows are oper/sorc counters. You are not going to burst down a tank unless you completely outgear them.

 

I think face-stab shadows are a joke and would prefer a real tank class any day of the week over a face-stab shadow.

[Scudmungus]

good stuff

 

Beholden, a quality post,

presented as acknowledged opinion,

supported at considerable effort to the poster.

 

No attacks, no laziness,

Simply an opinion,

Supported by the poster.

 

We could almost discuss the poster's opinion,

Making use of the support he has provided,

To form a rational debate.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2012 by Scudmungus

[Invictusthetaru]

The Whole Point is to Win WZs not Epeen it up. In that reguard I play my Shadow KC objectively. Im always on the move bouncing around from obj to obj try to stop/delay any obj captures or scores. I feel a shadow tank does this best hands down. I know were squishy tanks thats why I only guard in certain situations. I understand the jack of all trades argument but I feel like if Biowares does not "adjust" our utility we will have a place in ranked WZs.

 

You could make the argument that a good guardian has better mobility while spamming his aoe snare and hopping around, but with all the utility kinetic shadows have I'm surprised powerr thinks they will be obsolete.

 

You can read my post about my mini comparison between the 2 classes back a page.

[Xinika]

Beholden, a quality post,

presented as acknowledged opinion,

supported at considerable effort to the poster.

 

No attacks, no laziness,

Simply a point well supported personal opinion.

 

We could almost discuss the poster's opinion,

Making use of the support he has provided,

To form a rational debate.

 

 

 

The font colour... why...

[NeverRose]

The Whole Point is to Win WZs not Epeen it up. In that reguard I play my Shadow KC objectively. Im always on the move bouncing around from obj to obj try to stop/delay any obj captures or scores. I feel a shadow tank does this best hands down. I know were squishy tanks thats why I only guard in certain situations. I understand the jack of all trades argument but I feel like if Biowares does not "adjust" our utility we will have a place in ranked WZs.

 

 

I'm not saying you cannot perform well. But as far as competetive premades go....

 

I know how it is, it kinda reminds me of Magus/Engineer situation from WAR (Eventhough Shadow is definitely better than the latter).

 

Take Powerr for example. He is concerned about class niche, but it's not like he won't get spots in premade for ranked WZ's.

 

However, I think they should really revamp our trees quite drastically. Increase tankability+CC at the cost of dmg/stealth, improve infil;s survavibility goddamn it (Our supposedly main tree).

 

If we're talking about pugging and 1v1/1v2 situations, shadows are fine and dandy.

 

If we're talking about competetive 8-man premades (And this thread is all about it) they aren't.

[Caeliux]

Shadow's are currently the absolute strongest class for playing the objectives in my opinion.

 

On huttball they have (assuming kinetic spec):

• Sprint for running the ball and setting up knockbacks
  
• 5 seconds of near-full cc immunity for running the ball over fire (combined with sprint is ridiculous)
  
• The ability to stealth up behind players and then use a knockback into fire or off the ledges
  
• The ability to stealth and get ahead for passes
  
• The ability to grip players/ball carrier into fire
  
• guard/taunts for keeping the ball/healers alive
  
• Aoe-snare which is decent for keeping groups of players slowed
  
• Decent mid control because of stealth and a multitude of cc's
  

 

On Civil War they have (assuming infil spec):

• 15% base runspeed increase from talents plus sprint allows them to intercept the other teams cap on their "safe" node. 3 seconds of near-full CC-immunity and stealth makes them hard to peel.
  
• The ability to solo hold nodes for a ridiculous amount of time (double sap into out of stealth harassment until low hp, cloak+vanish, into double sap (use this time to heal up out of combat), into more out of stealth harassment.
  
• The best CC in the game for stopping repops from stopping node caps. When they speeder in (or run in from middle GY), sap them, if they use their cc-break just sap them again.
  
• Gaurds/taunts for keeping defenders alive until reinforcements can arrive
  
• Can work in tandem with other stealth classes to cap nodes that aren't adequately defended by using syncronized CC. Usually a good strategy if there's a big fight at another uncapped node, just send 2 stealth to the enemies capped node which will have 1-2 people defending it.
  

 

On Voidstar they have (assuming tank spec):

• Stealth to ninja cap doors and ninja defuse bombs (won't happen vs good teams but the option is still there)
  
• The ability to hold doors solo against multiple people trying to plant the bomb using a similar strategy as on civil war to buy time for defenders to respawn.
  
• Sprint plus 5 seconds of CC-immunity is great for stopping caps when you respawn
  
• Sprint to get over the gap in the bridge room and then stealth to get to the doors without the enemy team noticing you're over there
  
• Grapple to pull people to their death when they attempt to cross the bridge
  
• Stealth + knockback on the bridge for maximum lolz
  
• Can use 5 seconds of force/tech-immunity to try to defuse bombs even with multiple people there attempting to stop it
  
• AoE-snare is great for slowing clusters of people once they blow up a door
  

 

But to Powerr and the rest agreeing with him all that don't matter, Shadow will be useless and it will lose all them things you have posted. Even though all them things will still happen, it will suck compared to all the other classes.

 

Shame on you pointing out what a Shadow does in PvP, you should be flogged.

 

The class needs deleted when ranked matches comes, everyone needs to reroll to a sent or trooper heals, or don't even think about playing.

 

Right guys?

 

/end sarcasm

Edited March 15, 2012 by Caeliux

[Scudmungus]

The font colour... why...

 

Other than 'coz I liek it?'

 

- I can find my posts slightly quicker.

 

- I was raised by golden coloured Baboons.

 

...but I do not have to use it.

 

...nor do I always use it.

Meanwhile...

Edited March 15, 2012 by Scudmungus

[NeverRose]

Not useless, but definitely not THE BEST choice for premade.

 

Reading comprehension please ;]

[Internicio]

shadow is a generalist, ranked will be dominated by specialists

 

this (most likely)

[Astarica]

But to Powerr and the rest agreeing with him all that don't matter, Shadow will be useless and it will lose all them things you have posted. Even though all them things will still happen, it will suck compared to all the other classes.

 

Shame on you pointing out what a Shadow does in PvP, you should be flogged.

 

The class needs deleted when ranked matches comes, everyone needs to reroll to a sent or trooper heals, or don't even think about playing.

 

Right guys?

 

/end sarcasm

 

The post seems to assume the other team will be out to shut you down and specifically target your weakness. 2 Mercs in Centurion armor spamming Tracer Missiles on a single Assassin will almost always shut him down too. Anyone can talk about some idealized hypothetical scenario where your class gets instantly killed/neutralized, though even in such cases, Darkness Assassins are one of the hardest classes to neutralize since they've decent range (far better than any other melee), a 20s root breaker, Force Shroud, and a ton of survivality. Yes, you can still be shut down, but if something can shut down an Assassin it can shut down at least any other melee.

[KidMcClaren]

My main is a WH shadow that I have played extensively in both infil and KC spec.

 

Unfortunately the vast majority of what Powerr is saying is correct, at least about infil spec. They are too squishy and the burst simply doesn't provide enough to any group. Infil is highly ccable, and can only use their control in 1v1 situations. The other dps classes simply provide the same benefits without the drawbacks and have more utility.

 

That being said I think infil will be viable in the low levels of ranked play, and of course you'll see the odd extremely well played infil spec (or even balance?) in high level as one aware person with an interrupt and stealth can always be used in ranked play.

 

KC has become my preferred pvp spec. As far as this not being viable in ranked play, I can see how powerr arrived at this conclusion based on the abilities available to other tanks. However, simply having been so successful in this spec leads me to believe this area is much more gray than the state of infil.

 

Simply put a tank/healer combo is a tank/healer combo. I roll full KC in BM tank gear that has been "dps'ed out". I can out dps the other tanks that are rolling full tank mode. And I can outsurvive the hybrid "tanks" which are the most common vanguards and guardians.

 

Powerr went pretty deeply into showing what the other tanks can do the same or better than KC, but there are 3 things that we have that they don't.

 

KC still has Stealth, Vanish, and Force Sprint (breaks roots in KC) in addition to good defensive cd's, amazing self heals (I get the 75k heal medal in grindy matches), and a pull.

 

While KC may not become dominant in high level ranked play in it's current state, I think that it's still got a lot of potential to be quite useful. Of course that could just be the self preservationist in me .

[Powerr]

Powerr, I've watched your stream on several occasions now and find one thing incredibly odd about this post. You made a mention of synergy extremely early in the post and then seemed to focus only on the Shadow/Sin's individual deficiencies.

 

Can you maybe shed some light about why you think Shadows will offer less utility and synergy in objective based warzones than say a Scrapper Scoundrel?

 

Surely.

 

Both classes have stealth, however scoundrels do frontloaded burst damage compared to shadows periodic burst capability. When you stick a scoundrel on a healer, that healer is handled in seconds without backup. Lets use a mercenary for example. Shadows CANNOT solo a mercenary healer, therefore to have a shadow attacking healers is relatively pointless without aid. Scoundrels can single handedly lock down a healer, enabling other members of the team to focus other primary targets. This is a devastating advantage.

 

The next advantage is their ability to off heal. Every group needs a player who can off heal your main healers, if you already have a vanguard and guardian, why would you slot a shadow dps? He would be even moreso the primary focused target. Shadows are the squishiest class in the game in their dps specs, with the worst cooldowns as well.

 

Shadow Defensives:

Deflection- Increases your ranged and melee defenses (white damage) by 50% for 12 seconds. 2 minute cooldown

Resilience- Force and tech damage immunity for 3 seconds (can still be rooted/melee attack stunned) 60 second cooldown

 

Scoundrel Defensives

Defense Screen- 15 second absorb shield on 45sec cooldown compared to shadows 2 minute cooldown timer

Dodge- 3 second 100% defense chance 1min cooldown

 

 

The next advantage is the 7 second stun lock a scoundrel can do out of stealth, or 5.5 if you aren't using vanish. Shadows cannot use kick unless in stealth and if you do pop from stealth equates to 6 seconds of stun lock, 4 out of stealth on a very long cooldown (we all know how frustrating an extra second of stun is).

 

As far as synergy, the shadow doesnt specialize in doing damage immediately.

So think about this more in depth guys.

 

Sentinels do ramp up type damage

Scoundrels do frontloaded damage

Shadows do buildup damage

 

For those who aren't connecting the dots yet, to maximise killing targets perfectly you want a class that hits hard immediately, and a class that finishes. Sent with scoundrel is potentially the best melee setup for that.

[Invictusthetaru]

My main is a WH shadow that I have played extensively in both infil and KC spec.

 

Unfortunately the vast majority of what Powerr is saying is correct, at least about infil spec. They are too squishy and the burst simply doesn't provide enough to any group. Infil is highly ccable, and can only use their control in 1v1 situations. The other dps classes simply provide the same benefits without the drawbacks and have more utility.

 

That being said I think infil will be viable in the low levels of ranked play, and of course you'll see the odd extremely well played infil spec (or even balance?) in high level as one aware person with an interrupt and stealth can always be used in ranked play.

 

KC has become my preferred pvp spec. As far as this not being viable in ranked play, I can see how powerr arrived at this conclusion based on the abilities available to other tanks. However, simply having been so successful in this spec leads me to believe this area is much more gray than the state of infil.

 

Simply put a tank/healer combo is a tank/healer combo. I roll full KC in BM tank gear that has been "dps'ed out". I can out dps the other tanks that are rolling full tank mode. And I can outsurvive the hybrid "tanks" which are the most common vanguards and guardians.

 

Powerr went pretty deeply into showing what the other tanks can do the same or better than KC, but there are 3 things that we have that they don't.

 

KC still has Stealth, Vanish, and Force Sprint (breaks roots in KC) in addition to good defensive cd's, amazing self heals (I get the 75k heal medal in grindy matches), and a pull.

 

While KC may not become dominant in high level ranked play in it's current state, I think that it's still got a lot of potential to be quite useful. Of course that could just be the self preservationist in me .

 

I actually agree with most of this. The balance and infiltration specs do need work, I was never arguing that point. But powerr doesn't mention that guardians need targets for mobility, and those can LoS us, whereas on a map like civil war I would argue kinetic shadows are the king of mobility w/ a 20 second CD sprint.

 

Voidstar they also have more "mobility". While a guardian gets a cap and spams his aoe snare so his team can get a quick 4 cap win, a shadow has stealth and sprint and is arguably a bigger asset in voidstar play (along w/ aoe snare).

 

Guardians only really outshine, and marginally, shadows in huttball play. Not to mention a kinetic spec can sprint out of my snare and get away from AOE range; if a guardian is snared and he jumps, he is still snared.

 

And don't forget, this is an 8 man set up we're talking about, are you really going to have idiots stupid enough to hang around your endzone for me to jump to? Shadows mobility is consistent, guardians needs to be set up.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Invictusthetaru