Amazing RNG on Loot... /sarcasm

[Nikolu]

So based on ~2 months of weekly samples, you all have determined the random number generator system for loot in this game is 'broken' because you have not seen certain pieces drop.

 

Did any of you take statistics and probability? That is still taught in high school right?

 

If you can prove that its actually broken, please do so. Saying that you got the same class token for boots belt and chest in the same raid isn't proof of that.

[Daltin]

You guys make me so mad. Honestly. The crowd of "RNG is truly RNG" are the fortunate few that haven't had issues. Unfortunately, you guys are ignoring the huge crowd of people that say "sorry, no, there IS a problem."

 

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean THE PROBLEM DOESN'T EXIST.

 

This is almost as frustrating as the people on the Soa bug thread that say "lol, we kill soa every week no bugs. Learn 2 Play issue."

 

Sorry, formulating strategies based on potential bugs isn't "Good fight design." Pillars not breaking shields, and lightning orbs not popping correctly, are not "by design". They are bugs.

 

And, as such, the item tables are bugged. For whatever reason, the loot seeding that is assigned to the dungeon leader gets set and can't revert.

 

Update:

 

I have worked over this problem slightly and found a workable solution.

 

By switching only the powertech tank to an assassin we receive mostly SW gear.

 

By switching only the healer to mercenary we receive mostly SI gear (not helpful).

 

By replacing only the mercenary with sorcerer dps we receive mostly BH gear. (moderately helpful to get tank drops).

 

By replacing the juggernaut dps with an assassin dps we receive mostly SI gear (more useful than other version).

 

That is one person's fix. In this thread I'm going to link in a second, I have my own statistics as well.

 

It was very predictable for a few nights, but then 'something changed'. We don't know what, if something was reset. But the person, lets call them Leader A, would 90%+ of the time receive Bounty Hunter gear, and most importantly, the Bounty Hunter Columi piece.

 

Leader B would usually receive 90%+ Warrior, Leader C, Agent, etc. We didn't have anyone that would lead to Willpower drops.

 

Tonight, Leader A was dropping all Agent gear, switched from Bounty Hunter. Leader B has now switched to Bounty Hunter gear. Again, this is 90% of drops when items are supposed to be an even 25%. These streaks are so abnormal, that the mathematical odds of them occuring this frequently, are astronomical.

 

We've now gone 38 consecutive bosses without seeing a Columi Willpower item, or token, drop.

 

This includes:

Black Talon x2

False Emperor x2

Boarding Party, Kaon, Foundry, Ilum, Directive7 x1

 

 

13 of the same item, 13 times in a row, when there are 4 items in a loot table at a 25% chance each, is astronomical odds. and It happens -CONSTANTLY-. Stop turning a blind eye, and read this thread.

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224675

 

Thread in question. Two months of this issue being reported by multiple people.

 

Sorry, RNG fans. The system is broken. This isn't my first MMO, and this isn't a lot of people's first MMOs. Most of us have been through RNG hell on games like warcraft.

 

Getting an Inquisitor Columi Bracer out of Black Talon shouldn't feel like I'm trying to get a Windseeker's Binding off Garr.

[Jokingly]

Really? Is this all we have to cry about?

 

Loot should just drop. Any and all token systems is only to appease you people that would rather whack at a pinata than earn your place in a raid.

 

TL,DR: Man up.

[Daltin]

So based on ~2 months of weekly samples, you all have determined the random number generator system for loot in this game is 'broken' because you have not seen certain pieces drop.

 

Did any of you take statistics and probability? That is still taught in high school right?

 

If you can prove that its actually broken, please do so. Saying that you got the same class token for boots belt and chest in the same raid isn't proof of that.

 

Are you guys actually saying that the loot can't POSSIBLY be bugged? Consider the following.

 

Until last week, sorting guild roster by Level, Lowest to Highest, looked like this:

11

14

18

1

23

29

2

30

31

36

39

3

41

46

4

50

5

6

7

 

A game that features 10 raid bosses, of which Garhj, Pylon, Soa, Bonethrasher, and G4B3 (50% OF BOSSES) Have bugs that can break the encounter on a given attempt (3 months after release.)

 

A game that when Master Looter was activated on Hardmode, Rakata gear WAS REMOVED FROM LOOT TABLES, and would not drop.

 

A game that was so out of sync, that cast bars and abilities needed an extra .5 to 1 second grace period to finish their channel, before being able to reliable do another action without clipping a DoT or dismounting?

 

 

You're telling me that bugged loot variance is out of the realm of possibility? You're out of your damn mind, son.

[Forduc]

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean THE PROBLEM DOESN'T EXIST.

 

If there is RNG, there will be problems. Random is random, someone will have to wait his set for hundreds of runs. Many people will have wait their set for tens of runs. Many people will have their set in few runs, some will get in a one or two.

 

But most importantly, saying RNG is broken, doesn't make it so. "evidence" shown in this thread would make statisticians cry.

 

Now, I'm not saying that RNG is working perfectly, programmers are known to make some funny mistakes. What I'm saying that something that has happened to you or your friends doesn't even begin to show evidence that RNG is broken. That would require some data mining and is probably impossible for everyone else but Bioware.

[Jokingly]

Are you guys actually saying that the loot can't POSSIBLY be bugged? Consider the following.

 

Until last week, sorting guild roster by Level, Lowest to Highest, looked like this:

 

 

A game that features 10 raid bosses, of which Garhj, Pylon, Soa, Bonethrasher, and G4B3 (50% OF BOSSES) Have bugs that can break the encounter on a given attempt (3 months after release.)

 

A game that when Master Looter was activated on Hardmode, Rakata gear WAS REMOVED FROM LOOT TABLES, and would not drop.

 

A game that was so out of sync, that cast bars and abilities needed an extra .5 to 1 second grace period to finish their channel, before being able to reliable do another action without clipping a DoT or dismounting?

 

 

You're telling me that bugged loot variance is out of the realm of possibility? You're out of your damn mind, son.

 

So we're on to conspiracy theories now? Is it a possibility? Sure. But your list above mentions much more important bugs to address, if this one exists at all.

[Daltin]

And for the record, I don't even need gear anymore. Full Rakata from my guild busting its ***. There were weeks where we ONLY saw Warrior gear. Other weeks where we ONLY saw Bounty Hunter gear. And I do mean 10 pieces of Rakata Warrior, or 10 pieces of Bounty Hunter Rakata.

 

Luckily, there was a week where it was 10 PIECES OF INQUISITOR.

 

Sorry, but that is not a working loot table. Did it even out in the end? Yeah, I suppose it did. But the loot should of been of a 5/3/2/0 , 4/3/2/1, 6/2/1/1 variety. Not 10/0/0/0 three weeks in a row, followed by an 8/2/0/0 week this week, where we saw 8 Warrior and 2 Agent drops. My Ashara probably has more gear than most of the people on our server.

 

These posts are a matter of principal that this bug needs fixed for those it is affecting the most.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Daltin

[Daltin]

So we're on to conspiracy theories now? Is it a possibility? Sure. But your list above mentions much more important bugs to address, if this one exists at all.

 

This is an important bug, sorry kid.

[RDeanOU]

It seems to me like there are 2 different parts to this discussion.

 

The first part is this question of whether the RNG is truly working as randomly as it is supposed to be. Unfortunately, this is an unresolvable question and I think both sides are overstating their case.

 

The people claiming that it isn't properly random are really arguing that it doesn't *seem* random. They only have anecdotal evidence and that simply doesn't prove anything. They are only able to say how the RNG feels...they cannot definitively say what it *is* in terms of randomness.

 

On the other side we have the people that are claiming everything is fine, randomness is random, and the other group should quit whining. This case is overstated too. How do you know everything is fine? You dismiss the anecdotes of things being broken, but you have nothing better than anecdotal evidence suggesting that everything is fine. It isn't as though there are any hard numbers disputing the claims that the RNG isn't being random enough.

 

Who is at fault for this lack of evidence? Bioware is. Since we cannot get independent data mining in this game I can't go to a site like torhead and verify that the drops are actually properly randomizing. If we could then this first question would be open and shut.

 

There is, however, another question that I think is being overlooked. Even if the system is properly random, is an RNG system the right way to go? The people claiming everything is fine are largely assuming that if the system is properly random that it is fair and nothing should be done to change it. They are equating random with fair and that is simply foolish. Randomness by its very nature is unfair. Someone will always get screwed by the probabilities and someone else will be the fortunate beneficiary of those same probabilities. Is it in the interest of Bioware or the community at large for people to get frustrated and angry because they can't catch a break from the RNG?

 

For those people claiming everything is fine, ask yourself something. How many operations in a row with you getting zero drops for your class would it take to suck all of the fun out of the game for you? Would it matter that randomness was to blame rather than design? I think that seeing other people constantly being rewarded while you get nothing is frustrating and the opposite of fun and I don't think it matters whether it is random or not.

 

I understand that not knowing fully what will drop can be part of the fun. That's why I like the idea of tying things like relics, mounts, offhands, and even weapons to the RNG. That way there are drops that you are looking for and you get that excitement when you down a boss wondering what is going to drop, but you don't rely fully on a random system that can be terribly unfair.

[Daltin]

It seems to me like there are 2 different parts to this discussion.

 

The first part is this question of whether the RNG is truly working as randomly as it is supposed to be. Unfortunately, this is an unresolvable question and I think both sides are overstating their case.

 

The people claiming that it isn't properly random are really arguing that it doesn't *seem* random. They only have anecdotal evidence and that simply doesn't prove anything. They are only able to say how the RNG feels...they cannot definitively say what it *is* in terms of randomness.

 

On the other side we have the people that are claiming everything is fine, randomness is random, and the other group should quit whining. This case is overstated too. How do you know everything is fine? You dismiss the anecdotes of things being broken, but you have nothing better than anecdotal evidence suggesting that everything is fine. It isn't as though there are any hard numbers disputing the claims that the RNG isn't being random enough.

 

Who is at fault for this lack of evidence? Bioware is. Since we cannot get independent data mining in this game I can't go to a site like torhead and verify that the drops are actually properly randomizing. If we could then this first question would be open and shut.

 

There is, however, another question that I think is being overlooked. Even if the system is properly random, is an RNG system the right way to go? The people claiming everything is fine are largely assuming that if the system is properly random that it is fair and nothing should be done to change it. They are equating random with fair and that is simply foolish. Randomness by its very nature is unfair. Someone will always get screwed by the probabilities and someone else will be the fortunate beneficiary of those same probabilities. Is it in the interest of Bioware or the community at large for people to get frustrated and angry because they can't catch a break from the RNG?

 

For those people claiming everything is fine, ask yourself something. How many operations in a row with you getting zero drops for your class would it take to suck all of the fun out of the game for you? Would it matter that randomness was to blame rather than design? I think that seeing other people constantly being rewarded while you get nothing is frustrating and the opposite of fun and I don't think it matters whether it is random or not.

 

I understand that not knowing fully what will drop can be part of the fun. That's why I like the idea of tying things like relics, mounts, offhands, and even weapons to the RNG. That way there are drops that you are looking for and you get that excitement when you down a boss wondering what is going to drop, but you don't rely fully on a random system that can be terribly unfair.

 

 

I appreciate the mature response here. This sums up everything nicely. Just to touch on something you said at the end, repeating my wow comparison here,

 

Getting a 25% Drop (Columi/Rakata anything from end boss) Shouldn't feel like trying to collect Bindings of the Windseeker for Thunderfury. I'm sure some people feel this exact way.

[DesertStormII]

RNG is the wrong way to approach loot imo.

 

I am a Jedi Knight and am still missing 3 pieces of gear for a full Rakata set, yet I have ran HM EV and KP 8 times each.

 

Last weeks Ops we brought along a fresh lvl 50, and I mean FRESH as in hit 50 2hrs earlier in the day. He is a Sage healer, and by the end of EV and KP he was FULL Rakata.

He got boots, legs, belt, bracers, gloves, chest, helm, main hand, off hand and a healing relic.

Off a trash mob he also received a Columi ear piece and a schematic for his exact implants.

 

1 night of raiding= Full Gear

2 months of raiding= Half Rakata gear

 

The loot system needs to be reevaluated Bioware...... like now please.

[DragonSentry]

This just in...

 

I never once won our weekly Bingo in elementary school. From grades K-5, I played Bingo at school every Friday.

 

Something about those ping-pong balls in that shuffler must have been messed up. Or maybe it was the cards I was using.

 

Wait a second! It was the chair I was sitting in! Err, no it couldn't have been that, Mike sat in my seat once and won a game.

 

In 4th grade we got a new kid; he won Bingo on his first Friday. That's not fair...

[Forduc]

Complete, unbiased and equal random is very much the wrong way to go. However it seems to be traditional way of distributing loot. Maybe because companies fear messing things even more badly if they try to make even. Token system is one way to diminish effect of the random, but only affecting parts of the game.

 

But that aside, there's no way of knowing if RNG is broken or not. Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't even offer reason to doubt that it wouldn't be working. Once someone submits full data for month or more of raiding there might be tiny chance to find something that would cause mild reason to suspect something. But that is highly unlikely, since only the most extreme cases would be statistically significant.

[Chnmmr]

Ops are consistently dropping loot for the classes not in raid. 4 Ops in a row, our sages and troopers get nothing, and the the smugs/knights not in raid get tons of stuff.

 

RNG my ***

[Lazarony]

So, Bioware, do you have plans to fix how we obtain loot for Operations in 1.2... because I'm really tired of not seeing Warrior Gloves and Warrior Chestpiece not dropping for 4 weeks in a row.

 

It's just stupid. Rift had a much better loot system with commendations and not this random "pray to the gods" loot drop.

 

What's even better is my companion has Rakata gloves before I do cuz Operative gear is falling like rain in Seattle.

 

That's funny. We have 2 warriors in our 8-man HM raid group. Loot drops as follows:

 

Annihilator:

1st: 2x rakata warrior gloves

2nd: 1x rakata warrior gloves, 1x rakata agent gloves

 

Gharj:

1st: 2x rakata warrior offhand

2nd: 1x rakata agent offhand, 1x rakata inquisitor offhand

 

Puzzle:

1st: 1x rakata warrior legs, 1x rakata inquisitor legs

2nd: 1x rakata inquisitor legs, 1x rakata agent legs

 

Council:

1st: 1x rakata warrior boots, 1x rakata bounty hunter boots

2nd: 1x rakata agent boots, 1x rakata inquisitor boots

 

Soa:

We're bad, and haven't beaten him HM :/

 

So, RNG just hates you (and me, since I'm one of two bounty hunters in our group, and the other guy got the one boots drop)

[Yomitako]

It does seem like the RNG really is to blame here, but taking a look at some of the alternatives that other people proposed, while seemingly a good idea in and of itself (I, for one, am more partial to the token system), would simply cause people that took the time to grind it out (which I have a feeling is what BW wants people to do in the first place), to go into an all-caps rage, about how they had to grind it out and how the token system makes it too easy for everyone to get the gear they want right away.

 

I've been on both sides of the fence on this one. I've been running False Emperor HM FPS ever since I hit 50 (well over a month ago, at least), and have yet to pick up a chestpiece for myself, and have yet to even see it drop for Jedi Consular. But after a bit of extra grinding (and playing through other flashpoints where I've been successful in picking up Columi gear), I could easily afford the missing chestpiece a la Commendations.

 

Now that, of course, means nothing when it comes to the Rakata gear, as they're all tokenized. So far I've run through 3 (not quite to the end on each of them), HM/NiM Ops, and have seen pretty even distribution of the gear. Although I did see one person consistently getting all of the Alien Data Cubes when 4-5 people rolled Greed on them. Odd.

 

I don't think the whole RNG system needs a huge overhaul, as it stands, maybe a minor tweaking to help improve the chances of picking up gear though (Such as, as one previous poster said, eliminate the chance of gear dropping for a class that's not even present). Maybe something to increase chances of gear dropping for classes that have more of one than the other (5 Troopers - whether they be a mix of vanguards/commandos, doesn't matter). That one can be tricky, if it really hampers the chances of the lone wolf class getting heavily reduced chances of getting anything.

 

Until that time, folks, just gonna have to grab your favorite beverage, sit down, crack the knuckles and put boots to asses and grind away. Happy hunting!

[Kanub]

9 weeks of HM raiding.

0 rakata agent mainhand from Karagga.

1 rakata agent chest from Soa. (and only 2 columi agent mainhand).

 

Last 3 weeks, its been 2x BH, 1x War + 1x Inq and 2x War mainhands from karagga.

 

That is a typical pattern we've seen since we started. Been mostly BH mainhand drops.

[RDeanOU]

This just in...

 

I never once won our weekly Bingo in elementary school. From grades K-5, I played Bingo at school every Friday.

 

Something about those ping-pong balls in that shuffler must have been messed up. Or maybe it was the cards I was using.

 

Wait a second! It was the chair I was sitting in! Err, no it couldn't have been that, Mike sat in my seat once and won a game.

 

In 4th grade we got a new kid; he won Bingo on his first Friday. That's not fair...

 

This is such a terrible analogy that I can't imagine you are serious.

 

Did you pay to play Bingo at school?

 

Were you at school primarily for the purpose of winning bingo?

 

Maybe you would be satisfied paying $15 per month to lose at Friday bingo games over and over, but I expect a bit more out of an MMO.

Edited March 14, 2012 by RDeanOU

[TheRiddick]

I have to chime in here, We have been running HM ops and FPs for a while now and I have one friend who has not got a single piece of gear from these while another has 2 fully geared toons, it makes no sense, make it more about gear progression, less about luck of the draw! RnG is not smart, That is one of the biggest complaints I have with this game. They are shifting away from the RnG in PvP gear, they should do so in the PvE gear as well, it is not a very good way to divvy out loot because someone always gets left out.

[elvavwiel]

So, Bioware, do you have plans to fix how we obtain loot for Operations in 1.2... because I'm really tired of not seeing Warrior Gloves and Warrior Chestpiece not dropping for 4 weeks in a row.

 

It's just stupid. Rift had a much better loot system with commendations and not this random "pray to the gods" loot drop.

 

What's even better is my companion has Rakata gloves before I do cuz Operative gear is falling like rain in Seattle.

 

Our jedi knight off tank has their 5th chest piece in just as many runs <<.

The only ones having to fight for gear are the consulars to be honest.

[Uzilara]

I would only ask for Bioware to change 1 thing: if you don't have the class in your flashpoint or operation group, make sure that no items can drop for that class as it is a total waste of time of the entire group.

keep it random but make sure that only loot is dropped that is actually for one of the classes in the group.

 

WoW (here we go ) had the same issue a long time ago where in horde raid groups we had paladin items drop (when paladins weren't playable on horde side yet)...they fixed this so why can't this be done by Bioware?

 

Is it because Bioware wants us to keep grinding the same content over and over?

I surely hope not, cause I'm burned out on grinding the same raid for months (it's the main reason I quit wow)

[DragonSentry]

This is such a terrible analogy that I can't imagine you are serious.

 

Did you pay to play Bingo at school?

 

Were you at school primarily for the purpose of winning bingo?

 

Maybe you would be satisfied paying $15 per month to lose at Friday bingo games over and over, but I expect a bit more out of an MMO.

 

 

Do you pay to $15/month to kill raid bosses?

 

Are you playing SWTOR primarily for the purpose of watching loot drops?

 

Maybe you'd be satisfied paying $15 a month to watch purple loot with bigger numbers on it drop over and over, but I expect a bit more out of an MMO.

[Daecollo]

buy them with comms.

[Brittaany_Banks]

buy them with comms.

 

Ding ding ding,

 

We have a winner folks. If you aren't getting drops that sucks it really does but running the daily and weekly missions SHOULD be netting you comms so that you can also purchase the gear from the vendor so you are not completely assed out.

[Snakeyees]

We have a guy in my guild that has been to 15 EV raids and Not 1 Item has dropped for his Guardian. I go on the same raids i have 3 full sets of Guardian gear. the loot system is completely unfair to some people.

 

 

 

In the guild summit they said that they were going to make the items trade able between the players in the raid. i like this idea.