PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Ulmius]

Just trying to plumb the depths of what "pulling your weight" really means. Gets thrown around alot with varied meaning. A unified definition is sort of neccessity if you want to be fair about things while punishing players for unmet goals.

 

I have my own opinions about your answers while both agreeing and disagreeing with some but, mostly I think there needs to be clarity. Thanks for the response. Although, you did sort of dodge giving a direct answer to #4.

 

It's not that I dodged number 4, it's just that the question you asked has some give and take. When playing a group game you have to consider the other people in your group. If your version of having fun is having some weird spec and using weird moves thus doing much less damage than your class is capable of, that's fine when you solo. However in a group environment that's not fair to the other people.

[Nagadeath]

Just trying to plumb the depths of what "pulling your weight" really means. Gets thrown around alot with varied meaning. A unified definition is sort of neccessity if you want to be fair about things while punishing players for unmet goals.

 

I have my own opinions about your answers while both agreeing and disagreeing with some but, mostly I think there needs to be clarity. Thanks for the response. Although, you did sort of dodge giving a direct answer to #4.

 

i think it comes down to a difference in philosophy. the SWTOR devs said several times they went with the "bring the player not the class" philosophy but a lot of players are still stuck with the WoW "bring the class, spec, rotation, cause the player doesn't really matter" mindset.

 

personally i would rather fail 100 times with people i have fun playing with than win 1 time with people i can't stand being around.

 

Edited that last line in for clarification.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Nagadeath

[Ulmius]

It seems to me this is what this whole debate boils down to.

 

The anti meter crowd is trying to protect the individual - especially the ones that are poor players, or the ones that would get mocked by playing poorly.

 

The pro meter crowd is trying to protect the group by having everyone in the group be able to perform decently and making it so everyone in the group has a good time by having less frustration with wiping on bosses over and over. If they are wiping they can look at the meter and pick out what's causing it and if it's someone doing poor dps they can tell him to pick up his game and if he doesn't then replace him.

 

When you are winning, everyone has a good time. When you are constantly wiping, nobody is having fun including the guy that has fun with his weird spec.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[Vydor_HC]

It seems to me this is what this whole debate boils down to.

 

The anti meter crowd is trying to protect the individual - especially the ones that are poor players, or the ones that would get mocked by playing poorly.

 

The pro meter crowd is trying to protect the group by having everyone in the group be able to perform decently and making it so everyone in the group has a good time by having less frustration with wiping on bosses over and over.

 

It's not a black and white issue as you describe. Everyone has a different opinion of what is fun and how to have a good time. For some the numbers of an encounter or even killing the boss is not the top priority, getting along with their groups mates is. For others, doing the best they can on a meter is the essence of fun.

 

Bioware is trying to cut it down the middle with their implementation.

[Matte_Black]

Is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game?

 

Is it acceptable to be selfish and not care about the group mates? Is it fair to join a group and knowingly do low dps when you could be doing a lot more? Is it fair for you to enjoy the game in a way that hurts the experience for 3-15 other people?

 

Although, you did sort of dodge giving a direct answer to #4.

 

It's not that I dodged number 4, it's just that the question you asked has some give and take. When playing a group game you have to consider the other people in your group. If your version of having fun is having some weird spec and using weird moves thus doing much less damage than your class is capable of, that's fine when you solo. However in a group environment that's not fair to the other people.

 

So was that a "Yes" or a "No"?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Matte_Black]

The anti meter crowd is trying to protect the individual - especially the ones that are poor players, or the ones that would get mocked by playing poorly.

 

When the line defining who is "poor" is drawn at being 95% optimized in build, equipment, tactics and player skill, the percentage of players who are poor can be sort of large.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Ulmius]

So was that a "Yes" or a "No"?

 

It's like I said, when you play solo you can play as you like. When you play in a group you have to consider the other people. Are we so selfish that you having fun is more important than taking consideration of the other people?

 

What you are asking is like saying, I would have fun on my football team as the running back if every play they handed me the ball. I don't care about the others on the team or if we win, I just want the ball because it's more fun. While it would be more fun for you, you have to think about the teammates and some plays you have to block for the qb or go out on a passing route. In other words, when in group play, you have to think about the others in your group and the good of the team.

[Esproc]

it seems to me this is what this whole debate boils down to.

 

The anti meter crowd is trying to protect the individual - especially the ones that are poor players, or the ones that would get mocked by playing poorly.

 

The pro meter crowd is trying to protect the group by having everyone in the group be able to perform decently and making it so everyone in the group has a good time by having less frustration with wiping on bosses over and over. If they are wiping they can look at the meter and pick out what's causing it and if it's someone doing poor dps they can tell him to pick up his game and if he doesn't then replace him.

 

When you are winning, everyone has a good time. When you are constantly wiping, nobody is having fun including the guy that has fun with his weird spec.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^meterleetepeenattitude^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Ulmius]

When the line defining who is "poor" is drawn at being 95% optimized in build, equipment, tactics and player skill, the percentage of players who are poor can be sort of large.

 

Except, people that are doing 95% of the damage as someone else aren't being considered a poor player. The people that are being mocked and are considered poor players are the ones that are doing less, or barely more than the tank.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[DarkonMontana]

I say no, it is not needed, I really love SWTOR, and some of these same people suggesting a combat log, are the very people I left another mmo I enjoyed, because the developers didn't have a back bone enought to tell the community NO!

 

There is no need for a combat log, and the game works just fine without it, trust me imo anybody stressing otherwise, really are customers better off left for EVE or WOW or some other game that is stale and littered with people less about having a good time, and enjoying THE GAME, and more concerned with ego. Again I say NO!

[Matte_Black]

It's like I said, when you play solo you can play as you like. When you play in a group you have to consider the other people. Are we so selfish that you having fun is more important than taking consideration of the other people?

 

What you are asking is like saying, I would have fun on my football team as the running back if every play they handed me the ball. I don't care about the others on the team or if we win, I just want the ball because it's more fun. While it would be more fun for you, you have to think about the teammates and some plays you have to block for the qb or go out on a passing route. In other words, when in group play, you have to think about the others in your group and the good of the team.

 

My question was written under the assumption that I meant the enjoyment of the game by the group and it's wording allows for such a take on it. I also point out you chose to reframe it into a narrower and more extreme question than was posted. In the most general sense, is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game? Note, I say "more important", not either or or "not care about the group mates". Just a mere statement of priority of one or the other.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Ulmius]

My question was written under the assumption that I meant the enjoyment of the game by the group and it's wording allows for such a take on it. I also point out you chose to reframe it into a narrower and more extreme question that was posted. In the most general sense, is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game? Note, i say "more important", not either or or not caring about trying to play well. Just a mere statement of priority of one or the other.

 

If you aren't pulling your weight you open yourself up to ridicule and nobody likes to be made fun of. If you take consideration of the other people in your group and make sure you are pulling your weight you will be playing better and have a better time. The better you are at something, no matter the activity, the more you'll enjoy that activity.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[DarkonMontana]

"Pulling your weight" This is a game played for fun, There is no need for a meter to see who is doing more damage. There are plenty of other games that have this feature and it all = the very worst about the online gaming experience. The game right now is fine, if it doesn't appeal to the types of people BioWare is better off without so be it.

 

 

Whatever BW does, it should just do what it does best, makes a great game and keeps moving forward, and this is a great game and FUN by the way.

[ScarletBlaze]

If you aren't pulling your weight you open yourself up to ridicule and nobody likes to be made fun of. If you take consideration of the other people in your group and make sure you are pulling your weight you will be playing better and have a better time. The better you are at something, no matter the activity, the more you'll enjoy that activity.

 

Why should someone be made fun of just because their dps may be off? There could be reasons for that.

 

Computers do lag and reaction times are delayed. I have played with people whose reactions times are delayed because of a computer system. Not everyone can go out and buy a new computer in this economy.

 

They could be pullin their "weight" to the best of their ability and people make fun of them? Why? Because some people look for a reason to ridicule people.

 

If everyone is having fun no matter what the dps logs are sayin that is what is most important.

Edited March 15, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Matte_Black]

If you aren't pulling your weight you open yourself up to ridicule and nobody likes to be made fun of. If you take consideration of the other people in your group and make sure you are pulling your weight you will be playing better and have a better time. The better you are at something, no matter the activity, you'll enjoy that activity more.

 

I would contend that when "pulling my weight" encroaches upon my build and gear choices, there are alot of people would feel I am being forced to enjoy the game less either by crafting my character(not just an avatar) differently than they I would like. I can temporarily abide playing along with the ways of the group and adapting thier tactics and skill tips but, when you get to dictating what character someone can play, you'll see alot more variation.

 

I also have to point out that alot of those group members you are so concerned with, you have no problem stalling the gameplay of to prosecute a metrics discusssion the may not enjoy. It's pretty rare that I see players ask their party if they mind stopping and hashing out a DPS issue rather than just laying into the "offending" member. Judging from many of the posts here, alot of those types have a problem concieving that others don't enjoy metrics debates at the drop of a hat.

 

Once again, I thank you for your initial response of the first 3 questions and look forward to where others stand on those questions about what "pulling your weight" means.

[Ulmius]

Why should someone be made fun of just because their dps may be off? There could be reasons for that.

 

Computers do lag and reaction times are delayed. I have played with people whose reactions times are delayed because of a computer system. Not everyone can go out and buy a new computer in this economy.

 

They could be pullin their "weight" to the best of their ability and people make fun of them? Why? Because some people look for a reason to ridicule people.

 

If everyone is having fun no matter what the dps logs are sayin that is what is most important.

 

 

People don't get made fun of because their dps is "off". They get made fun of when they perform terribly, like doing less or barely more dps than the tank. If your role is dps, and you do comparable dps to the tank, then there is something very wrong and that's when people start feeling the need to say something.

[Ulmius]

I would contend that when "pulling my weight" encroaches upon my build and gear choices, there are alot of people would feel I am being forced to enjoy the game less either by crafting my character(not just an avatar) differently than they I would like. I can temporarily abide playing along with the ways of the group and adapting thier tactics and skill tips but, when you get to dictating what character someone can play, you'll see alot more variation.

 

I also have to point out that alot of those group members you are so concerned with, you have no problem stalling the gameplay of to prosecute a metrics discusssion the may not enjoy. It's pretty rare that I see players ask their party if they mind stopping and hashing out a DPS issue rather than just laying into the "offending" member. Judging from many of the posts here, alot of those types have a problem concieving that others don't enjoy metrics debates at the drop of a hat.

 

Once again, I thank you for your initial response of the first 3 questions and look forward to where others stand on those questions about what "pulling your weight" means.

 

What you don't seem to understand is, if you can make a spec that's different than the normal one and can still put out comparable numbers, then people don't mind that. It's when you use a spec and do terrible dps that people comment on your spec and ask you to change.

 

Being different is fine if you can make it work. But being different and putting out terrible numbers (like comparable dps to the tank) and start hurting your group is when it's not fine.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[ScarletBlaze]

People don't get made fun of because their dps is "off". They get made fun of when they perform terribly, like doing less or barely more dps than the tank. If your role is dps, and you do comparable dps to the tank, then there is something very wrong and that's when people start feeling the need to say something.

 

Want to bet? I've seen people made fun of because their dps was "off" and regardless no one ever should be made fun of period. There is a way to handle a situation if someone is performing "terribly" and makin fun of the person isn't the way to handle it.

 

Why not help the person and see what is causing the problem. But no, most will not do that they will make fun of the person and call them names.

 

Why is it so acceptable to make fun of a person instead of helping them? or is it so easy just to make fun of someone because we are just too lazy to help someone learn things.

Edited March 15, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[DaxRendar]

If you aren't pulling your weight you open yourself up to ridicule and nobody likes to be made fun of. If you take consideration of the other people in your group and make sure you are pulling your weight you will be playing better and have a better time. The better you are at something, no matter the activity, you'll enjoy that activity more.

 

And here is where we enter the slippery slope down into the dark side of the "hardcore raider" mindset. A few things for you to think about:

-People in this thread (just recently even) have claimed that any sort of "carrying" is bad even when most of the group is over-geared for it and there's that one person in acceptable but entry level gear getting ridiculed for no other reason than they are running the content they need to in order to get geared up.

-People with "the Best DPS" are often the best geared. For being better-geared, they are "rewarded" with a static spot on the Ops Team. Having a static spot, they earn way more DKP/EPGP/gear from drops than those under-geared "baddies" who "can't perform" and "get carried" exacerbating the problem. See the "Catch-22" there?

 

And finally "The better you are at something, no matter the activity, you'll enjoy that activity more" is in fact a fallacy. I'm a veritable god at tic tac toe. I don't play it anymore because it offers no challenge as I've mastered the game. I hate to break this news to all the so-called "hardcore uberleet raiders" out there but gear-grind largely scripted boss encounters are nothing more than an advanced version of tic tac toe and "tools" like meters and DBM addons just lead to the content becoming boring even faster.

 

Having said that, I do think there's a place for Personal Logs, and for those who enjoy optimizing or "competing with their friends" to have the ability to do so (especially the solo theorycrafters). But I don't want it to be "easy" or "convenient" for them (specifically the competition-focused but also those who feel the "need" to optimize everyone around them) to do it whenever and however they want at the expense of other players of the game because to me they really are "ruining the game."

 

And before somebody responds with the inevitable "omg he wants people to be bads!?!?1?!1" comments - no I don't. I do want people to improve and reach a basic level of competency at least. But there is a lot of room between Competent and Optimized that many metrics-oriented folks by their very nature overlook.

 

There's also the fact that games aren't about optimization - they are about enjoyment and leisure. I want a pilot landing a real plane to have the process as optimized, efficient, and error proof as possible. When I'm landing a plane in a game I'm hoping for crap blowing up all around me, flying by the seat of my pants, with at least the sense of danger and the possibility of failure.

[Stupiddrummer]

if your "having fun" in group content results in poor performance, then you are wasting 3 other peoples' time. That is very inconsiderate.

[Matte_Black]

If they were doing publicly-viewable combat logs, I would actually welcome BioWare-provided suggested performance levels for the content. I'd wager they'd show just how overblown alot of the DPS minimums and such set by the hard-core raiders tend to be.

[Matte_Black]

if your "having fun" in group content results in poor performance, then you are wasting 3 other peoples' time. That is very inconsiderate.

 

This assume that everyone defines fun by optimal group performance. I'd take a challenging near miss over a barely-contested faceroll everytime and I am pretty sure that I am not in a 75% minority on that.

 

The consideration occurs while forming groups and setting expectations not, by measuring one another and punishing others based on your viewpoint of how to play the game. I'd also point out that many of the pro-public loggers are fine with quickly kicking folks on mere numbers with little but some harsh words to go along with it. Yes, this does happpen and there is very little consideration involved with it.

[Stupiddrummer]

This assume that everyone defines fun by optimal group performance. I'd take a challenging near miss over a barely-contested faceroll everytime and I am pretty sure that I am not in a 75% minority on that.

 

The consideration occurs while forming groups and setting expectations not, by measuring one another and punishing others based on your viewpoint of how to play the game. I'd also point out that many of the pro-public loggers are fine with quickly kicking folks on mere numbers with little but some harsh words to go along with it. Yes, this does happpen and there is very little consideration involved with it.

 

no if any person's individual idea of fun ends up being debilitating to the point that it affects the whole group you should leave. Meters or no meters. You are wasting 3 other people's time.

[MasterKayote]

If they were doing publicly-viewable combat logs, I would actually welcome BioWare-provided suggested performance levels for the content. I'd wager they'd show just how overblown alot of the DPS minimums and such set by the hard-core raiders tend to be.

 

Heh, that would be nice. Bioware would know best on what the expectations are to complete something. If they ever do come out with meters id hope they come out with some kind of boss descriptions, like WoW did, detailing the minimum expected DPS, HPS, and (i dunno) Defenses(?) which they themselves designed the encounter for.

 

The one time the meter drone idiots directed their crap toward me was during one of the Frozen Throne heroics (the one with the falling ice through a cave?). Dont remember the extact numbers as it was over 2 years ago, but needless to say they, as pimped out uber raiders, were way ahead of me, I knew my DPS was fine for my gear level, I laughed at their b/s we exchanged a few f-bombs before they finally decided to kick me (I wasnt dropping and getting the the queue CD for those idiots). The run was going perfect and the next time going into that instance we had a team doing much less overall DPS, one of them, a Hunter, was well below my own ... and the run went through without a single death.

 

This happens non-stop, multiple times a week ... pugging regularly.

 

This is why meters blow ... people are idiots. We dont ACTUALLY need them in game. For what? So a few perfectionists (*cough* i mean, "hardcore") can verify theyre following the spec and rotations they found at http://www.TOR-ElitistJerks.com? No thanks. Its bad enogh we're getting what BW is planning now.

[genesiser]

If they were doing publicly-viewable combat logs, I would actually welcome BioWare-provided suggested performance levels for the content. I'd wager they'd show just how overblown alot of the DPS minimums and such set by the hard-core raiders tend to be.

 

Like many things in society, acceptable standards change. As the vast majority of players get better gear, their average dps goes up and so does the standard of minimal dps. People grow accustomed to seeing higher numbers and if you are in the same quality of gear as someone else but putting out dps that people were doing the tier before, then there's a problem. For example, if people in tionese gear are doing 1k dps and people in rakata are doing 1500 dps - and you go into that group with rakata gear and doing 1k dps, then there's a problem. What you are doing isn't normal and you are considered a deviant which is why people make comments.