HM FPs - worth the effort?

[qwinnet]

My guild has a "discussion" of the worth of running HM FPs. Some of us believe it's not worth the time and effort considering:

- 4 - 5 weeks of running the Ops will get you geared out

- the gear drops in the HM FPs are only marginally better than fully modded Oranges

- some of us have a rl and are time constrainted - rather do wz's or level an alt than spend 2 hours in an FP.

 

Others feel there is valuable gear and drops in the HM FPs and, in time, we'll be able to do the FPs in under an hour, like in "other" games.

 

An important note is we feel we have reg EV on farm and starting first HM EV attempt this week.

 

Any thoughts?

[Khornell]

I think that they are worth it. Granted you do get the same drops as normal mode ops, but here are a few things to consider. Doing the daily / weekly HM quests you get the commendations. This will buy the columni gear you can't seem to get to drop for you (Stupid legs). Also, running a guildmate thru for drops in the HM flashpoints on non-raid nights will help get them geared faster - thus making the HM ops runs (or 16 man runs) come faster.

 

We try to run normal ops one night and try HM another. Sometimes people can't make the normal mode run, so they do HM flash points to get geared for the HM ops (since it is basically the same gear)

 

It's all a matter of hat you consider worth it, and how much time you have to play.

[Flain]

Swings and roundabouts... do a mixture of both, don't forget in OP's you have more competition. I reckon you would get geared up quicker if you do some hm's with ops...

[andrew_b_gross]

My guild has a "discussion" of the worth of running HM FPs. Some of us believe it's not worth the time and effort considering:

- 4 - 5 weeks of running the Ops will get you geared out

- the gear drops in the HM FPs are only marginally better than fully modded Oranges

- some of us have a rl and are time constrainted - rather do wz's or level an alt than spend 2 hours in an FP.

 

Others feel there is valuable gear and drops in the HM FPs and, in time, we'll be able to do the FPs in under an hour, like in "other" games.

 

An important note is we feel we have reg EV on farm and starting first HM EV attempt this week.

 

Any thoughts?

 

From an efficiency standpoint, running HM FPs is so much worse than running Ops that it's laughable to even compare them. Comapring them to one another, no, HM FPs aren't even close to worth it.

 

Now, the problem is that you can run FPs once/day and only run Ops once/week. So if you run EV on one night and KP on another night, that leaves 5 nights left. If what you want to do with your leisure time is log on and play Star Wars on any of those other five nights, you've got your choice between running dailies for 90 minutes, doing a FP in 90 minutes, or doing both in 3 hours. There really isn't another choice for PvE.

 

TL;DR : no one should run HM FPs because they think it's neccessary to gear up quickly, but if you've got nothing better to do or just enjoy them, why not?

[Black_Night]

HM FP are ok at the beginning, when you just turned 50. They build up your skill as a PVE player and also offer some loot that can help you in your first ops.

 

Later they can help you fill in the missing gear in your columi set.

 

They are not as good as Ops, but they certainly have their purpose.

[Battilea]

Any thoughts?

 

HM FPs are worth doing, if only for the daily and weekly, though the final boss is handy as well. It'll let you fill in the gaps, those items that just won't drop, as well as give you mods/enhancements to fix some of the poor itemization found on the stock items.

 

However, from an efficiency standpoint, the only thing that is really worth killing in them in the final boss. Skip as much as you can to get there. That's where the learning curve comes in, knowing what all you can skip.

 

And, yeah, if you are time starved, well, then playing an alt or a war zone can take priority over it.

[demoncrat]

My guild has a "discussion" of the worth of running HM FPs. Some of us believe it's not worth the time and effort considering:

- 4 - 5 weeks of running the Ops will get you geared out

- the gear drops in the HM FPs are only marginally better than fully modded Oranges

- some of us have a rl and are time constrainted - rather do wz's or level an alt than spend 2 hours in an FP.

 

Others feel there is valuable gear and drops in the HM FPs and, in time, we'll be able to do the FPs in under an hour, like in "other" games.

 

An important note is we feel we have reg EV on farm and starting first HM EV attempt this week.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I started my BH Powertech tank the first day of EGA. I was fifty a day into official launch. I had all my Columi pieces a week after by running Hardmode Flashpoints in PUGs.

 

The first time I ran a PUG in KP Normal to just "check" out raiding, we wiped on Bonethrasher for 6 hours. Most of the original members had left by then. I got my Columi head piece that night. It felt good. (Remember KUS wasn't out then, and Bonethrasher normal was the only guy who dropped Columi head token).

 

I was the best geared tank at that time, when operations were only run by the hardcore guilds. I ended up joining the top raiding guild on my server as a consequence of being geared 100% in Columi.

 

I'm two Rakata pieces away from a complete Rakata set. The guild I tank for in operations has everything on farm except 16 man KP NMM, which we are close to getting.

 

I have the Infernal title (completed EV in under 2 hours on NMM).

 

When I go into a Warzone I destroy the opposition, and I'm PvE tank specced in PvE gear.

 

When I join a PUG to tank people are happy to have me, grateful, and always comment on how well geared I am. Sometimes they'll even ask me about the Infernal title: only fifteen other people on my server have it, and they were all in my raid when they got it.

 

You want to "skip" HMs because they're not worth it? Be my guest. If you're serious about progression you'll PUG the crap out of them and then app a better guild.

 

Winning requires dedication.

[Fatalsystemerror]

Do it! I was lucky and had a few of the columni pieces drop for me to turn in, besides the commendations i was able to gear my self for ops real quick and then was able to replace them over time as i progressed in the ops. Better to be decently geared then to be under geared and give the healer extra work.

[KarethRiker]

^ that. And don't forget the crafting mats, sure there's only one per HM fps but you only need one for Rakata belts, bracers and relics.

 

I avoid a few of them, but some you can run really fast like Maelstrom and Taral. We're burning these down in 45 mins or less with a good group.

[Boissi]

They're definitely worth it, and not just to replace gear with the columi drops, but just because you can better mod your existing columi/rakata gear with better enhancements. As an example for a dps class: replacing accuracy or alacrity enhancements (all the rakata gear offers for certain sets) with surge. As a pvp-player over rank 60 I can do it quite easily with champ gear, but if you're not over valor 60 or a strict pve player, then columi gear is the only way to go, because getting good enhancements to drop in operations is really rare. So just use commendations to buy helmets / gloves or run the instances that drop those, and get crit/surge enhancements (or you can get power/surge enhancements off agent gear) and put them in place of the alacrity/accuracy ones for a dps boost.

 

Same goes for tank gear, and even healer gear. Tank gear has SURGE in it, which is pointless, and also too much accuracy. Healer gear is the same as for dps sorcs: tons and tons of alacrity. Columi gear has a much better balance of stats than Rakata, so even if you lose a few stat points, you'll increase the stats that are actually good for you.

 

Now sure, you can do this on operations too, but it takes a damn long time. Even if you just run a daily BP every day that'll help plenty. 30-40 minute flashpoint and drops the gloves, and you don't even have to settle for your own drops. If there's no agent in the group, for example (happens often), you can ask if you can need for them.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Boissi

[Raansu]

I don't see how anyone could not find them worth the time. OP's have a week lockout and theres only 2 of them. HM FP's are on a 24 hour lockout and there are 7 FP's that you can do on HM each with one boss that drops a colomni token + commendations from dailies/weeklies for both tioneese/colomni gear.

 

You will gear twice as fast running HM FP's every night over just doing the 2 OPs every week. Now if you already have your columni set then yes...it would be a waste of time unless you are trying to gear up new guild members.

[Mindsplitter]

I started my BH Powertech tank the first day of EGA. I was fifty a day into official launch. I had all my Columi pieces a week after by running Hardmode Flashpoints in PUGs.

 

The first time I ran a PUG in KP Normal to just "check" out raiding, we wiped on Bonethrasher for 6 hours. Most of the original members had left by then. I got my Columi head piece that night. It felt good. (Remember KUS wasn't out then, and Bonethrasher normal was the only guy who dropped Columi head token).

 

I was the best geared tank at that time, when operations were only run by the hardcore guilds. I ended up joining the top raiding guild on my server as a consequence of being geared 100% in Columi.

 

I'm two Rakata pieces away from a complete Rakata set. The guild I tank for in operations has everything on farm except 16 man KP NMM, which we are close to getting.

 

I have the Infernal title (completed EV in under 2 hours on NMM).

 

When I go into a Warzone I destroy the opposition, and I'm PvE tank specced in PvE gear.

 

When I join a PUG to tank people are happy to have me, grateful, and always comment on how well geared I am. Sometimes they'll even ask me about the Infernal title: only fifteen other people on my server have it, and they were all in my raid when they got it.

 

You want to "skip" HMs because they're not worth it? Be my guest. If you're serious about progression you'll PUG the crap out of them and then app a better guild.

 

Winning requires dedication.

 

LMAO. Winning requires dedication. Funny stuff.

[Anilon]

I started my BH Powertech tank the first day of EGA. I was fifty a day into official launch. I had all my Columi pieces a week after by running Hardmode Flashpoints in PUGs.

 

The first time I ran a PUG in KP Normal to just "check" out raiding, we wiped on Bonethrasher for 6 hours. Most of the original members had left by then. I got my Columi head piece that night. It felt good. (Remember KUS wasn't out then, and Bonethrasher normal was the only guy who dropped Columi head token).

 

I was the best geared tank at that time, when operations were only run by the hardcore guilds. I ended up joining the top raiding guild on my server as a consequence of being geared 100% in Columi.

 

I'm two Rakata pieces away from a complete Rakata set. The guild I tank for in operations has everything on farm except 16 man KP NMM, which we are close to getting.

 

I have the Infernal title (completed EV in under 2 hours on NMM).

 

When I go into a Warzone I destroy the opposition, and I'm PvE tank specced in PvE gear.

 

When I join a PUG to tank people are happy to have me, grateful, and always comment on how well geared I am. Sometimes they'll even ask me about the Infernal title: only fifteen other people on my server have it, and they were all in my raid when they got it.

 

You want to "skip" HMs because they're not worth it? Be my guest. If you're serious about progression you'll PUG the crap out of them and then app a better guild.

 

Winning requires dedication.

 

 

Anectodal evidence is not valid proof in a discussion of worth, unfortunately. (Though on a personal note, I enjoyed your story).

 

The fact of the matter is that the OP makes a point. Most of us long-time MMO players are used to *having* to run pre-operation content. Here, however, it seems that due to the difficulty (or lack there of) of normal-mode you may be better off simply doing operations if you don't want to dedicate time.

 

Oh and by the way - I am 4 pieces from full Rakata - and I have run a grand total of 6 or 7 hard mode flashpoints, receiving only 1 piece of gear total from them.

[Anilon]

LMAO. Winning requires dedication. Funny stuff.

 

To be honest, while my reply to the same post was more serious, I had the same thoughts you've posted here.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Anilon

[Luno]

I think doing HM Flashpoints as a guild effort is worth it because even if you don't get anything for yourself, you are helping gear out people for your Operations. However, as an individual I found them to be extremely unrewarding. I have not used a single drop from a HM, although I've probably only done a dozen or so. You just cannot count on the RNG getting you drops in a timely manner. Hour-wise, Operations are just more efficient as you have 5 times as many chances for useable loot in the same amount of time.

 

The biggest issue, I think, is that Daily Comms gear is too good and negates the need to obtain Tionese. If the Daily Comms gear was all level 50 Blues instead of 51/50 Purples, there would be a clear reason to do Hard Mode Flash Points before Operations.

[andrew_b_gross]

 

Oh and by the way - I am 4 pieces from full Rakata - and I have run a grand total of 6 or 7 hard mode flashpoints, receiving only 1 piece of gear total from them.

 

The only possible upgrade for me at this point is to change my Columi chest piece for a Rakata chest piece. It's actually not even a "real" upgrade, because the mods in it are already swapped from extra Rakata gear, so it's only a few points of armor, which don't matter for me. All other Relics, implants, earpiece, weapons, etc., are all Best in Slot.

 

I ran dailies for one week and went on 3-5 Hard Mode Flashpoints before beginning to run EV on normal mode (I was with the first group in my guild that did it, so it's not like I was being carried). We cleared EV our first weekend trying, it honestly wasn't any harder than a HM flashpoint, just wearing crafted/orange gear with the ridiculously cheap/easy armor/mods/enh that you get from doing the dailies.

 

Now here's the thing: the above isn't bragging, because it's not hard to do. My guild is NOT filled with pro players. That Rakata chest piece I'm missing? I'm missing it because my guild STILL hasn't been able to kill Soa on Hardmode, and that's the only way to get it. There's a reason they're renaming "Normal Mode" to "Story Mode" in 1.2: it's meant for EVERYONE to be able to beat it, so you can see the content. The idea that you'd need to do something tedious or spend long hours preparing to run EV normal mode is laughable. Clear the first 4 bosses on EV normal mode and you average one piece of Columi per person, PLUS a bunch of Columi commendations, PLUS crafting recipes and materials.

 

If you started doing normal mode operations this week, and ran them both every week, by the time 1.2 comes out you'd have complete Columi gear. It's not Rakata, but then again, you're not getting Rakata from doing Flashpoints, either. Getting BiS gear is ridiculously easy in this game (though I hope/expect it to get harder with 1.2).

Edited March 13, 2012 by andrew_b_gross

[Anilon]

The only possible upgrade for me at this point is to change my Columi chest piece for a Rakata chest piece. It's actually not even a "real" upgrade, because the mods in it are already swapped from extra Rakata gear, so it's only a few points of armor, which don't matter for me. All other Relics, implants, earpiece, weapons, etc., are all Best in Slot.

 

I ran dailies for one week and went on 3-5 Hard Mode Flashpoints before beginning to run EV on normal mode (I was with the first group in my guild that did it, so it's not like I was being carried). We cleared EV our first weekend trying, it honestly wasn't any harder than a HM flashpoint, just wearing crafted/orange gear with the ridiculously cheap/easy armor/mods/enh that you get from doing the dailies.

 

Now here's the thing: the above isn't bragging, because it's not hard to do. My guild is NOT filled with pro players. That Rakata chest piece I'm missing? I'm missing it because my guild STILL hasn't been able to kill Soa on Hardmode, and that's the only way to get it. There's a reason they're renaming "Normal Mode" to "Story Mode" in 1.2: it's meant for EVERYONE to be able to beat it, so you can see the content. The idea that you'd need to do something tedious or spend long hours preparing to run EV normal mode is laughable. Clear the first 4 bosses on EV normal mode and you average one piece of Columi per person, PLUS a bunch of Columi commendations, PLUS crafting recipes and materials.

 

If you started doing normal mode operations this week, and ran them both every week, by the time 1.2 comes out you'd have complete Columi gear. It's not Rakata, but then again, you're not getting Rakata from doing Flashpoints, either. Getting BiS gear is ridiculously easy in this game (though I hope/expect it to get harder with 1.2).

 

Agree with everything you said. This was my point as well - no reason in this game to tediously grind HM FP's. Seeing the content is a whole different story (I absolutely loved fighting malgus the first time.. best MMO experience in a long time.)

[ViperI]

Now, the problem is that you can run FPs once/day and only run Ops once/week. So if you run EV on one night and KP on another night, that leaves 5 nights left. If what you want to do with your leisure time is log on and play Star Wars on any of those other five nights, you've got your choice between running dailies for 90 minutes, doing a FP in 90 minutes, or doing both in 3 hours. There really isn't another choice for PvE.

 

This.

 

@OP: HM FPs are there to fill your non-raid times of the day. If you don't already have full Ilum/Belsavis daily quest reward mods/implants/earpiece, do your dailies. Once the dailies are done, run HM FPs and Ops on the nights your guild does them. The commendation rewards alone from daily/weekly HM FP missions make them worthwhile. The drop at the end can be sketchy as I've seen plenty of times where the item that drops is for a class that isn't even in the group.

 

That said, it sounds like you're more interested in playing alts and doing WZs. Do what's fun for you, but if gearing up in PvE is a priority, then HM FPs definitely have their place.

[demoncrat]

LMAO. Winning requires dedication. Funny stuff.

 

You can laugh, but when you're LFGing for a Tank or Healer, be it for a FP or operation, and someone like me replies, you'll be glad. Players like myself come ready, know our class, and learn the encounters.

 

We don't look for short cuts by skipping content.

[andrew_b_gross]

We don't look for short cuts by skipping content.

 

TOR is a brand-new MMO. No reasonable person expected that they would get evey facet of the game perfect, or even mostly correct, at launch.

 

They screwed up some stuff, which they've publicly admitted. Crafting doesn't work at all like they intended. Not being able to remove the base armor/hilts has led to all level 50s looking the same. Etc.

 

One of the things they screwed up is the itemization. Again, they've admitted this. The absurd amounts of accuracy on the lvl 58 mods that come with Rakata gear is one glaring example of this. The very small difference in effectiveness between the tiers is another.

 

IF they had gotten their itemization correct, then yes, doing the HM Flashhpoints, as they clearly intended, would have been a useful and necessary prerequisite for doing the Ops. The difference between Tionese gear and Columi gear would have been much greater, and the Tionese gear would be noticably better than the mods you get by doing dailies, and normal mode Operations wouldn't drop 2 pieces of the 2nd best gear in the entire game every time you kill a boss.

 

BUT they did screw up. This doesn't make them incompetent, it doesn't ruin the game, it's not shocking, and it's entirely correctible. Nonetheless, it is reality.

 

You're saying everyone should play the game AS IF the designers hadn't messed up: grind Flashpoints for the gear you need to do Ops, then do the Ops. And certainly, no one's questioning that this is what the designers were aiming for. If they had hit the mark, then skipping the Flashpoints to do Ops would, indeed, be "taking short cuts by skipping content."

 

Again, the itemization and rewards got messed up, and given the ACTUAL way that the game works, you're not "taking a short cut" if you only run a few flashpoints before doing Operations. You're not dragging your Op down, you're not being carried, you're not being impatient; you're just accurately assessing the game environment as it was actually implemented, and taking the most efficient means of getting through the content.

Edited March 13, 2012 by andrew_b_gross

[Anilon]

You can laugh, but when you're LFGing for a Tank or Healer, be it for a FP or operation, and someone like me replies, you'll be glad. Players like myself come ready, know our class, and learn the encounters.

 

We don't look for short cuts by skipping content.

 

I don't even... is this for real?

 

I come ready, know my class, and learn the encounters as well - the difference between us? I don't treat my video game knowledge like it makes me superior to others...

[demoncrat]

IF they had gotten their itemization correct, then yes, doing the HM Flashhpoints, as they clearly intended, would have been a useful and necessary prerequisite for doing the Ops. The difference between Tionese gear and Columi gear would have been much greater, and the Tionese gear would be noticably better than the mods you get by doing dailies, and normal mode Operations wouldn't drop 2 pieces of the 2nd best gear in the entire game every time you kill a boss.

 

Sorry but you're wrong here. The difference between Tionese and Columi is pretty big. Even at the Guild Summit Gabe said as much. They admitted that Rakata is broken but they will fix it in 1.2, so getting Rakata and saving the mods is still important. Nonetheless he made a point of saying the gap between Tionese and Columi is big.

 

Doing HM FPs not only gets you whats probably the best itemized gear right now, it prepares you for operations. There's a reason tons of guilds can't do Soa HM. Soa is a control fight through and through. It's not about the best DPS, or the best tank. It's about moving between targets (mind traps, and the balls) while keeping the raid topped off in terms of health.

 

It's actually very well designed, and the only let down is the number of bugs that need to be fixed.