Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[Omophorus]

What focus? If you think 1 player attacking you is being focused...

 

Marauders/sentinelas can live 5/9s longer than ANY class when focused (well maybe assassin/shadow can come close to it )

 

Any immunity of this kind should NOT have made it to PvP, its PvP design 101. Unless your intent is to bring only 3/8 classess to PvP.

 

Marauder/sentinel

Assassin/shadow (but if tanked specced skill at least has SOME sense to it)

Mercs/Commandos

 

Immunity to stuff skills need to be looked at.

 

I think you're overall being moderately effective arguing your case, I'd only like to present one counterpoint.

 

Without UR/GbtF, Marauder/Sentinel would be just as squishy as Op/Scoundrel (probably even squishier), without any real ability to escape, much less enter, combat at will. Our little 4 second vanish can be enough to LOS or escape a brawl, depending on the situation. It can also frequently not be enough to escape, at which point you're pulled/gap closed and melted.

 

If you're going to address UR/GbtF, then the entire class needs an overhaul, because you can't have a melee-only class with limited CC, limited survivability, and no ability to enter or leave combat on its own terms.

 

You know perfectly well as a Sc how squishy Mar/Sents are without cooldowns (by your own admission, you like killing them). I'm sure you also know how easy the other primary defensive cooldown is to counter (not even bringing up Saber Ward... 3m cooldown is barely relevant in PVP).

 

If you're going to remove the best survivability tool from a squishy melee class with poor battlefield control (combination of CC and ability to fight in locations/times of its own choosing), what's your suggestion to ensure that the class remains viable, instead of being a free kill?

 

Friendly reminder, a dead DPS does no damage, no matter how theoretically strong they are.

[Darth_Sookie]

I think you're overall being moderately effective arguing your case, I'd only like to present one counterpoint.

 

Without UR/GbtF, Marauder/Sentinel would be just as squishy as Op/Scoundrel (probably even squishier), without any real ability to escape, much less enter, combat at will. Our little 4 second vanish can be enough to LOS or escape a brawl, depending on the situation. It can also frequently not be enough to escape, at which point you're pulled/gap closed and melted.

 

If you're going to address UR/GbtF, then the entire class needs an overhaul, because you can't have a melee-only class with limited CC, limited survivability, and no ability to enter or leave combat on its own terms.

 

You know perfectly well as a Sc how squishy Mar/Sents are without cooldowns (by your own admission, you like killing them). I'm sure you also know how easy the other primary defensive cooldown is to counter (not even bringing up Saber Ward... 3m cooldown is barely relevant in PVP).

 

If you're going to remove the best survivability tool from a squishy melee class with poor battlefield control (combination of CC and ability to fight in locations/times of its own choosing), what's your suggestion to ensure that the class remains viable, instead of being a free kill?

 

Friendly reminder, a dead DPS does no damage, no matter how theoretically strong they are.

 

You have practically the same armor as a juggernauts but have an additional mitigation cd (cloak of pain).

[Chaosmagistrate]

You have practically the same armor as a juggernauts but have an additional mitigation cd (cloak of pain).

 

And Juggernauts, naturally have Guardian Leap, a second interrupt/CC through Force Push, a ranged attack-does ok damage, an AoE slow, guard, and two taunts.

 

Can spec for hard stuns, but the tree is really meh right now. Can spec for CC immunity, and the Jugg Rage tree is better than the Mara Rage tree in terms of damage.

 

Isolating context is not intellgient, nor is it objective in a debate.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[Chaosmagistrate]

How did this thread go from a Shadow complaining that he doesn't want to learn to stun and watch the Mara's resolve....

 

to the same Shadow complaining about not winning 1v2s, with the enemies on vent or being coordinated....

 

to the same Shadow complaining about not winning 1v2s because the Mara has a pocket healer....

 

to Scoundrels crying about UR. Scrapper Scs are one of the counters to Maras, esp Anni Maras.

 

If UR was taken away and Force Push and Saber Throw was returned or a hard stun was given to the Mara, would people cry more or cry less?

[Raansu]

If UR was taken away and Force Push and Saber Throw was returned or a hard stun was given to the Mara, would people cry more or cry less?

 

I'd say more... The amount of destruction we could cause with a hard stun/force push/30m saber throw would be more devistating than a silly 5 second damage reduction. I'd gladly give up guarded by the force for a hard stun and force push that resets my leap.

 

You have practically the same armor as a juggernauts but have an additional mitigation cd (cloak of pain).

 

One wears heavy armor, one wears medium. That is definitely not "practically the same armor."

Edited March 15, 2012 by Raansu

[GrandMike]

Ah well, enjoy your OP class while you can, not gonna be long now though

[gibmachine]

I dont think so. The class is not OP and the spell is not OP right now cos all we have are very messy warzones cos is full of pickups.

 

But this ability will be OP when rated wz if is not changed. Any smart player knows why.

 

Why? Cause smart player doesn't know to stun or snare marauder that has big red bubble over him? Not very smart if you ask me.

[thebaldwin]

 

One wears heavy armor, one wears medium. That is definitely not "practically the same armor."

 

If your definition of the word "practically" means "similar in appereance" then he's dead accurate! You know brown robes and all.

[Temeluchus]

This thread needs more examples of "Correlation does not imply causation" and " I got killed by a Mara,who already walk a fine line between great and worthless,therefore we need to nerf them"

 

Want to know what baseless nerfs or changes can do to Maras? Ask some general beta testers(which I was) what life was like as a Mara when things like Fury,Predation and Berserk didn't exist.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Krytycal]

I have no problems killing marauders with my darkness sin and pyro PT. Without undying rage they'd just be pushovers. Edited March 15, 2012 by Krytycal

[Chaosmagistrate]

Ah well, enjoy your OP class while you can, not gonna be long now though

 

I'm actually excited to see what the 1.2 class overhauls look like. Everytime Blizzard refunded our talent points, the changes altered the playstyle heavily.

 

I would love to see how the dominos fall, so to see who are the "real" players, because the ones who are versatile now, will easily transition, while all the others will be left in the dust.

 

Not going to be arrogant and say that I will easily transition on my two mains, but nonetheless, I'm hoping the changes will be pretty extensive, just to get some new flavor.

[Chaosmagistrate]

I have no problems killing marauders with my darkness sin and pyro PT. Without undying rage they'd just be pushovers.

 

But according to these forums, you play two of the three most overpowered specs/ACs-the other third being the one that you are calling pushovers...so obviously your opinon cannot count:p

 

And yo!! Did you not watch the tourney? It's represent yo. VGs/PTs mega-op cuz they won!!

[Krytycal]

But according to these forums, you play two of the three most overpowered specs/ACs-the other third being the one that you are calling pushovers...so obviously your opinon cannot count:p

 

And yo!! Did you not watch the tourney? It's represent yo. VGs/PTs mega-op cuz they won!!

 

I also play a marauder, so make that 3/3.

 

Truth is, without undying rage there would be no reason to play a marauder over a pyro PT or darkness assassin.

 

 

That's a video of whom I consider the best marauder in HoG atm (Torque) showing some duels at 9:40. We've fought plenty of times, and right now I'd say the win rate is pretty even (50/50) if he times everything right versus my pyro and sin in 1vs1s (which is where Marauders are supposed to excel). Without Undying Rage the win split would be closer to 80/20 in my favor. I don't even wan to imagine how it would be for marauders who are not as good as Torque.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Krytycal

[Wrenthirtysix]

You have to run from them when they turn red. I also suggest a stun at 30% + 1-2 sec burstdown. If they are full resolve you can still root.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Lulz cool story Brah.

 

Nowhere do I say that Austin should listen to me.

 

L2Read.

 

Better players adapt, and if your reading comprehension was up to par, you would understand my disclaimer.

 

I'm clearly pointing out that the OP has refused to acknowledge the counters to UR.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[crazyambo]

Let's see.

 

average player: tunnel marauder put resolve on dr kill him kill him!!!

 

 

good player: not complain about losing 1v1, doesnt spam ccs on marauder until he uses his godmode ult.

 

 

Thus we have this topic, you are a bad player.

[Chaosmagistrate]

I also play a marauder, so make that 3/3.

 

Truth is, without undying rage there would be no reason to play a marauder over a pyro PT or darkness assassin.

 

 

That's a video of whom I consider the best marauder in HoG atm (Torque) showing some duels at 9:40. We've fought plenty of times, and right now I'd say the win rate is pretty even (50/50) if he times everything right versus my pyro and sin in 1vs1s (which is where Marauders are supposed to excel). Without Undying Rage the win split would be closer to 80/20 in my favor. I don't even wan to imagine how it would be for marauders who are not as good as Torque.

 

Good video. It's refreshing to see a video which doesn't only showcase winning situations. It was really nice to see how Torque changed up his approach in a subsequent duel with you.

[DarthWalt]

The issue is WE ARE NOT F IN PALLIES!!!!!!

 

 

Pallies wear Plate armor and have massive amounts of damage deduction ON TOP OF BUBBLES!!!!!!!

 

That was the issue I know I played WoW and was face rolled by them cause of all they had to bring.

 

 

Maras dont get a single bit of def ablitys to offset med armor thats might as well be light. We also dont have the ablity to heal other then random DoT crits in 1 spec. A 20% damage redux does not make up for lack of armor.

 

Look mara can be beasts when you get someone behind one that understands how to play them. They are in fact an extreamly hard class to play well as you have a ton of things to manage. We are not bubble dins that can sit and faceroll people and when they see they might get killed by the 5 poeple attacking them they cant just heal to full and give everyone the finger.

 

I truely suggest you learn the class b4 you make comment about something you clearly do not understand and have likely never played yourself.

[contingency]

First, you're talking about the wrong ability. See:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage

 

The point is that they remain fully offensive while gaining a tremendous amount of defense comparable to a paladin bubble. Not to mention, a 90 second cooldown? I have no idea what they were thinking when they were implementing this ability. It's for the lack of a better term: grossly overpowered and by far the best defensive cooldown in game at the current moment.

 

Losing 50% of your hitpoints and gaining a 99% imunity to damage for 5 seconds isnt what i would call overpowered. you would only want to use this at really low health to get the last 2-3 hits in before you croaked.

 

its totally situational, hence a last ditch attempt to whack something before you die. using this right from the start for a level 50 for example would be very very very bad. 15k health pool down to 7.5kish for 5 seconds of immunity? heh i think not

Edited March 15, 2012 by contingency

[Rheeling]

Losing 50% of your hitpoints and gaining a 99% imunity to damage for 5 seconds isnt what i would call overpowered. you would only want to use this at really low health to get the last 2-3 hits in before you croaked.

 

its totally situational, hence a last ditch attempt to whack something before you die. using this right from the start for a level 50 for example would be very very very bad. 15k health pool down to 7.5kish for 5 seconds of immunity? heh i think not

 

Funny how people don't realize that the extra 2-3 hits we get in from UR is no different than the extra 2-3 hits people get in on us while the stun us. Marauders can't actually stun people and continue attacking them, so I like to consider our UR as our stun replacement. Except we can be CC'ed while we use it, and it's pretty much something we can only use at the end of our lifespan as you said.

[Damsyl]

I'm going to say this...And there are only three things that I will say on this post.

 

1.) You started the post off with WoW Paladins. This is not World of Warcraft, Marauders/ Sents are not Paladins. If anything, a Mercenary is a paladin. If you really want to complain about classes being "overpowered" maybe you should look at the Tracer spammers or Grav spammers. Again, this is not WoW, so instead of trying to ruin PvP with your QQ power, go back to WoW and leave the Marauders and Sents alone.

 

2.) LEARN TO STUN AND CC!

 

3.) Quit PvP while you're at it too, since obviously you're terrible at whatever class you play.

 

Edit: This class doesn't have a stun, the only CC they have is broken once someone hits the target, they also don't have a knockback. Instead of filling the resolve bar of the Sent/Mara, you should learn when to CC and learn how to not fill up the resolve bar. You stun a Mara/Sent with this ability up, the 4 seconds they had to survive and kill someone is gone. Unless they have a healer at their hip, they are going to die.

 

Me thinks you need to be smarter with your assumptions and think about all the possibilities that could happen while this Sent/Mara is popping this ability before you cry and call a nerf.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Damsyl

[AGoldCrayon]

It lasts 4-5s too long. And is coupled with another immune o dmage skill on even SHORTER CD Period.

How do you propose i cap node with opponents around if not KILLING them eh?

 

These kind of posts shows noobnes and lack of big picture on their posters.

 

Only when you spec into it, deep in the annihilation tree. Not all marauders have this, so any changes to UR are affecting more than just annihilate. Not to mention that you're ignoring a couple of key things. First, your damage output is reduced by 100% minus any dots still currently on target when you force camo. Coming out of camo early also ends damage immunity early.

 

Second, Force camo does not break roots or slows in the annihilate tree, thats carnage. So if you're implying a marauder is just going to force camo and run 30 meters away by the time it ends, you're either ignorant, or being intentionally misleading.

 

Lastly, the annihilate spec has a glaring weakness that makes up for this added survivability. Bleeds can be cleansed by healers, which severely reduces the dps output of the spec. This may not be an issue now, but it will be in rated, where healers know what they are doing. Bleeds can easily make up 30-40% of a marauders dps. If you want to nerf a marauders survivability, which at most should only extend to the annihilate tree, as it is the only tree that can provide such 'extended' (and I use that word in the loosest of possible definitions) survivability, they need to ensure a sustainability of their dps first, otherwise you're breaking that spec.

 

edit: For talking about someone elses' 'noobness', you do a pretty good job of ignoring the big picture yourself.

Edited March 15, 2012 by AGoldCrayon

[Chaosmagistrate]

Only when you spec into it, deep in the annihilation tree. Not all marauders have this, so any changes to UR are affecting more than just annihilate. Not to mention that you're ignoring a couple of key things. First, your damage output is reduced by 100% minus any dots still currently on target when you force camo. Coming out of camo early also ends damage immunity early.

 

Second, Force camo does not break roots or slows in the annihilate tree, thats carnage. So if you're implying a marauder is just going to force camo and run 30 meters away by the time it ends, you're either ignorant, or being intentionally misleading.

 

Lastly, the annihilate spec has a glaring weakness that makes up for this added survivability. Bleeds can be cleansed by healers, which severely reduces the dps output of the spec. This may not be an issue now, but it will be in rated, where healers know what they are doing. Bleeds can easily make up 30-40% of a marauders dps. If you want to nerf an annihilate marauders survivability, they need to ensure a sustainability of their dps first, otherwise you're breaking that spec.

 

You should also mention that Assassins and Ops self-cleanse also clears DoTs, pertaining to the subject of cleansing.

 

And in terms of defense, I don't see how UR is that much better for a node defense. Ops do it better. With sap, smart Orbital Strike, some ranged attacks, and Vanish, rinse repeat, run around the pillar or kite on the ramps, they make better defenders waiting for reinforcements. Shadows are good as well at harassing cappers.

[mrlymes]

in my opinion mara def cooldowns are too powerful in WZ's.

they need to lose 1 skill or make it 3min each.

sure they dont top dmg but who cares about that? brust is still quiet good.

 

people still talking about TM are just bad. arsenal merc is useless. no mobility, no defensive cooldowns. they dont even have a kick so there is no way they are able to snipe a healer.

sage is even more usefull because they are slowing alle the time.

 

rated WZ's will be dominated by mara, you will see.

 

but hey TM IS SO OVERPOWERED!

[gibmachine]

Funny how people don't realize that the extra 2-3 hits we get in from UR is no different than the extra 2-3 hits people get in on us while the stun us. Marauders can't actually stun people and continue attacking them, so I like to consider our UR as our stun replacement. Except we can be CC'ed while we use it, and it's pretty much something we can only use at the end of our lifespan as you said.

 

Don't bother trying to make sense man. After all it has been "concluded" in thread that UR needs nerfing. Who needs actual sense when entire 80 pages worth of thread is so unanimous.