Ghostcrawler offers some food for thought....

[Rahl_Windsong]

The problem is I am not sure if the Hero engine can do things like continents and large zones with lots of players in each zone, honestly if SWTOR had a places like Ironforge, when it was the place to be it would probably crash the server.

 

I think Bioware actually designed SWTOR to segregate players into smaller groups so that the game engine can handle it...I could be wrong but it really does appear that way. I have never seen more then 100 players in one area, have you? I don't even think I can recall 100 in one area I don't think I have ever seen three digits...

[Orduno]

Remember, you only have a problem with WoW and/or like TOR because you're a fanboy. There's certainly no other reason to have either opinion!

[Denadanier]

The main thing I took from that is how challenge modes as a tool for longevity is a great idea! Not sure how they envisage it; but an mmo with time trial and survival dungeons/FPs for 1/2/4/8/16 players etc would be great they could then list your time/how far you got against your sever and out of game against all servers; give people something to aim for/to beat. Imo it would be one area where there is no need for a reward as bragging rights and the personal challenge is what would make it fun.

[Blackardin]

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street recently posted an insight into what Blizzard thought they did right and wrong when developing WoW's most recent expansion.

 

Yes, yes, I know....I can almost hear the fanboys reaching for that "Post Reply" button to feverishly type something along the lines of: "This isn't WoW!!!! You're Ghostcrawler in disguise, here to just try to get people back to WoW!!!". Blah, blah. Sigh.

 

I'm going to take a read on this when I get back, OP, as I agree that it is a good idea to take feedback where it lies.

 

However, my concern is with taking advice from Ghostcrawler. In my opinion, he is the reason that Wow is failing. My belief, based on my seven years of game play and raiding is that he single handedly destroyed the game from his pandering to hard core players, to his decision on lock-outs, to gear distribution, all the way to end game raiding.

 

It was his decisions, his direction that is the reason my entire guild left that game and came here. Wow was a great, great game prior his grand scheme being introduced.

[Blackardin]

The main thing I took from that is how challenge modes as a tool for longevity is a great idea! Not sure how they envisage it; but an mmo with time trial and survival dungeons/FPs for 1/2/4/8/16 players etc would be great they could then list your time/how far you got against your sever and out of game against all servers; give people something to aim for/to beat. Imo it would be one area where there is no need for a reward as bragging rights and the personal challenge is what would make it fun.

 

Bragging rights and elitism is what destroyed wow as a game for the masses. Ramping up content to only those elite players is what frustrated and destroyed the casual guild environment, caused the collapse of the casual guild and left the game in the state it is now: elite players already defeating the content and leaving, casual players tired of banging their heads off the wall and leaving.

 

The concept of regular and hard mode was a brilliant one. The implementation was a disaster. Had they managed that correctly (sort of like battlegrounds, and arenas) to cater to all levels of play, it would have worked. They did not. It failed.

[sharkfinsix]

SWTOR does a lot of things better than WOW, but how "zones" aka planets are laid out isn't one of them.

 

 

100% agree, no clue why the planet below isn't "loading" up while you run thru the orbital station. No clue why i have to go thru so many load screens and airlocks just to switch locations, it has basically crippled my play to the point where i am only will to go thru all that shuttle > a orbitial station > airlock > ship > airlock > orbital station > shuttle crap once per day. If i need to do it 2x that day, i just log off, would rather do something "Fun" with my time. When leveling an alt, Once i get to a planet (lets say belsavis for exmaple), I do not leave it for any reason until i am done questing on it because of all the load screens and airlocks. So this design decision really does have a major impact on the population and how they move around the game (in in my case refuse to move around)

 

I love this game, but this one aspect is driving me nuts....

 

 

Please let us have a bind spot we can recall too (anywhere in the galaxy you have discovered, not just the quick travel on the planet you are on, and not just the fleet recall), that would be a start!

Edited March 13, 2012 by sharkfinsix

[Denadanier]

It doesn't need to be impossible to complete though, that's the point of time trial/survival etc. Survival could be never ending with mobs getting more difficult as you proceed, its more about haw far you can get. The aim for most might not necessarily be to get to the top of a table but to see where they place upon it and to try and improve.

 

I have always preferred PVP to PVE in MMOs as I never feel I get enough out of PVE...so I beat the hardest endgame raid and get the best gear in the game...what now? I stand around in a social area and look pretty? I do the same thing over an over again? Challenges allow you to rank PVE, you can see how you perform and it gives incentive to get better gear, optimise specs, rotations etc as you are trying to improve your time/distance. It might not be for everyone but it would add to longevity for me as (not SWTOR exclusive) with MMOs i get to end game and PVP, normally in a repetitive set of instances which after a while wears thin so I move on to another game, come back for expansions, rinse and repeat. But at least with PVP the players add a variable which is challenging, just because you did well in one match doesn't mean the next will go so well, PVE is just about learning what attacks come next from bosses and how to counter them, once you know that there is no challenge; there needs to be a way of ranking it to make it more exciting!

 

Edit: and by bragging rights I don't mean people would do it to be no1, being no100 out of 1000 is still bragging rights and if your 1000 you would want to improve hence item incentive is not required.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Denadanier

[Vyradder]

You know what game really nailed exploration?

 

Skyrim

 

Been playing that since launch and both my son and I are STILL finding a ton of stuff around the world.

 

I don't know if that level of depth could be brought into an MMO, but that should be the goal.

[Blackardin]

I love this game, but this one aspect is driving me nuts....

 

Honestly. The difference that I am seeing in this team, as opposed to the Wow team is their willingness to read and take in information from the player community, from other sources, from past games. In short, the lack of ego and understanding that there is always room to learn.

 

The Wow team did not have that. The assumption was very different. When you hear developers making statements such as "We want players to do x, so we will do x", rather then, "The players want Y and we are looking into that possibility", it is a clear indication that they are not listening and not willing to produce a desirable product.

 

Certainly no team can focus their entire effort on pandering to the masses, but they can maintain a willingness to remain focused on producing a positive playing experience from the point of view of the player rather then the developer.

 

The day that Sony admitted that they do not listen to their customers, was the day they set the stage for Wow to step up and crush them...and Wow did. The day that Ghostcrawler began saying, "WE want the players to", he created an environment ripe for the picking....and there is where SW came in.

[Azzras]

Honestly. The difference that I am seeing in this team, as opposed to the Wow team is their willingness to read and take in information from the player community, from other sources, from past games. In short, the lack of ego and understanding that there is always room to learn.

 

The Wow team did not have that. The assumption was very different. When you hear developers making statements such as "We want players to do x, so we will do x", rather then, "The players want Y and we are looking into that possibility", it is a clear indication that they are not listening and not willing to produce a desirable product.

 

Certainly no team can focus their entire effort on pandering to the masses, but they can maintain a willingness to remain focused on producing a positive playing experience from the point of view of the player rather then the developer.

 

The day that Sony admitted that they do not listen to their customers, was the day they set the stage for Wow to step up and crush them...and Wow did. The day that Ghostcrawler began saying, "WE want the players to", he created an environment ripe for the picking....and there is where SW came in.

 

I have to agree with you.

 

I have never seen another dev team listen to the community the way BW does.

 

They actually listen to our feedback.

 

Crazy, but in a good way.

 

[thominoh]

So what Ghostcrawler really wants is EQ1 back again with updated technology.. LOL I really don't see much changing in this genre anymore.. It has been taken over by the FPS genre and Xboxers.. The days of long drawn out character careers are over.. Sadly..

 

Too much of the paying customers want insta travel, and private mobs all at their beckon call.. The days of social open world gaming are ???? .. I have to say, I'm anxiously waiting to see how GW2 plans to address open world progression and how fast.. Rift teased me in Beta then dropped the ball completely before making it past 3 months.. It was anything BUT open world gaming..

 

Personally I would like to ban instancing with 2 exceptions.. 1) Rare class epic storylines.. and 2) Social Guild Raids like original Molten Core.. I'm a huge fan of open limit raiding.. If I could go back to MC again but remove the 40 man limit, that would be perfect.. BRING 50 if you want..

[AsheraII]

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street recently posted an insight into what Blizzard thought they did right and wrong when developing WoW's most recent expansion.

 

<som snipage>

 

How could this apply to TOR?: Well, the planets do essentially end up "scattering" players much like the different zones in Cataclysm did. He also touches on the subject of "exploration" (the bit I emboldened) and how he thinks it is important to ensure that giving the players opportunities to explore is quite important.

 

The co-founders of Bioware also talked pre-launch about the need for exploration in TOR and how that activity is important. But some complaints have remarked how there isn't enough opportunity to do that at the moment.

For end-game, I don't think it's too bad. There's actually just 2 planets (Ilum and Belsavis) for "end game grinding purposes". Almost all the end-game instance content is on the fleet, with some exceptions being the ones on Ilum, which is still an end-game zone. The fleet is an "everybody" zone. Levelcapped players still go there to trade, even if there wasn't any instanced end-game content there, they'd still go there, so it's very conveniently combined there.

 

Looking even closer at it:

Belsavis is only for a small number of dailies. It's rarely difficult to form a group to do these.

Ilum combines PvP, Dailies and group-instances. Again, it's not hard to find any group there for any one of these forms of content, especially not for the PvP content and the dailies.

The fleet combines trading, supplies and instances, Most people actively looking to do some instances are found here. Almost ALL instances: both normal mode and hard mode, both operations and flashpoints. With the exception of the Ilum instances, I don't find this scattered at all. It's actually closer together than WoW has ever had them, while still providing a logical reason (the docking areas) for having them so close together than WoW's insta-teleporting system.

 

 

The above applies to TOR in some respects too. Some complaints about TOR have been centred on the fact that progression through the "zones" (planets) feels a little too linear, whilst not providing enough opportunities to just do other things, like explore.

I agree somewhat. But it also seems to depend a little on the theme of the planet. Voss has a very open and explorable feel to it, for example.

But how "explorable" can you make a city planet? One block of streets after another, so yes, things will quickly feel linear. Nar Shaddaa definitely has too many "dead ends", where you can reach places only in one specific way. Corellia on the other hand is pretty well done. Maybe still a few roadblocks too many, but it is actually pretty explorable. That could be improved, but it's already rather well done.

 

Blizzard have obviously realised that one of the keys to remaining successful is to not ignore any one particular playerbase too much. There have been complaints that perhaps Bioware are currently forsaking one type of playstyle (i.e. those who like to continue progressing their "end game" characters) in favour of focusing more on another type of player (i.e. those who like "rolling alts").

And it took Actiblizzion more than 5 years to realize that, and to be honest, they still got it wrong. Compared to Vanilla, there's VERY little to actually go for: every activity ends up in the exact same gear grind where every other activity ends up as well: either raid or PvP, or get lost. They know they're losing faith from more and more players who aren't interrested in either, so they keep tossing them bones now and then. But the meat that was once on those bones still goes to Raiding and PvP.

 

How does the above apply to TOR?: Well again, Ghostcrawler touches on getting players out into the world, and to give them the opportunity to see others whilst out there too. Instead of allowing players to "portal" about too much. One of the recent complaints about TOR has been how the game "splits" up the playerbase a little too much, giving the feeling of "empty worlds".

I'm still not convinced on the player base being "split up". They're split up by level across the planets, but that's about it. And there really isn't much reason for a lvl 50 to go to Nar Shaddaa, except maybe on some companion-mission. But to be honest, a levelcapped character having no reason to go to Westfall has never been an issue either, has it?

 

He also obviously realises that "fresh" gameplay is needed, and it should be offered in ways that don't feel too "grindy". Some could say that's what TOR is already doing to some regard. But one thing he does touch on, that TOR isn't offering at the moment, is the opportunity to get involved in different and yet interesting NPC factions.

On the other hand, does WoW have companion-affection? There's a lot of potential to that game mechanic for TOR. Bioware could simply raise the maximum amount of affection points to 20,000 and have it raised less through purchasable gifts or repeatable conversations, but make the actually working gifts harder to aquire through playable missions instead, both solo and group missions. I half suspect that that was the initial idea, but was deemed "too grindy". At the same time, I bet something like this will be (re)implemented in the future. First get people hooked, then give them a grind when they get bored. I for one am very happy that there's no such thing as factions in this game. I was really amazed at first that they weren't present, but found I prefer their absence.

 

And lastly, he shows an understanding that getting content out as fast as possible (within reason) is of paramount importance, and not to wait too long before getting it to the servers.

I may be a Bioware fan, but you have to admit: Bioware understands this even better. 4 months into the game, and we're already looking at the second content patch. That's quite a bit faster than Actiblizzion has ever been.

 

 

Now, no doubt some of Ghostcrawler's post contains moments which may make one want to say "Well duh!", but on the other hand it's hard not to ignore the honesty and truth in his post.

 

Like I said in the title of this thread, it's food for thought.

 

Flame away.....

It is, but keep in mind, WoW is WoW, TOR is TOR, and I rather see it stay that way. I played WoW for years, but I rather not see TOR go the downhill track that WoW took, with its everchanging game phylosophies. And with every change Actiblizzion offered to stop people from leaving, it turned out the same: too little, too late. They definitely were on the right track in Vanilla and in early TBC. But after that, they p-ed off one group of players after another with their everchanging "focus". Very few ex-WoW players EVER return. The few that do after being promised that things changed for the better quit after only a few hours again, because those "changes" are tattered band-aids that can't even hold the scraps together.

[Vagessel]

That one sentence the OP highlighted in red has merit and it's something that has been an ongoing discussion on numerous MMO forums. It is the reason that I bring myself to accept the long travel times.

 

However. I would NOT take anything said by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street as MMO gospel. From his earliest posts near the end of the Burning Crusade he demonstrated an incredible amount of hubris and poor development lead of the game to send it where it is now. He was given the helm of the ship of a maintenance crew while the cream of Blizzard development was funneled to their next MMO project.

 

That whole post reflects a stubborn refusal to acknowledge poor expansion design decisions ( there are "as many" players who want hard content as those who don't) - and refuses to accept how his decisions on class balance, talent tree redesign and difficulty levels resulted in the hemorrhaging of subs the game is having that has brought them to the hilariously desperate Scroll of Resirrection campaign.

 

Talking about the topic of open world exploration is great. Giving any sort of "expert authority" cred to that guy is just - not good.

[asbalana]

I wouldn't attack him that badly, because it was thanks to him that paladins could finally tank and have a taunt button. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

We all have our opinion. To me Ghostcrawler is an elitiest jerk that holds the "average" player in contempt. He has a low opinion of anyone who is not a top tier raider.

 

I remember the launch of Cata and how many people, who loved their Pally's, where shocked at Holy Power and how bad it was. Ghostcrawler's response was to laugh at them and opine that too many "bads" were actually playing Pallys well and the changes were needed to separate the goods from the bads. I remember his comments and contempt for the "Wrath Babies". I remember how early on Blizz had to muzzle him.

 

It is no surprise that WOW lost almost 2 million players post Cata. The only surprise that I have is that Street still has a job.

 

So now we have Ghostcrawler v2.0 - a kinder gentler GC who is more in tune with the players. Will the real GC please stand up.

 

I read his blog and indeed much of what he has said is true. Will MOP address most of the harm that Cata did? I don't know. That remains to be seen. I think that the Captain of the Titanic learned not to steer his ship into icebergs and could have waxed elequently on the virture of not ramming them, but could he have resisted the temptation to do the same again if he had another chance?

[thominoh]

good points Vag..

 

I just wanted to add as well.. For me and friends, we left WoW and Rift for the same reasons.. We hated the tiered end game grind.. It felt empty without purpose.. Even with my 50 Inq I feel the same way.. Why do I log on? To do dailies that I've done time and time again? So I have a ton of alts to experience those storylines.. but when that is done, then I'm done.. I want more, and that doesn't mean zone or quest content, but more sandbox elements..

 

One thing that intrigues me with GW2 is this WvWvW PvP battles?.. I'm curious how this 2 week long battles will turn out.. Spending time building up your base, while trying to take over an undeclared one, and attacking your other 2 enemies as well..... I loved the old AV battles in WoW and Wintergrasp..

 

To me, tier progression end game belongs in Diablo2.. LOL

[Incendergel]

 

Paladin weapon quest anyone???

 

 

So true. Upon retail launch the only way to get the quest done was to be the first person after a server restart to try and complete it. If you failed that was it for the whole week....for EVERY PALADIN due to the bug in the quest.

 

Oddly enough I recall many a Paladin gunning for that after a restart - lol. Fun in a painful way now that I look back. But one of the more epic times for such a powerful weapon. Another reason why Paladins had so much hate

 

Peace.

 

Love.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Incendergel

[Vlaxitov]

It is, but keep in mind, WoW is WoW, TOR is TOR, and I rather see it stay that way. I played WoW for years, but I rather not see TOR go the downhill track that WoW took, with its everchanging game phylosophies.

 

WoW is WoW and ToR is WoW post TBC only with less substance.

 

How can you not see this? Every commercial MMO since TBC has been set up just like TBC. Streamlined leveling, recycled dungeons, welfare currency loot systems, non competitive leveling PvP systems with welfare currency. ToR isn't going downhill because they started at the bottom.

 

Today's MMO devs think they can design a new release as though it were a shake & bake expansion of an already sucessful game and get away with it.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Incendergel]

good points Vag..

 

I just wanted to add as well.. For me and friends, we left WoW and Rift for the same reasons.. We hated the tiered end game grind.. It felt empty without purpose.. Even with my 50 Inq I feel the same way.. Why do I log on? To do dailies that I've done time and time again? So I have a ton of alts to experience those storylines.. but when that is done, then I'm done.. I want more, and that doesn't mean zone or quest content, but more sandbox elements..

 

One thing that intrigues me with GW2 is this WvWvW PvP battles?.. I'm curious how this 2 week long battles will turn out.. Spending time building up your base, while trying to take over an undeclared one, and attacking your other 2 enemies as well..... I loved the old AV battles in WoW and Wintergrasp..

 

To me, tier progression end game belongs in Diablo2.. LOL

 

Diablo...you guys/gals read the news that they are not releasing Arena play? Yeah, I went there Sort of tied to this I guess in that they would rather release the game before it is really finished. The almighty dollar, huh?

 

I've never played GW but like the idea. WvWvW is interesting although it looked pretty slow in a recent video post I was watching. While not exactly 2 weeks long if you played WoW at all remember the release of AV? Some of those battles took days to finish believe it or not. You had quests which needed to be done that required summoning of bosses, etc. Battle raged for days and it wasn't uncommon to logout after several hours, sleep, go to work/school, only to log back in and pick up in the same game. Often times seeing the same people you played with before. Yet soon thereafter Blizzard made a change and poof, it was gone.

 

Did people want it that way? Hard to say - glass half full, half empty I guess. I'll say this though, there was a reason, and sense of excitment, to log back in and see how it unfolded. Better yet same could be said back when playing retail DaOC. The sense if urgency taking keeps so you don't notify the alliance a raid was in progress. The sense of unknown while questing outside the main gates never knowing when a higher level player would kill you. There are reasons to do somethign and a sense of urgency. A risk. A reward. Mythic continued the trend further when they released Darkness Falls. A reason to take keeps, controll them, to defend. Once inside more, better, faster everything to include a ZERG required battle royal to kill the PvE boss at the bottom (yeah, I got a sword for my Thane off him). Stand and fight when you lose it, log and come back later, or rush to their enterence and hold them as long as you can.

 

Reason to play.

 

Diablo retail launch. Something as simple as a 4 player co-op game with a pvp flag. Enter the catacombs there, light your torch and off you go questing. Someone enters your game. You don't know if they are a friend or foe - nor they you. You work your way further and further down never knowing what lays around the next turn. You chuckle, cast a scroll of teleportation for the fella up top. You say - take the portal...they do, and suddenly get attacked by a bunch of angry mobs and die...collect their ear and off you go to further explore the depths...

 

Again, excitement, reason.

 

Fun.

[Valkirus]

For end-game, I don't think it's too bad. There's actually just 2 planets (Ilum and Belsavis) for "end game grinding purposes". Almost all the end-game instance content is on the fleet, with some exceptions being the ones on Ilum, which is still an end-game zone. The fleet is an "everybody" zone. Levelcapped players still go there to trade, even if there wasn't any instanced end-game content there, they'd still go there, so it's very conveniently combined there.

 

Looking even closer at it:

Belsavis is only for a small number of dailies. It's rarely difficult to form a group to do these.

Ilum combines PvP, Dailies and group-instances. Again, it's not hard to find any group there for any one of these forms of content, especially not for the PvP content and the dailies.

The fleet combines trading, supplies and instances, Most people actively looking to do some instances are found here. Almost ALL instances: both normal mode and hard mode, both operations and flashpoints. With the exception of the Ilum instances, I don't find this scattered at all. It's actually closer together than WoW has ever had them, while still providing a logical reason (the docking areas) for having them so close together than WoW's insta-teleporting system.

 

 

 

I agree somewhat. But it also seems to depend a little on the theme of the planet. Voss has a very open and explorable feel to it, for example.

But how "explorable" can you make a city planet? One block of streets after another, so yes, things will quickly feel linear. Nar Shaddaa definitely has too many "dead ends", where you can reach places only in one specific way. Corellia on the other hand is pretty well done. Maybe still a few roadblocks too many, but it is actually pretty explorable. That could be improved, but it's already rather well done.

 

 

And it took Actiblizzion more than 5 years to realize that, and to be honest, they still got it wrong. Compared to Vanilla, there's VERY little to actually go for: every activity ends up in the exact same gear grind where every other activity ends up as well: either raid or PvP, or get lost. They know they're losing faith from more and more players who aren't interrested in either, so they keep tossing them bones now and then. But the meat that was once on those bones still goes to Raiding and PvP.

 

 

I'm still not convinced on the player base being "split up". They're split up by level across the planets, but that's about it. And there really isn't much reason for a lvl 50 to go to Nar Shaddaa, except maybe on some companion-mission. But to be honest, a levelcapped character having no reason to go to Westfall has never been an issue either, has it?

 

 

On the other hand, does WoW have companion-affection? There's a lot of potential to that game mechanic for TOR. Bioware could simply raise the maximum amount of affection points to 20,000 and have it raised less through purchasable gifts or repeatable conversations, but make the actually working gifts harder to aquire through playable missions instead, both solo and group missions. I half suspect that that was the initial idea, but was deemed "too grindy". At the same time, I bet something like this will be (re)implemented in the future. First get people hooked, then give them a grind when they get bored. I for one am very happy that there's no such thing as factions in this game. I was really amazed at first that they weren't present, but found I prefer their absence.

 

 

I may be a Bioware fan, but you have to admit: Bioware understands this even better. 4 months into the game, and we're already looking at the second content patch. That's quite a bit faster than Actiblizzion has ever been.

 

 

 

It is, but keep in mind, WoW is WoW, TOR is TOR, and I rather see it stay that way. I played WoW for years, but I rather not see TOR go the downhill track that WoW took, with its everchanging game phylosophies. And with every change Actiblizzion offered to stop people from leaving, it turned out the same: too little, too late. They definitely were on the right track in Vanilla and in early TBC. But after that, they p-ed off one group of players after another with their everchanging "focus". Very few ex-WoW players EVER return. The few that do after being promised that things changed for the better quit after only a few hours again, because those "changes" are tattered band-aids that can't even hold the scraps together.

 

I agree with your comments. Well said.

[ROSS-]

WoW is WoW and ToR is WoW post TBC only with less substance.

 

How can you not see this? Every commercial MMO since TBC has been set up just like TBC. Streamlined leveling, recycled dungeons, welfare currency loot systems, non competitive leveling PvP systems with welfare currency. ToR isn't going downhill because they started at the bottom.

 

Today's MMO devs think they can design a new release as though it were a shake & bake expansion of an already sucessful game and get away with it.

 

its called market forces. developers create what people demand. other games that are not in demand are cancelled/never develop. Eve's 300k subs is not going to inspire many developers to copy their game.

[Vagessel]

I wouldn't attack him that badly, because it was thanks to him that paladins could finally tank and have a taunt button. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Paladins could tank through all of Burning Crusade, before Street took the helm. They also had a taunt button - but it was on a 15 second CD as oppsed to a Warrior's 4 or 8 sec CD.

 

In fact Paladins, for all of BC were THE AoE tanks Warriors and Druids bitterly envied (while at the same time warriors could mitigate more, etc). Doing Shatterd Halls heroic and Hyjal Summit were so much easier with Paladins they were almost required.

 

What GC did with Paladins early in his tenure was to release the new WotLK Paladins on Live after having months of desperate pleas by both Paladin and non Paladin players in the Test server that they were obscenely broken OP. The first day he released them online he had to implement hotfixes because Battleground wins were being determined on the number of Rets the team had. That led to resentment from both Paladin and non Paladin players so intense I don't think it has yet been forgotten.

 

So I guess I'm just trying to reply to your request to be corrected if you remembered it wrong.

[Batozai]

This started like an intresting post but turned (like many others) into this war between MMo's and developers. We have to always remember that the games per se are well made, from WoW to Rift to TOR. They are all the same no matter what aspect of mmos you might like. At the end its like watching my lil girl playing with her dolls, trying to make her barbie (char) look cool with the latest clothes (gear).

 

Having said that ppl might say that x factor in the game is boring, but we got to remember that "boring" is a state of mind, the game didnt get boring, the player is what got bored, from its own point of view. And that is gonna happen with any mmo out there couse its all the same.

 

Yeah GC i a jerk, devs in bioware wont do much better in the end. WoW is at 10mil subs and they are gonna keep going down (never gonna get back up), ToR is at almost 2mil and prolly wont ever see 3mil, becouse its all the same with a different name. They cant fix it so you can have the game so you want so my advise ppl is to relax and enjoy the game untill u get "bored" then just play the next great MMO.

[Mrip]

All of the failures pale in comparison to the ridiculous expansion title and goofy box art. I just don't think I can bring myself to buy or play any game with pandas in the title and on the box. I may as well go play Hello Kitty. Edited March 13, 2012 by Mrip

[Quraswren]

For end-game, I don't think it's too bad. There's actually just 2 planets (Ilum and Belsavis) for "end game grinding purposes". Almost all the end-game instance content is on the fleet, with some exceptions being the ones on Ilum, which is still an end-game zone. The fleet is an "everybody" zone. Levelcapped players still go there to trade, even if there wasn't any instanced end-game content there, they'd still go there, so it's very conveniently combined there.

 

Looking even closer at it:

Belsavis is only for a small number of dailies. It's rarely difficult to form a group to do these.

Ilum combines PvP, Dailies and group-instances. Again, it's not hard to find any group there for any one of these forms of content, especially not for the PvP content and the dailies.

The fleet combines trading, supplies and instances, Most people actively looking to do some instances are found here. Almost ALL instances: both normal mode and hard mode, both operations and flashpoints. With the exception of the Ilum instances, I don't find this scattered at all. It's actually closer together than WoW has ever had them, while still providing a logical reason (the docking areas) for having them so close together than WoW's insta-teleporting system.

 

 

 

I agree somewhat. But it also seems to depend a little on the theme of the planet. Voss has a very open and explorable feel to it, for example.

But how "explorable" can you make a city planet? One block of streets after another, so yes, things will quickly feel linear. Nar Shaddaa definitely has too many "dead ends", where you can reach places only in one specific way. Corellia on the other hand is pretty well done. Maybe still a few roadblocks too many, but it is actually pretty explorable. That could be improved, but it's already rather well done.

 

 

And it took Actiblizzion more than 5 years to realize that, and to be honest, they still got it wrong. Compared to Vanilla, there's VERY little to actually go for: every activity ends up in the exact same gear grind where every other activity ends up as well: either raid or PvP, or get lost. They know they're losing faith from more and more players who aren't interrested in either, so they keep tossing them bones now and then. But the meat that was once on those bones still goes to Raiding and PvP.

 

 

I'm still not convinced on the player base being "split up". They're split up by level across the planets, but that's about it. And there really isn't much reason for a lvl 50 to go to Nar Shaddaa, except maybe on some companion-mission. But to be honest, a levelcapped character having no reason to go to Westfall has never been an issue either, has it?

 

 

On the other hand, does WoW have companion-affection? There's a lot of potential to that game mechanic for TOR. Bioware could simply raise the maximum amount of affection points to 20,000 and have it raised less through purchasable gifts or repeatable conversations, but make the actually working gifts harder to aquire through playable missions instead, both solo and group missions. I half suspect that that was the initial idea, but was deemed "too grindy". At the same time, I bet something like this will be (re)implemented in the future. First get people hooked, then give them a grind when they get bored. I for one am very happy that there's no such thing as factions in this game. I was really amazed at first that they weren't present, but found I prefer their absence.

 

 

I may be a Bioware fan, but you have to admit: Bioware understands this even better. 4 months into the game, and we're already looking at the second content patch. That's quite a bit faster than Actiblizzion has ever been.

 

 

 

It is, but keep in mind, WoW is WoW, TOR is TOR, and I rather see it stay that way. I played WoW for years, but I rather not see TOR go the downhill track that WoW took, with its everchanging game phylosophies. And with every change Actiblizzion offered to stop people from leaving, it turned out the same: too little, too late. They definitely were on the right track in Vanilla and in early TBC. But after that, they p-ed off one group of players after another with their everchanging "focus". Very few ex-WoW players EVER return. The few that do after being promised that things changed for the better quit after only a few hours again, because those "changes" are tattered band-aids that can't even hold the scraps together.

 

Very good post. Well said.

[islander]

I actually agree with GC about the 1-60 revamp success.

 

That was hands down my favorite part of Cataclysm. I leveled an alt just to experience them and the questing was fresh again.

 

The 80-85 leveling content was great, also.

 

His insight on the Cata Heroics was very smart as well. Understanding that they didnt need to dumb down things to Wrath levels but rather come up with different options for end game dailies for people is pretty sharp.

 

Overall, sounds like they are doing a lot of soul searching over there. I still won't be going back while this game is going strong...but there are defintiely lessons for Bioware to take from this.