Ghostcrawler offers some food for thought....

[Tarka]

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street recently posted an insight into what Blizzard thought they did right and wrong when developing WoW's most recent expansion.

 

Yes, yes, I know....I can almost hear the fanboys reaching for that "Post Reply" button to feverishly type something along the lines of: "This isn't WoW!!!! You're Ghostcrawler in disguise, here to just try to get people back to WoW!!!". Blah, blah. Sigh.

 

Firstly, yes, I know this isn't WoW. Secondly, no, I'm not trying to get people away from this game (unlike certain fanboys and girls in these forums). So don't get your panties in a bunch. If you can't read this with an open mind, then perhaps you shouldn't be reading it at all. Just for a few minutes, put aside any prejudices you may have about WoW, and try to prevent yourself from hitting that "Post Reply" button before fully reading and understanding Ghostcrawler's post.

 

The fact is that Bioware hold Blizzard's product in high regard. So any development concerned with Blizzard's product will possibly give Bioware pause for thought on how they continue development with SWTOR.

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4519250

 

Anyhow, below are some snippets which caught my attention, and I think could possibly end up applying to SWTOR in some ways too. Just ignore the fact that he mentions their next expansion (I left those bits in purely to give his words enough context).

 

Q. What didn’t work out as planned?

 

While zones like Uldum and Deepholm look fantastic, they didn’t fit together as well as we’d have liked. In the planning phases, we didn’t think that having scattered end game zones would be a big deal. It turned out to feel a lot weirder than expected. Players ended up teleporting to nearly every destination, and it gave Cataclysm a disjointed feeling, detracting from that feeling of exploration and discovery. We learned that giving players a land to explore, a sense of place, is valuable. Ultimately, the scattered zones and the portals both served to kind of shrink the world, when we want to make the world a place you want to go out and be in. We’re definitely looking forward to getting back to a continent in Mists. We underestimated how important that was.

 

How could this apply to TOR?: Well, the planets do essentially end up "scattering" players much like the different zones in Cataclysm did. He also touches on the subject of "exploration" (the bit I emboldened) and how he thinks it is important to ensure that giving the players opportunities to explore is quite important.

 

The co-founders of Bioware also talked pre-launch about the need for exploration in TOR and how that activity is important. But some complaints have remarked how there isn't enough opportunity to do that at the moment.

 

In addition, while we liked that each zone has a story, questing ended up being too linear. It didn’t feel like you could fly into a zone, find some quest givers, and explore. Instead, you kind of had to start at the beginning and follow all the quests to the end, and if you didn’t like a quest, well, you had to stick with it to get to the next one. We want zones to have an identity, flavor and a story, but we don’t want to railroad players through a zone either.

 

The above applies to TOR in some respects too. Some complaints about TOR have been centred on the fact that progression through the "zones" (planets) feels a little too linear, whilst not providing enough opportunities to just do other things, like explore.

 

...With such a diverse community, the goal is to have experiences that players from all over the spectrum can enjoy. We don’t want to shut anyone out.....

 

Blizzard have obviously realised that one of the keys to remaining successful is to not ignore any one particular playerbase too much. There have been complaints that perhaps Bioware are currently forsaking one type of playstyle (i.e. those who like to continue progressing their "end game" characters) in favour of focusing more on another type of player (i.e. those who like "rolling alts").

 

Q. What lessons have you learned and what are some of your top goals for Mists of Pandaria?

 

There are four big goals for Mists:

1. Get players out into the world. We don’t want to totally eliminate convenience, so it’s fine to queue for some features from capital cities, but we also want players to see other players out in the world, questing, trying world bosses, engaging in PvP, and just travelling from place to place.
   .
   
2. Give players plenty to do. It’s a sad feeling, and a real failure on our part, whenever someone says “I want to play WoW this evening, but I just don’t have anything to do.” Like I said above, achievements and alts were great in their time, and we’ll continue to support them, but we understand the need for new ways to play as well. The new expansion will have entirely new systems, like scenarios and challenge modes. We are designing the initial zones to have features similar to the Molten Front daily area, so you don’t feel like questing is something you finish at level 90 (and so you don’t feel like daily quests are synonymous with ‘boring’ or ‘grind’). We want to make the Pandaria factions interesting. We want Exalted to be something you earn for bragging rights, not something every player has. We are adding a lot of mounts that will be hard to get
   .
   
3. Appeal to a broad audience. I’m always surprised by the number of players who want the game to be easier and the equal number who want the game to be harder (and can’t understand why anyone would disagree with them!) We approach the issue in a different way -- we think that what all of those players are really saying is that they want content for them.
   .
   
4. Get great content out faster. Enough said.
   

How does the above apply to TOR?: Well again, Ghostcrawler touches on getting players out into the world, and to give them the opportunity to see others whilst out there too. Instead of allowing players to "portal" about too much. One of the recent complaints about TOR has been how the game "splits" up the playerbase a little too much, giving the feeling of "empty worlds".

 

He also obviously realises that "fresh" gameplay is needed, and it should be offered in ways that don't feel too "grindy". Some could say that's what TOR is already doing to some regard. But one thing he does touch on, that TOR isn't offering at the moment, is the opportunity to get involved in different and yet interesting NPC factions.

 

And lastly, he shows an understanding that getting content out as fast as possible (within reason) is of paramount importance, and not to wait too long before getting it to the servers.

 

 

Now, no doubt some of Ghostcrawler's post contains moments which may make one want to say "Well duh!", but on the other hand it's hard not to ignore the honesty and truth in his post.

 

Like I said in the title of this thread, it's food for thought.

 

Flame away.....

Edited March 11, 2012 by Tarka

[Leverage]

I agree with this. One of WoW's greatest accomplishments was having massive continents with different zones that you could explore, have WPVP, and have seemless transitions across lands.

 

Here it is Ship-->Orbital Station-->Airlock-->Shuttle-->One Planet that is very segregated often times.

 

I am not sure how else you do it other than being able to physically fly a spaceship from planet to planet to give you that same exploring feel. Something I think would be great but likely isn't in the cards.

 

SWTOR does a lot of things better than WOW, but how "zones" aka planets are laid out isn't one of them.

 

I should also add having daily hubs for both factions was a great instigator of WPVP. In SWTOR most dailies at end game are completely separate which is a bit of a shame to bring the factions together to make the planets feel more alive and bring more PVP to PVP servers.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Leverage

[Morticoccus]

I agree with the part about the overly many instances in SWtOR at least.

 

But the thing with Ghostcrawler is that despite him saying that and promising change, we all know that Blizzard will grease the pig up by hyping crap like this for a year and then they will launch the expansion with only some features and leave the rest to rot.

 

They've done that in EVERY expansion so far, and the only reason I can think of why is economics, they simply don't want to spend development money on everything when they know people will pay for less.

[Blavatsky]

ever seen a picture of this guy , pretty scary

[Dayfax]

Great observations, both from Street & the OP.

 

Bottom line problem: These issues aren't fixable without redoing large portions of the game.

 

As an aside, one of the things I appreciated about WoW was that you could play that game for years, be questing or wandering in a zone you've been through many times and still come across something new.

 

This was more true in Azeroth than in any of the expansion content, but it still always blew me away.

 

That kind of "happy accident" seems to be wholly missing from SWTOR.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dayfax

[Darth_Grissom]

The game is old and the same old thing over, and over, and over agian. That is what they did wrong.

[Ansultares]

Leave it to Blizzard to say all the right things. I haven't played WoW in 5+ years, so I can't really measure Ghostcrawler's opinion of how the revamp went (what I've heard suggests that I would be tremendously disappointed), but he certainly seems practical in his assessment, and I agree with his underlying points.

 

The co-founders of Bioware also talked pre-launch about the need for exploration in TOR and how that activity is important. But some complaints have remarked how there isn't enough opportunity to do that at the moment.

I'd be interested to see how zones feel with red shields removed; they were a really poorly conceived mechanic that was too widely employed, and much of the content they're protecting could be categorized as "explorer" content (all those named NPCs, in particular).

 

I also find them the most offensive, because they're so blatant. I can somewhat understand the heavily compartmentalized terrain; it's what BW is accustomed to designing, even if it's totally misplaced in a MMO. And I know they'll never integrate the faction leveling zones, even if it was a terrible design choice for so many reasons to segregate them in the first place. But red shields need to go.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ansultares

[sevev]

I played WOW since launch..

 

There is no exploration in the game. Never has been.

 

The continents, as we understand or see them as, are all basically ONE very large zone that is broken up into several sub-zones.

There is no exploration in any of these zones at all.

Here is map of ashenvale http://wow.gamepressure.com/map.asp?ID=30

This is a zone where you can access any part of the zone at your leisure. There is nothing within ashenvale (along with all the other zones within WOW) that are "TECHNICALLY" explore able.

 

All zone in WOW can be walked around in and there are no boarders that prevent you from seeing all the quest areas within a a zone.

[Ansultares]

There is nothing within ashenvale (along with all the other zones within WOW) that are "TECHNICALLY" explore able.

 

All zone in WOW can be walked around in and there are no boarders that prevent you from seeing all the quest areas within a a zone.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

 

Are you suggesting that the various 3rd party resources that have developed over the game's extensive life somehow impact exploration within the game?

 

Have you actually been to Dor'Danil Barrow Den? Have you tried climbing the statue at the Shrine of Aessina? PvP'd in Maestra's Outpost? Or checked out the site of Grom Hellscream's death (from WC3) in Demon Fall Canyon? Fought the hydra on that unmarked island, maybe?

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ansultares

[Durasturan]

one of the very first things I thought when I encountered the

Revanite Faction on Drummond Kass

was OH SWEET! I really thought there would be different Orders within the Sith and Jedi like the Templars, and get something like faction or rep points which would unlock gear/titles and while that particular story line did progress over several planets, it just sort of stopped and didn't really go anywhere or give you anything above and beyond what a normal questline would have given you.

 

I think adding things like that would definitely expand the endgame and help with immersion as well, make you feel more connected to the world.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Durasturan

[Laylla]

I played WOW since launch..

 

There is no exploration in the game. Never has been.

 

The continents, as we understand or see them as, are all basically ONE very large zone that is broken up into several sub-zones.

There is no exploration in any of these zones at all.

Here is map of ashenvale http://wow.gamepressure.com/map.asp?ID=30

This is a zone where you can access any part of the zone at your leisure. There is nothing within ashenvale (along with all the other zones within WOW) that are "TECHNICALLY" explore able.

 

All zone in WOW can be walked around in and there are no boarders that prevent you from seeing all the quest areas within a a zone.

 

.....What exactly is your definition of exploring?

[JediElf]

Hmm...I don't know. It kinda seems like Ghostcrawler is saying that they need more things for people to do, but really just giving those things to 'elite' players, once again leaving players who are not at the top, with nothing to do. The game will end at 90 for 90% of the player base.

 

It feels like Mists is going to be a repeat of Cataclysm, and then Blizzard will be left scrambling to recover another million lost subs as even older hard core, and long time players, get frustrated and leave.

 

It sounds like he didn't learn anything from Cata, anything at all, and he forgot what made Wrath of the Litch King the greatest expansion, of all time.

 

He's learned nothing...and it's soo disappointing to read.

 

I just hope SW:TOR doesn't follow the same path. Heck, if anything this might be a boon for this game, we can take in the frustrated, and burned out masses.

 

Heh....this might be a good thing after all.

Edited March 11, 2012 by JediElf

[Durasturan]

.....What exactly is your definition of exploring?

 

I'm not sure what the person you quoted is exactly saying this, they didn't really say much of anything lol, but what they could be saying is there isn't anything hidden which you could explore for or uncover. It's not like deep within a cave beyond loads of traps and through a secret waterfall tunnel there's a blank cavern wall that you can cast Reveal Secret Door on to show you a puzzle that you can solve to gain access to a hidden area.

 

Most of the zones in WoW are pretty straightfoward, you go to this area for this set of quests, sure you can go deeper into the forest if you want, but there's just some deer in there, maybe some more mobs, nothing to make it worthwhile to explore, nothing unique or exciting to find.

 

I think DDO did this the best actually. There were many many many hidden tunnels, secret passages, and you almost always wanted to bring a rogue AND a wizard with your party because of the utility they offered.

 

SWTOR has some cool things, clickable Lore objects, datacrons, neat hidden eastereggs, but the simple fact that if I want to go back to that super cool arena area and sit in the bleachers and watch the NPCs fight, I can't because it's now red and I cant enter it. The fact that the game is so splintered into different phases and then those phases are locked off once you complete them, cuts you off from the vast majority of the world, so that all you're left with is the vast expanse of snow or desert.

 

This is one huge area that SWTOR (and most games) could improve on.

[terminova]

I played WOW since launch..

 

There is no exploration in the game. Never has been.

 

The continents, as we understand or see them as, are all basically ONE very large zone that is broken up into several sub-zones.

There is no exploration in any of these zones at all.

Here is map of ashenvale http://wow.gamepressure.com/map.asp?ID=30

This is a zone where you can access any part of the zone at your leisure. There is nothing within ashenvale (along with all the other zones within WOW) that are "TECHNICALLY" explore able.

 

All zone in WOW can be walked around in and there are no boarders that prevent you from seeing all the quest areas within a a zone.

 

It used to be that you had to explore a lot of the zone if you wanted to pick up all the quests, plus there were areas that were somewhat accessible with lots of effort for those who wanted to explore all the places on the map such as the Dwarven Airfield, the Dancing Troll Village etc. Once upon a time quest markers didn't show up on the map, you had to go find them, and figure out where different quest objectives were at. On a lot of zones if you wanted to uncover the entire map of the zone, you literally had to go explore the very outer fringes of the map.

 

I once played WoW, and I did a lot of exploring with the "ooo....what's over here?" "OMG a MOUNTAIN to climb!" "Let's do some cliff jumping!" It was silly, it was fun.

Edited March 11, 2012 by terminova

[Blavatsky]

The WoW world has always been small and uninspired.

 

The same design of lets say a Cave that existed in the original game, is the exact same cave you will find in their latest expansion.

 

Same is true for houses, quest hubs, small cities towns etc.

 

The original release of WOW had some interesting dungeons you could explore.

 

 

But every expansion since employed the same basic dungeon model.

 

You will start at point A , you will Finish at point B and the distance between is essentially a straight line.

 

It's a decent game no question, but don't start claiming it offers and environment with Character.

 

WOW is and has always been the leading MMO offender when it comes to offering a small , unimaginative , flat environment wherein the scenery is painted on the walls.

[Tarka]

Firstly, I would like to take this opportunity to express my thanks to all who have responded so far. You have all responded in a mature and polite fashion. I was actually expecting a lot of flaming from the "anti-wow" brigade. And I am happy to see that I was wrong so far.

 

Now, as for the replies themselves, I can appreciate a situation whereby one person may like to explore, whilst another may look at a game like WoW and ask, "What's the point? It's boring!" But that touches on a very important topic concerning MMO's: each player has different needs and requirements. A product that can offer activities that cater to such needs, stands a better chance at succeeding than one that doesn't. Now granted, one could argue that what was actually explorable in WoW perhaps wasn't exactly exciting. But that would be missing the point: If you could see a part of the landmass, then you could explore it.

 

Coming to the point about the explorable areas in WoW being subjectively "boring", well, other games have actually taken measures to add additional incentives for people to seek out those little "nooks and crannies" in the gameworld. For instance, Rift has "cairns" (basically one-time-use-only lootboxes), SWTOR has its' "Datacrons". I personally think the Datacron idea is inspired and hope to see more incentives like that appearing in the game. But first, we need interesting land mass to explore.

 

As others have pointed out, one of the big differences between WoW and SWTOR is the fact that more landmass in SWTOR is split away from the others purely because of the nature of those landmasses: they are planets, instead of just parts of one bigger mass. But that's not necessarily a "flaw" per say. It's just a different design. Adding more "mass" to the existing planets and giving players more reasons to stay together on those landmasses could possibly help.

 

 

 

Anyhow, what I see Ghostcrawler talking about (and I agree with the sentiment, even it it may be just Ghostcrawler telling people what they want to hear) is empowering players with a certain degree of freedom, and opportunities to "craft" their own personal and unique experiences. Things that THEY really want to do. Because when a product can offer that, then that gives the player more reason to stay subscribed.

 

But just giving players a set of quests / missions and a choice as to whether or not to do them isn't enough. That's not true "choice". I'm not saying that's precisely what happens in SWTOR, but nevertheless the point still stands.

 

Finally, again I'd like to thank you guys and girls for the civilised discussion. I hope to see it continue

Edited March 12, 2012 by Tarka

[Muskaan]

Adding more mass to existing planets doesn't mean creating miles and miles of desert with nothing in there (like Tattooine or Hoth).

 

How many of you have really explored and seen the Sarlacc Pit in Tattoine? Why not be innovative and come up with a quest involving the Sarlacc pit?

 

Force Unleashed had a quest chain inside a Sarlacc stomach. Why not come up with something epic like that for solo players which involves questing inside the Sarlacc stomach.

 

Miles and miles of emptiness doesn't make a planet feel epic. The Tattoine main story line about

infinite empire

was a lot of fun. It's an iconic planet which every Star Wars fan is extremely familiar with.

 

They could have done so much more with Tattoine.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Muskaan

[Tarka]

It used to be that you had to explore a lot of the zone if you wanted to pick up all the quests, plus there were areas that were somewhat accessible with lots of effort for those who wanted to explore all the places on the map such as the Dwarven Airfield, the Dancing Troll Village etc. Once upon a time quest markers didn't show up on the map, you had to go find them, and figure out where different quest objectives were at. On a lot of zones if you wanted to uncover the entire map of the zone, you literally had to go explore the very outer fringes of the map.

 

I once played WoW, and I did a lot of exploring with the "ooo....what's over here?" "OMG a MOUNTAIN to climb!" "Let's do some cliff jumping!" It was silly, it was fun.

 

Personally speaking, whilst I'm all for offering reasons to explore the world, I still think that things like quest markers are needed. Because without them the experience can feel a little too disjointed. Possibly resulting in the player feeling that there's a lack of "quest" content.

 

Basically a balance must be struck. Not only should players be given a certain degree of "guidance" (for instance, pointers to the next stage in a quest series) but also there should be reasons and opportunies to explore the parts of the game that are "off the beaten track".

 

Perhaps some of those "off the beaten track" areas of the game could perhaps offer "bonus series" of quests. Ones that perhaps don't actually give XP from the quest, but still reward players for taking part (loot, money, faction gain, etc, etc).

Edited March 12, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

Adding more mass to existing planets doesn't mean creating miles and miles of desert with nothing in there (like Tattooine or Hoth).

 

How many of you have really explored and seen the Sarlacc Pit in Tattoine? Why not be innovative and come up with a quest involving the Sarlacc pit?

 

Force Unleashed had a quest chain inside a Sarlacc stomach. Why not come up with something epic like that for solo players which involves questing inside the Sarlacc stomach.

 

If they are going to involve the Sarlacc Pit more, first I think they REALLY need to redesign it. To me, it currently looks awful. No animation, surrounded by "elite" mobs and a terrible static image of a hole in the bottom for the mouth. It makes you wonder if Bioware actually watched Return of the Jedi. lol.

 

However, you have offered just one "inventive" way to use an icon from the films. Adding the illusion of a "third dimension" to the landmass on Tatooine too. Personally, I think the more "iconic" and charismatic planets in the game are sorely under used.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Tarka

[Cerion]

I've played a lot of MMOs, and very few get exploration right.

 

If MMO developers need examples of good exploration in games, they should study Skyrim (or any Bethesda game really), and Minecraft.

 

I'm typically an explorer type of player, but most MMOs kill that sense of exploration in me. One of the greatest failings of anti-exploration is MOB density. So many MMOs fail at this. They somehow believe that having tiny groups of three or four MOBS every 30 meters is somehow good, fun content.

 

Another failing of poor exploration design is little to no reward in the exploration itself. There's got to be something there to see, or gather. Bethesda shines in this department. You explore the world, and every nook and cranny has something to see or gather. Just when you're about to be bored, or think nothing is there, you're rewarded with a few bottlecaps or skill-up.

 

SWTOR tries to implement an exploration mode with the datacrons...but the problem is that the exploration itself fails on the two basic designs I mentioned above: 1). Frustration in exploring 2). Frequency of rewards.

[Muskaan]

True. although first I think they REALLY need to redesign that Sarlacc pit in the game. To me, it looks awful. No animation, surrounded by "elite" mobs and a terrible static image of a hole in the bottom for the mouth. It makes you wonder if Bioware actually watched Return of the Jedi?

 

Yep. and the Sarlacc Pit is so iconic. I watched "Return of the Jedi" for the first time many years back when I was a kid (like 5 or something) and that Sarlacc Pit gave me nightmare for several weeks.

[Tarka]

I've played a lot of MMOs, and very few get exploration right.

 

If MMO developers need examples of good exploration in games, they should study Skyrim (or any Bethesda game really), and Minecraft.

 

I'm typically an explorer type of player, but most MMOs kill that sense of exploration in me. One of the greatest failings of anti-exploration is MOB density. So many MMOs fail at this. They somehow believe that having tiny groups of three or four MOBS every 30 meters is somehow good, fun content.

 

Another failing of poor exploration design is little to no reward in the exploration itself. There's got to be something there to see, or gather. Bethesda shines in this department. You explore the world, and every nook and cranny has something to see or gather. Just when you're about to be bored, or think nothing is there, you're rewarded with a few bottlecaps or skill-up.

 

SWTOR tries to implement an exploration mode with the datacrons...but the problem is that the exploration itself fails on the two basic designs I mentioned above: 1). Frustration in exploring 2). Frequency of rewards.

 

Agreed. Although to be fair, SWTOR does have "Datacrons".

The concept could be used not to give extra stats but to offer additional Codex information.

 

Perhaps giving clues to where the next Datacron lies. Chain those together and you have yourself a "Treasure Hunt" of sorts. Clues could be changed on a regular basis, and that could become part of a larger "World Event" series.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Tarka

[Muskaan]

Perhaps giving clues to where the next Datacron lies. Chain those together and you have yourself a "Treasure Hunt" of sorts. Clues could be changed on a regular basis, and that could become part of a larger "World Event" series.

 

 

Ooh - a SWTOR scavenger hunt. /approve

[Vankris]

Removing orbital station that serve no purpose would go a long way from to reduce the disjoints feeling between planet.

 

I could imagine free flying above planet (disable datacron vision from free flying), specific landing pad a diffrent point in the map, an hyperspace portal near the planet to travel trough space all without any loading; this is my dream star wars.

[Dianoia]

I've lost a lot of respect for Ghostcrawler over the past two or three years, and this is just another reason why. He doesn't understand the failure of Cataclysm, which is why that game will limp along hemhorraging more subscribers.

 

Deathwing was a poorly thought out and conceived villain. He's crazy, and that's that. You can't relate to him. Arthas, Illidan, you felt for them. They had a rich, deep story that was tragic. Deathwing was just a big, crazy dragon.

 

There were no "tiers" to raiding. Every patch made the previous raid obsolete. This didn't work near the middle of Wrath, and it definitely didn't work in Cata. In fact, in Cata they took it to a whole new level, making dungeons obsolete, too. Trolloics for four months straight?! Woohoo!

 

They put a vast majority of resources into updating the game world, which has all of a two-day "wow" factor. But yet I still need to zone i to Silvermoon and Azuremyst? And can't fly there? Lazy.

 

Lastly, they need to call it World of Orgimmar/Stormwindcraft, because that's the only place worth going. They intentionally designed convenience in those zones to make other zones pointless.

 

I won't even start on how the most interesting stories are left unfinished, on how they tell story in books instead of in game, on Thrall's boring romance, on the oversimplification of classes, on the stillbroken PvP, on the dumbing down of raids, the horribly written worgen, the extremely disgusting and outdated graphics, the ridiculous new race/class combos, etc.

 

SWTOR isn't perfect, but it has some time before falling into these pitfalls. I can understand not being satisfied with some missing features or bugs, but whatever WoW was, it isn't anymore, and will never be again with these jokers at the helm.