Bioware will lose even more subs with the "everyone gets best gear free" mentality

[Dego_Locc]

I honestly think the majority of the strictly PVP playersbase (at least the ones I know personally) have either canceled, or are thinking about unsubbing. This is a PVE game. Always was, from the ground up.

 

I asked myself the other day if I would still play this game for the PVP, if it wasn't "Star Wars" and the answer was "No, I would not".

 

That says a lot right there, I wonder how many of the rest of us are here because the game is Star Wars, instead of a game that is fun in it's own right, and in the back of our minds think it's failing.

 

Linear progression and gameplay, only 3 warzones, one broken endgame pvp planet that most of us hate, and even Bioware has admitted it needs reworked, and the rest of the planets designed to discourage questing in the enemies area to prevent grieving from carebears that should have rolled on a pve server in the first place if they didn't wanna get ganked. Ect Ect Ect.

 

 

Oh SWTOR, what a let down to me. It has a great points, especially if you're into alts and PVE, but guys like me who want engaging open world PVP with epic numbers battling are going to have to look elsewhere like GW2, but that might be another be let down as well.

 

Maybe I just have played too many MMO's over the years, and am now jaded/ and or a dinosaur......

 

I will admit, my opinion about MMO's in general is the minority, but I can accept that.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[Kyrandis]

Guess you guys will have to wait till GW2 comes out for the Laddered Gear Progression...

 

...oh about that....

 

"When a player takes a character into PvP, they are granted access to all the necessary skills, items, etc. Characters are set to the maximum level, putting everyone on an even playing field. This makes player skill more important than time invested in a particular character. When you take your character back to the PvE environment, you return to the skills and gear you had there, but the game will save your last PvP setup. You'll also be able to store templates for builds. This way, you can try out new stuff in PvP but still easily return to your familiar builds."

 

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/pvp-overview/

 

This honestly changes nothing tbh, and I don't understand the gripe of it. Pro's will dominate all, Hardcores(unless they are very slow learners) will dominate Casuals due to experience. Both GW2 and SWTOR are trying to remove Gear from the Equation in PvP. Hopefully they can bring skill to the forefront. I hope they both succeed in changing the Face of MMO PVP.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Kyrandis

[Caeliux]

. This is a PVE game. Always was, from the ground up.

 

It's a mmo that has Pve and Pvp, therefore both styles has to get catered. That is why we have servers that are Pvp, Pve, and RP.

 

Pvper's are just as important and people need to have that itch, if not a success of a mmo goes does the tube. It is a double-edge sword, and it also is reason alot of mmo's have failed.

 

Either some get one right or not other, games like Warhammer where its nothing but Pvp.

 

My point is SWTOR is both, and people need to address it a Pvp game just as much as a Pve game.

 

My 2.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Caeliux

[Dego_Locc]

It's a mmo that has Pve and Pvp, therefore both styles has to get catered. That is why we have servers that are Pvp, Pve, and RP.

 

Pvper's are just as important and people need to have that itch, if not a success of a mmo goes does the tube. It is a double-edge sword, and it also is reason alot of mmo's have failed.

 

Either some get one right or not other, games like Warhammer where its nothing but Pvp.

 

My point is SWTOR is both, and people need to address it a Pvp game just as much as a Pve game.

 

My 2.

 

I have to disagree, this games PVP consists of 3 instanced warzones. Open world pvp is discouraged by design. It was clearly treated as an after though. I was in the general beta testing group, and ilum was there, but barren and not used at all, no walkers, no cap points, nobody. End game was not tested at all. In one of the last builds they had a server that you could roll a premade level 42 on to test end game content. Problem was, Bioware didn't start your test character off with any credits or gear. No one could afford to train ANY skills. Some players spent a week trying to farm credits to be able to train (because they never sent our money to the masses, which they could've done), only to have the server itself shut down before we could actually test anything. A few weeks later beta was over and launch was in sight.....

Edited March 10, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[Ergecrs]

You're example is as wrong as it gets.

 

All RL sports = sponsors and price money on HIGH END level.

I especially love how you mention "golf" as a sport where there are no rewards

Imagine if Tiger Woods and the rest of the golfers were told "if you win a big tournament in this career, there is not any price or reward at all, you will end up broke", before they started winning and got rich as hell.

You are probably a bad golfer, so you get nothing.

 

A bad pvp'er should still get 96%, and I wish the skilled pvp'ers would be awarded with 100% for the work. It's only 4% I want, but its still something that can count as a "reward" for the effort.

 

Reading comp is not your strong point is it ? I said you only get prizes in real sports if you win tournaments. There has been no ranked warzones yet aka no tournaments yet just normal pvp. As to my golfing I play the sport for fun not for competition. On the other hand I played 10 years of competitive paintball made very good money at it once i got good. The point was I played it because I loved doing it not for the money. That was just a BONUS

 

They are leveling the playing field then putting in the ranking system ! We can argue all day long about stat bonuses but untill 1.2 comes out all it would be as to guesses as what bonus the new tier will give and how much the cost of the old pvp items will be.

 

The red is the problem in sports you dont win an item that gives you an advantage over the other players you just win money so to take that argument into affect Ranked WZ should not give pvp gear that makes them better only stuff that is visual and titles !

[lethal_ghost]

I honestly think the majority of the strictly PVP playersbase (at least the ones I know personally) have either canceled, or are thinking about unsubbing. This is a PVE game. Always was, from the ground up.

 

I asked myself the other day if I would still play this game for the PVP, if it wasn't "Star Wars" and the answer was "No, I would not".

 

That says a lot right there, I wonder how many of the rest of us are here because the game is Star Wars, instead of a game that is fun in it's own right, and in the back of our minds think it's failing.

 

Linear progression and gameplay, only 3 warzones, one broken endgame pvp planet that most of us hate, and even Bioware has admitted it needs reworked, and the rest of the planets designed to discourage questing in the enemies area to prevent grieving from carebears that should have rolled on a pve server in the first place if they didn't wanna get ganked. Ect Ect Ect.

 

 

Oh SWTOR, what a let down to me. It has a great points, especially if you're into alts and PVE, but guys like me who want engaging open world PVP with epic numbers battling are going to have to look elsewhere like GW2, but that might be another be let down as well.

 

Maybe I just have played too many MMO's over the years, and am now jaded/ and or a dinosaur......

 

I will admit, my opinion about MMO's in general is the minority, but I can accept that.

 

QFT

 

i think most people who came for the PvP side of the game are starting to realise this game is not a very good PvP game. (Engine cant handle mass battles, worlds have been designed to discourage open world PvP, ILLUM has failed terribly only leaving only 3 war zones) In the end i would say most PvP players will move on leaving the more casual PvP'r and the PvE players.

[Cassiopea]

I hope gear becomes cosmetic. No excuse for bads like you. PvP is always better when the deciding factor between winning and losing is skill.

 

Burn the heretic!

 

@OP

But seriously. People will lose interest blablabla. Maybe you can play for fun, or in most cases for the ego boost of owning.

Why are people still playing DotA, HoN, LoL, Star Craft? Oh wait for the reward of fun and owning in a team. AND afaik you can Q up as 8 from 1.2 on if I got the advertising right. Don´t start telling this are different games. There is nothing different about this game. When you are only playing for the sake of having the biggest virtual *****, then you might just try beat the minesweeper world record or something.

 

I bet you even sucked in pvp on lvl 49 and now, after good 3 months of daily grinding you are geared up and still get beat up by randoms in random armor? JUST BLAME THE OP CLASS. trolololol my BM carnage (hahahahahaha) marauder can´t do **** in pvp BW fix this or I´ll quit and all my friends, guildmates and even granny too.

 

simple truth:

 

If you cant kill people same gear lvl you are doing it wrong.

If you cant kill **** in PVP you just plain suck.

[Dego_Locc]

QFT

 

i think most people who came for the PvP side of the game are starting to realise this game is not a very good PvP game. (Engine cant handle mass battles, worlds have been designed to discourage open world PvP, ILLUM has failed terribly only leaving only 3 war zones) In the end i would say most PvP players will move on leaving the more casual PvP'r and the PvE players.

 

Agreed, and the thing about players like that is that they give the game 1 shot, and if it doesn't do it right in the first few months, they leave and never come back. MMO's get one shot at capturing and keeping the majority of the PVP crowd. And sadly I think SWTOR blew it.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[Ergecrs]

 

Now from being an athlete myself, and doing sports on high tournament levels (with sponsors), I can say that I like competition, and I think its fair that if you bring the effort, you should be rewarded likewise.

So if you dont care in putting any effort at all, you should not be rewarded for being lazy.

 

Bioware wants to reward lazy people like you, and I think its wrong.

 

Just curious what sport do yo play ? What are your sponsors ? Like I said I played competitive paintball gear was extremly important in my sport ! But everything I had was avaiable to buy so there was no real advantage just skills. If we won we did not get some secret prize that was better we got money Nothing that made us better then other people just "credits" or visual stuff like what they should do with this game. No one deserves a stat advantage because they started sooner in pvp the field should be even like in real sports according to YOU !

 

PS if you want to google it I played for Viewloader Allstars in the NPPL also played a season with Palm Beach Vipers in the PSP, Had sponsors throught my career of Viewload Worr Games JT USA Smart Parts Dye and many more !

Edited March 10, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[Trixfayne]

My guildies and I play in the 10-49 bracket. Why you ask?

 

The gear we use is available to everyone in this bracket. The stats are all bolstered to be on par with everyone else. We do not play here to level, obtain gear, titles, achievements, or mounts. We fight here because it is fun. We did the gear grind in the 50 bracket. It is absolutely crazy how much of a difference the gear makes in the 50 bracket. Hitting 50 sucks. It suddenly becomes obscenely unequal and leaves the realm of fair competition. Why?

 

Why do I need to get my *** kicked over and over for a certain amount of TIME before I can become competitive and have fun? Why do you need to get your *** kicked over and over for a certain amount of time before YOU can become competitive and have fun?

 

How much time do we NEED to put into a game to be able to have fun?

 

No thank you, I will keep re-rolling if I have to. That is until I get bored or something better comes along.

I thought SWTOR was going to be more about skill than gear. I have played WoW. I left it for a reason. It was no fun.

 

You know what IS fun?

Getting schooled by someone many levels below you because they are an excellent player. Equally enjoyable is the other side of that when you are level 27 and take down a 47 with next to no health left. THAT is exhilarating! We play in this bracket because it is fun. I have raised 2 level 50's only to be flat out disgusted by the same ole same ole.

 

Fair competition is what PvP is all about. PvP gear is a recent development in MMORPGs. Many of our fellow PvPrs these days either forgot or are too young to remember that World of Warcraft was the first game to introduce PvP gear. The classics like Ultima Online, DAOC, and even the hardcore Shadowbane never had PvP gear. PvP gear has been a plague on the system for too long.

 

The spirit of competition promotes fair game play. I don't want better gear. I like the Leaderboard with titles, achievements, and bling like mounts, or mod-able gear that EVERYONE has access to without having to lose my family/house/any other responsibilities.

 

Do you think a boxer who wins a fight wants brass knuckles to fight the next one to challenge him?

Or

Do you think that same boxer would prefer to have a Ferrari?

 

It is alright though. You who want PvP gear progression have nothing to fear. You are a part of this Player versus Player community and we accept you. We will also humbly explain to you so that you understand, that PvP gear progression is an advantage that only the weak shall cherish.

Needing a stat advantage over another player does not make you more skilled than they are. Anyone who feels they need a stat advantage over another player does not subscribe to the Player versus Player mentality. They belong in the Gear vs Gear community. -Otherwise known as the Player versus Environment community.

[MonsAlpha]

So....they quit. At least the people who don't whine will be left.

[Dego_Locc]

So....they quit. At least the people who don't whine will be left.

 

The ppl who whined in the first place about OP PVP gear grinds are all who will be left.

 

So yea, there will still be whiners. Only difference is, once they realize that equal gear with higher valor ranked players still gets them facerolled, they will be whining for class nerfs.

[Tic-]

The ppl who whined in the first place about OP PVP gear grinds are all who will be left.

 

So yea, there will still be whiners. Only difference is, once they realize that equal gear with higher valor ranked players still gets them facerolled, they will be whining for class nerfs.

 

Not sure if you noticed, but theres a thread or two already crying for nerfs..

 

or

 

Who cares...

 

the gear will be even, let Bioware worry about balance. By making the gear equal, you take out one variable from those crying for said nerfs.

[Dego_Locc]

Not sure if you noticed, but theres a thread or two already crying for nerfs..

 

or

 

Who cares...

 

the gear will be even, let Bioware worry about balance. By making the gear equal, you take out one variable from those crying for said nerfs.

That is, until we all have the same exact equal gear, and they (the majority of casuals who whined in the first place) are still losing. Was my point.

[Dakan]

When everyone is on equal ground, those complaining because they're still losing won't have an argument. They'll have to take a long, hard look at themselves and get better.

 

There will be no more excuses.

 

***

 

@OP

 

Since you brought competitive sports into this discussion, let's talk about it.

 

The pinnacle of whatever sport you play is to win the so called "championship", right?

 

Okay. And what do those champions receive? A trophy, a ring; some symbol that shows everyone else what they achieved and earned.

 

• They don't get shoes that make them jump higher or run faster.
  
• They don't receive shoulder pads that increases their arm strength so they can throw farther.
  
• They don't receive a bat that let's them hit farther.
  
• They don't receive a tennis racket that lets them score an ace every serve.
  
• They don't receive a stick that increases their slap shot power.
  
• They don't receive a bowling ball that nets them a strike every frame.
  
• They don't receive a club that increases their drives or hole-in-one chances.
  

 

Shall I keep going?

 

Gear stat disparities in PvP are no good and never work.

 

Gear progression and stat gains belong in the PvE world.

 

Cosmetics, aesthetics, titles, and ranks are just fine for PvP.

 

If you're after some carrot in PvP, you're not really a PvPer, just a PvEer disguised as one.

[Tic-]

That is, until we all have the same exact equal gear, and they (the majority of casuals who whined in the first place) are still losing. Was my point.

 

Yes, i got your point...

 

Mine is, why not get rid of a variable that makes people whine if whinning is your concern?

 

As the above poster stated, they will have to look at themselves. Or, at least realize there is one less thing for them to whine about. Balance will always get a good amount of complaints and will never go away.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Tic-

[Badlander]

I can't wait till these ppl who think everyone deserves a trophy try out GW2 and we still face roll them. Let them stay here and whine about how pvp is unfair cuz of premades and gear.

 

They will go to GW2 and see that pugs will still get rolled and even though the gear advantage is gone they still get rolled cuz they suck at pvp.

 

But remember folks win or lose everyone deserves a trophy..what a bunch of crap.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Badlander

[Entropicus]

Problem with rated is people will start stacking teams, and with the glaring imbalances given some of the classes at this current moment it means a helluva lot of people wont be able ot be competitive.

 

Like in WoW, you werent going to get above a 2k rating without a good team makeup. And classes suffered for it(feral druid free kills come to mind) granted I havent played since WotLK so I dont know how things are now.

[lupacob]

sounds like bad players are upset that they wont be able to blame their losses on a gear advantage

[Niaoru]

Problem with rated is people will start stacking teams, and with the glaring imbalances given some of the classes at this current moment it means a helluva lot of people wont be able ot be competitive.

 

Like in WoW, you werent going to get above a 2k rating without a good team makeup. And classes suffered for it(feral druid free kills come to mind) granted I havent played since WotLK so I dont know how things are now.

 

Rong! I got gladiator as a feral druid in seasons 3 and 4. My comp was horrible, but we were still able to grab the title. If you are a very good player, you can get by with an underpowered class. However, I'm not disputing that a decent player of any good class would do better then you in your comp. I'm just saying skilled players can still compete in top tier PvP with less than desirable classes.

 

Edit: Back to the point of the thread. I agree with the OP, and will probably gravitate towards another game where the incentive to compete in high end PvP is actually present. Not because I wouldn't enjoy ranked PvP here, but because a lot of very skilled PvPers have quit, and are going to quit this game because of the lack of incentive. I prefer to be challenged, so I will probably move on to where they are going to compete against them. Possibly Tera. The aiming system for that game looks pretty legit.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Niaoru

[Vaipyr]

I prefer to be challenged, so I will probably move on to where they are going to compete against them.

 

That would be FPS's or RTS's primarily. You know, where there is real skill-based PvP.

[Jimra]

When everyone is on equal ground, those complaining because they're still losing won't have an argument. They'll have to take a long, hard look at themselves and get better.

 

There will be no more excuses.

 

***

 

@OP

 

Since you brought competitive sports into this discussion, let's talk about it.

 

The pinnacle of whatever sport you play is to win the so called "championship", right?

 

Okay. And what do those champions receive? A trophy, a ring; some symbol that shows everyone else what they achieved and earned.

 

• They don't get shoes that make them jump higher or run faster.
  
• They don't receive shoulder pads that increases their arm strength so they can throw farther.
  
• They don't receive a bat that let's them hit farther.
  
• They don't receive a tennis racket that lets them score an ace every serve.
  
• They don't receive a stick that increases their slap shot power.
  
• They don't receive a bowling ball that nets them a strike every frame.
  
• They don't receive a club that increases their drives or hole-in-one chances.
  

 

 

I was going to post something along these lines but this guy beat me to it.

 

RL sports are a good comparative but does not work in your favour. No one gains an advantage for the amount of time they happen to have put in. They rely on their skills to pay the bills.

 

In fact if you a serious athlete as you propose you should know that some people are naturally better despite putting less work in.

[Niaoru]

That would be FPS's or RTS's primarily. You know, where there is real skill-based PvP.

 

I do play CoD and BF3 fairly often. It's not like I look for PvP solely in MMOs. Sometimes I feel like running around and shooting someone in the face, other times I feel like doing the MMO thing.

[Nhaok]

you werent going to get above a 2k rating without a good team makeup.

 

And that is how is should be in all this style of game. You should not expect to win 3s with 3 frost mages. You need to balance out your team to maximize your efficiency. Yes, from patch to patch some teams will be better than others (Im looking at you KFC). Like if you have 8 sorcs in a rated vs another good rated the sorc team will get destroyed in placed like huttball. Yes they have tons of ability but they are crazy squishy.

[SkuzBukit]

Here's the funny thing about predictions:

 

Almost none of them ever come true.