Clearing up the facts about Pyrotech.

[Theology]

I see alot of QQ about Powertech Pyrotechs here on the forums. So i'm here to clear up the misinformation.

 

The traditional Pyro build (4/6/31) forces the Powertech to take Mercenary designed gear (Eliminator's) for the 4 peice set bonus (15% Crit Chance on Rail Shot) So we sacrifice a 2pc. bonus already.

 

Now, I see people saying they see 5k rail shot crits over and over and over. Thus generating the QQ, and if this was the case, it certainly would be OP. But alas, it is not.

 

In full Champ/rakata/BM off-pieces, my railshots hit on average for 3.8k IF they crit.

 

The pyro rotation is (and assuming they all crit, with power relics and adrenals) is:

 

-Thermal Det 4.2-4.5k

-Incindiery Missle 1k+a small DoT

-Rail shot 4.2-4.5k

-Flame Burst (+ a CGC proc) 2-2.3k

-Rocket punch 2k

 

That's roughly ~15k damage spread over 5 GCDs with all of our temporary buffs

 

If Rail shot doesn't crit, seeing as it's weapon damage, and absolutely mitigtable/deflectable/shieldable, it does really really bad damage. It has a ~40% crit rate with all of the buffs.

 

Now, after buffs and adrenals have worn off, we have to spam flame burst/rocket punch and hope for a rail shot proc. Sometimes we get lucky and get procs, sometimes we dont.

If we don't get procs, we overheat stupid fast and are forced to use not so great attacks (unload, rapid shots)

 

The damage is super inconsistent due to the entire spec and gear being based on one ability. A majority of our damage that you see on the scoreboard at the end of the game comes from CGC and IM DoTs (which are probably healed through anyways.)

 

That's the risk of the spec, like many other specs, it all depends on one proc. Sometimes it can be really great damage, other times, not so much.

 

Could Pyro use a tonedown on the crit damage? Maybe. I know of classes that still hit stupid hard with crits really often too (Sniper, Smash spec, Arsenal Mercs) so let's not forget those.

[MPagano]

It's just poor class design. Classes that rely so heavily on procs which can result in crazy damage spikes don't make for fun pvp. It's MMO 101.

[Theology]

I don't disagree with you, but regardless the damage is VERY inconsistent and that in it'sself is the risk of the spec, it doesn't need nerfed. Toned down maybe, but not nerfed.

[MPagano]

I agree with you regarding cries for nerfs. Frankly, this game is pretty balanced when all other variables are fixed. I remember when WoW was first launched...talk about FOTM.

 

One big issue stems from the fact that a lot of people are walking into pvp with no expertise and playing others with 600 expertise. This sort of gap makes it impossible to have an accurate comparison, and so people come on here and say they can't beat a class.

[hulkweazel]

It's just poor class design. Classes that rely so heavily on procs which can result in crazy damage spikes don't make for fun pvp. It's MMO 101.

This. I play a PT as well (Though tank spec, I use the Ironfist build) and Pyro is not really working as intended.

[Srolo]

This. I play a PT as well (Though tank spec, I use the Ironfist build) and Pyro is not really working as intended.

 

How is Pyro not working as intended? The whole tree is based around increasing dot damage and damage done by railshot to burning targets. Is it not working as intended because it's the only viable DPS build for powertechs and it kills you all the time? AP is a complete joke when it comes to DPS.

[Theology]

AP is a terrible terrible tree

[exphryl]

The issue with Pyro, that most people in warzones do not understand is

 

a) cleansing our dots, this rarely happens.

 

b) we have zero defensive cooldowns that will save us. (I'm sorry, 25% extra mitigation is generally useless unless it's used at the start of a fight to get the full duration. It is not an "oh ****" cooldown by any sense of the means). Don't even get me started on Kolto Overload. What type of heal cooldown is that...

 

c) We have 0 mobility. Minus a 45sec cooldown on a buggy grapple we fall in line with Operatives in the sense there is a lot of walking. A whole lot of walking

 

d) Resource management in a hectic PvP Battle is terrible. In a 1v1 it's different, but the game isn't balanced around 1v1. (Although these forums like to base everything on 1v1 for some reason)

 

e) We are squishy. Seriously, don't let that heavy armor fool you we'll die quick. But the amount of times I get focused in a warzone on a daily basis I can probably count on one hand. Instead I can "sit back" and just wreak havoc on the other team while they attack the mercs and other classes.

 

f) Pyro damage is based on procs, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you are spamming flame burst and hitting rocket punch till your blue in the face and not getting a railshot proc. (I hate it when that happens. Not much you can do about it though).

 

g) I'd honestly like more consistent damage rather then proc damage but not sure how they would work that. The issue lies then though we have zero means to get a player off us. No knockback, bad defensive cooldowns like I stated, nothing to remove a snare. This would create a Spec that has "nerfed" damage and low survivability. I wouldn't mind lower damage if we had some type of tool to keep us alive a little longer that was meaningful.

[Theology]

Couldnt agree more with the above poster. I'm confident that Pyro wont be touched much, if at all.

[Soshla]

nothing to remove a snare.

This is just plain false, and I felt I should clear it up quickly. Degauss removes Snares. It's just poorly designed. Degauss should be changed to "for the duration of Energy Shield" so it's actually useful.

[Obie_Wan]

Hmm, 5k railshot crits are rare and that 4k are the highest a Powertech/Vanguard can get, eh?

 

Well I'll just leave this screenshot here.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/screenshot2012030620385.jpg/

 

Some further clarification on the matter then. It's not really a 5 GCD because the thermal detonator is being thrown to start the fight off at ranged, it's a delayed explosion that ends up in one big "burst" when it explodes while DoTs and other stuff are being laid in thick. Much more fair to call it a 4 GCD.

 

15K damage, even if it's spread across 4 GCD is pretty horrifically potent. I'm in awe that you're throwing that number out so casually. That's enough to leave most players on the brink of death.

 

Not every classes can dispel and the DoTs can be reapplied quicker than it be dispelled.

 

Powertech might have low mobility but you can't deny that you have an effective snare that can be talented onto a tech attack which does good damage for its cost. You might need to work to catch others, but other people aren't able to escape from you either with the damaging snare and grapple.

 

Survivability cooldowns. I seriously do not understand how Powertech can complain about their shield. It reduces all damage by 25% and is on 2 minute cooldown. Against DPS classes that can't heal themselves, that 12 seconds of mitigated damage and the front loaded damage they're taking from DoTs, -Tech- damage, and 90% armor penetrating Railshots/HIBs is more than enough to establish a large HP gap.

 

Do you see that 5.7k crit in the screenshot? That was against me, and I'm in full BM gear and wearing heavy armour too which does very little against a 90% armour penetrating attack that can have procced and refresh again. People complain about Smash specced Juggs 6k crits, but at least they have a leeway of 9 seconds before another huge burst comes ideally. I was eating that 5.7K crit with DoTs rolling on me, thermal detonator exploding on me, AND eating 2k rocket punches at the same time.

 

This leads me to armour. Yeah, I wear heavy armour and I can be squishy too, but we're a DPS class that's what we're supposed to be like. Powertech/Vanguard aren't the only AC with only one survivability cooldown too. 2 minute defensive cooldown tied with heavy armour that mitigates tech/force attacks as well is VERY GOOD. The amount of burst that you guys can sustain is already frightening enough and often times more than effective enough to render the issue of survivability moot, can you comprehend how the community would react if there were more survivability tacked on? Powertech/Vanguard survivability is really being downplayed, it is in fact above average for a DPS class.

 

 

 

I'm not about to go and call Powertech/Vanguard OP. I'll level up Vanguard myself to 50 in order to deepen my understanding of what I can do to counter them on my main. However I can say that I dread the day where I see multiple well geared and properly modded Powertech/Vanguard DPS in the warzones, because right now I'm already barely able to survive a single good Powertech 1 on 1 and have had healers get squished through guard in a prolonged group fight with a good PT in the mix. I can't imagine how quickly the fights will end when more of them around.

 

That said, things are no where near as difficult as DPS Powertechs/Vanguards are saying that it is though.

[Razuko]

The issue with Pyro, that most people in warzones do not understand is

 

a) cleansing our dots, this rarely happens.

 

b) we have zero defensive cooldowns that will save us. (I'm sorry, 25% extra mitigation is generally useless unless it's used at the start of a fight to get the full duration. It is not an "oh ****" cooldown by any sense of the means). Don't even get me started on Kolto Overload. What type of heal cooldown is that...

 

c) We have 0 mobility. Minus a 45sec cooldown on a buggy grapple we fall in line with Operatives in the sense there is a lot of walking. A whole lot of walking

 

d) Resource management in a hectic PvP Battle is terrible. In a 1v1 it's different, but the game isn't balanced around 1v1. (Although these forums like to base everything on 1v1 for some reason)

 

e) We are squishy. Seriously, don't let that heavy armor fool you we'll die quick. But the amount of times I get focused in a warzone on a daily basis I can probably count on one hand. Instead I can "sit back" and just wreak havoc on the other team while they attack the mercs and other classes.

 

f) Pyro damage is based on procs, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you are spamming flame burst and hitting rocket punch till your blue in the face and not getting a railshot proc. (I hate it when that happens. Not much you can do about it though).

 

g) I'd honestly like more consistent damage rather then proc damage but not sure how they would work that. The issue lies then though we have zero means to get a player off us. No knockback, bad defensive cooldowns like I stated, nothing to remove a snare. This would create a Spec that has "nerfed" damage and low survivability. I wouldn't mind lower damage if we had some type of tool to keep us alive a little longer that was meaningful.

 

^This.

 

Most players are just focusing on the sorcs and mercs and leaving us free to to blow our loads all over them. The numbers being thrown around by the whiners are greatly exaggerated. I'm in full mod swapped champ gear and have only had that 5k sweetness a handful of times when some unlucky fresh 50 in crap armor was on the receiving end. As the others have said I would be all for trading some proc burst for more consistent damage and sort of mobility/defensive ability as we have zilch atm.

 

Currently it's just a priority issue for pvp. Do you want to A) Eat lightning. B) Be bombarded by tracer missles. C) Get DP'd by a double sided nuclear *****. D) Have a shiv covered in corrosive acid plunged into your kidneys. E) Have a high energy projectile punch through your chest.

 

If you focus one, the others will shine through...

[Theology]

Hmm, 5k railshot crits are rare and that 4k are the highest a Powertech/Vanguard can get, eh?

 

Well I'll just leave this screenshot here.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/screenshot2012030620385.jpg/

 

Some further clarification on the matter then. It's not really a 5 GCD because the thermal detonator is being thrown to start the fight off at ranged, it's a delayed explosion that ends up in one big "burst" when it explodes while DoTs and other stuff are being laid in thick. Much more fair to call it a 4 GCD.

 

15K damage, even if it's spread across 4 GCD is pretty horrifically potent. I'm in awe that you're throwing that number out so casually. That's enough to leave most players on the brink of death.

 

Not every classes can dispel and the DoTs can be reapplied quicker than it be dispelled.

 

Powertech might have low mobility but you can't deny that you have an effective snare that can be talented onto a tech attack which does good damage for its cost. You might need to work to catch others, but other people aren't able to escape from you either with the damaging snare and grapple.

 

Survivability cooldowns. I seriously do not understand how Powertech can complain about their shield. It reduces all damage by 25% and is on 2 minute cooldown. Against DPS classes that can't heal themselves, that 12 seconds of mitigated damage and the front loaded damage they're taking from DoTs, -Tech- damage, and 90% armor penetrating Railshots/HIBs is more than enough to establish a large HP gap.

 

Do you see that 5.7k crit in the screenshot? That was against me, and I'm in full BM gear and wearing heavy armour too which does very little against a 90% armour penetrating attack that can have procced and refresh again. People complain about Smash specced Juggs 6k crits, but at least they have a leeway of 9 seconds before another huge burst comes ideally. I was eating that 5.7K crit with DoTs rolling on me, thermal detonator exploding on me, AND eating 2k rocket punches at the same time.

 

This leads me to armour. Yeah, I wear heavy armour and I can be squishy too, but we're a DPS class that's what we're supposed to be like. Powertech/Vanguard aren't the only AC with only one survivability cooldown too. 2 minute defensive cooldown tied with heavy armour that mitigates tech/force attacks as well is VERY GOOD. The amount of burst that you guys can sustain is already frightening enough and often times more than effective enough to render the issue of survivability moot, can you comprehend how the community would react if there were more survivability tacked on? Powertech/Vanguard survivability is really being downplayed, it is in fact above average for a DPS class.

 

 

 

I'm not about to go and call Powertech/Vanguard OP. I'll level up Vanguard myself to 50 in order to deepen my understanding of what I can do to counter them on my main. However I can say that I dread the day where I see multiple well geared and properly modded Powertech/Vanguard DPS in the warzones, because right now I'm already barely able to survive a single good Powertech 1 on 1 and have had healers get squished through guard in a prolonged group fight with a good PT in the mix. I can't imagine how quickly the fights will end when more of them around.

 

That said, things are no where near as difficult as DPS Powertechs/Vanguards are saying that it is though.

 

So the powertech got a 5.7k crit..with EVERY cooldown he has popped. That's not that impressive and is weak compared to what other classes can get in terms of a big number. (7.5k smashes that are also AOE) You also don't mention that if he gets unlucky (which happens more often times than not) that his only option is to spam you with flame burst/unload/rapid shots. Stop exaggerating the damage output. Fact is, it can have good damage out put, or be down right horrible. Luck of the draw.

[tsupra]

wow, 5 buttons and you kill a full champion geared person,while you keep your mobility,from range without dunping your resourses!nah it is normal all classes can do it

[Augtastic]

wow, 5 buttons and you kill a full champion geared person,while you keep your mobility,from range without dunping your resourses!nah it is normal all classes can do it

 

Rail shot/High Impact Bolt proc is completely RNG and could very well lead to a complete "dunping of resourses" without a single attack.

 

This really isn't any different than a Mercenary or a Commando spamming TM/GR to proc unload and rapid fire, except that FB/IP does about half damage and eats through heat/ammo four times as fast.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Augtastic

[Blurps]

wow, 5 buttons and you kill a full champion geared person,while you keep your mobility,from range without dunping your resourses!nah it is normal all classes can do it

 

Might wanna educate yourself on the abilities mentioned here, buddy. Hint: Like the other BH/Vanguard specs Pyro/Assault have to be in melee to be fully effective, they are just slightly less useless at range.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the entire proc mechanic go, but that would require a redesign of the entire tree. Without the HiB/Rail Shot reset it would be pretty useless. With the underwhelming Tactics/Advanced Prototype tree that would leave that advanced class with Shield Spec and Shield hybrids only.

[Augtastic]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the entire proc mechanic go, but that would require a redesign of the entire tree. Without the HiB/Rail Shot reset it would be pretty useless. With the underwhelming Tactics/Advanced Prototype tree that would leave that advanced class with Shield Spec and Shield hybrids only.

 

People would still find something to complain about. Even if RS/HIB had only a 50% AP, there'd be someone who'd get killed by it, take a screenshot and use it as "evidence" of how overpowered it is, instead of realizing a 5k crit is an unbelievably lucky shot from a PT/Van who popped all his CDs and got some divine intervention.

[yukirshiro]

wow, 5 buttons and you kill a full champion geared person,while you keep your mobility,from range without dunping your resourses!nah it is normal all classes can do it

 

Uh not all those buttons can be used from range.

 

And it is a resource dump.

[Obie_Wan]

So the powertech got a 5.7k crit..with EVERY cooldown he has popped. That's not that impressive and is weak compared to what other classes can get in terms of a big number. (7.5k smashes that are also AOE) You also don't mention that if he gets unlucky (which happens more often times than not) that his only option is to spam you with flame burst/unload/rapid shots. Stop exaggerating the damage output. Fact is, it can have good damage out put, or be down right horrible. Luck of the draw.

 

You act as if Flame Burst / Unload / Rapid Shots doesn't do respectable damage on par with other DPS classes.

 

Finally the most ironic thing. 7k smashes is a tremendously rare thing, requiring EV level mod drops on all the gear, popping CDs and buffs to do. I was conservative when I said 5k crits aren't as rare and elusive as people claim, not 5.7k (of which I had a screenshot to back up my claims), and certainly not 6k. Yet you're coming in here with inflated numbers after accusing others of such, this is truly a DERP-quality read.

 

The burst that this class can do is monstrous, good is frankly an understatement. 6.5k crits and having a 9 second lull is something people can count on every single time and every class can counter it because they have a stun or knockback, some have both. Getting a thermal detonator thrown on you, and then being DoTed up, eating multiple 2k, 3k, 4k hits non-stop until death is even worst than a single 6.5k smash because at least the spikes ends there unless you stick around for the Ravage.

 

Frankly they need to tone down the damage and make it consistent, more survivability is absurd from what I'm seeing in warzones, but more mobility is perfectly reasonable.

Edited March 10, 2012 by CommunitySupportEN

[Augtastic]

You act as if Flame Burst / Unload / Rapid Shots doesn't do respectable damage on par with other DPS classes.

 

For the record, Flame Burst doesn't hit for that much. Neither does Unload for a PT.

 

7k smashes is a tremendously rare thing, requiring EV level mod drops on all the gear, popping CDs and buffs to do.

 

5k-6k Rail shots are just as rare as a 7k smash. Whoever hit you with that got unbelievably lucky.

[Obie_Wan]

For the record, Flame Burst doesn't hit for that much. Neither does Unload for a PT.

 

I only said respectable, I never said awesome though but fair enough.

 

5k-6k Rail shots are just as rare as a 7k smash. Whoever hit you with that got unbelievably lucky.

 

I honestly haven't ever been hit with a 6k railshot, myself. I'm more than willing to believe that a 5k - 5.7k crit is a rare thing. However there something that the Powertech/Vanguard DPSers needs to realize.

 

It's not that single crit alone that makes a Powertech/Vanguard dangerous. They don't output damage the same way as a Juggernaut does with a Smash.

 

For starters, you guys don't do a single huge monster crit. You guys put out good -STRINGS- of attacks that does painful damage, just like the OP listed and then follow it up with a painful Railshot that penetrates 90% of armour.

 

It isn't about that single powerful railshot crit. It is the large amount of damage that you guys are doing with a series of front loaded attacks that far surpasses the single chunk of a buffed smash. As the OP himself have said, that is roughly ~15k damage in total.

 

15k damage isn't a small number that's close to 90% of the average Champion/BM geared player's health pool. Juggernauts only have enough steam and CDs to pop off a Force Scream after expending focus to focus bomb.

 

 

Does this make Powertech/Vanguard OP though? I'm not saying that yet. I'll do a more thorough research, but they sure as heck aren't as disadvantaged as the defenders of the ACs are claiming and I certainly do dread having to deal with more than one well played Powertech/Vanguard. They might have their bad luck streaks, but right now the odds are usually against the victims.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Obie_Wan

[Dee-Jay]

It's just poor class design. Classes that rely so heavily on procs which can result in crazy damage spikes don't make for fun pvp. It's MMO 101.

 

I think there a quite a few poor design decision currently in game.

 

Focus Guardians/Rage Juggernauts having ~70% of their damage pumped into 1 attack (Force Sweep) with pitiful damage outside of it, but ridiculous burst with it.

 

Lethality Operatives/Scoundrels who's only redeeming feature is their opening stun + burst damage and who have little to offer outside of that opener.

 

 

Essentially a lot of SWTOR classes are 1-trick ponies. These tricks may be borderline OP at times, but the classes are not.

 

Marauders/Sentinels and Sages/Inquisitors seem much better designed and more "rounded".

[Esteledain]

In a 1v1 I have no issues with a Powertech. They die just as easily as anything else. Sure, some defences here and there, but I'm the patient kind... No nerf necessary.

[MrFroggy]

An equally geared and decent marauder can easily beat a powertech, no problem.

[-nuc-]

I only said respectable, I never said awesome though but fair enough.

 

 

 

I honestly haven't ever been hit with a 6k railshot, myself. I'm more than willing to believe that a 5k - 5.7k crit is a rare thing. However there something that the Powertech/Vanguard DPSers needs to realize.

 

It's not that single crit alone that makes a Powertech/Vanguard dangerous. They don't output damage the same way as a Juggernaut does with a Smash.

 

For starters, you guys don't do a single huge monster crit. You guys put out good -STRINGS- of attacks that does painful damage, just like the OP listed and then follow it up with a painful Railshot that penetrates 90% of armour.

 

It isn't about that single powerful railshot crit. It is the large amount of damage that you guys are doing with a series of front loaded attacks that far surpasses the single chunk of a buffed smash. As the OP himself have said, that is roughly ~15k damage in total.

 

15k damage isn't a small number that's close to 90% of the average Champion/BM geared player's health pool. Juggernauts only have enough steam and CDs to pop off a Force Scream after expending focus to focus bomb.

 

 

Does this make Powertech/Vanguard OP though? I'm not saying that yet. I'll do a more thorough research, but they sure as heck aren't as disadvantaged as the defenders of the ACs are claiming and I certainly do dread having to deal with more than one well played Powertech/Vanguard. They might have their bad luck streaks, but right now the odds are usually against the victims.

 

 

its 15 k if EVERYTHING crits, thats got to be rare.

Edited March 10, 2012 by CommunitySupportEN