PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Seregul]

No they understand stand it. They just can't accept it.

 

Not having the ability to immediately judge someone else is why this thread continues. Not cause they can't see what there doing and judge themselves in the current meters were getting.

 

They have to judge others even when it doesn't matter.

 

Judgement, whether good or bad, is completely unavoidable when you have a group of people working towards a common goal. If giving us truncated combat logs is intended to curtail that, then it is a very poor solution. Even with personal logs you could infer the quality of the other people in your group.

[DarthKhaos]

yawn, this again...

How many times i saw in MMO tools like combat logs, dps meters and other **** used wrongly by players.

So a new guy joined a group hits first mobs, some look dps right away to see if they are on top and who is at bottom of the list....than starts the rant omg XXXXX is doing only XXXXDPS kick him he is newb...

Its soo rare for me to see when thos "elite" gives advice to newb in a group how to do better, nah its faster to kick and replace or tell them go google it.

You do have a point. The majority of people (esp when you look at some posts in other thread with people so against socializing) would not take the time to assist a player to get better.

[Daellia]

No they understand stand it. They just can't accept it.

 

Not having the ability to immediately judge someone else is why this thread continues. Not cause they can't see what there doing and judge themselves in the current meters were getting.

 

They have to judge others even when it doesn't matter.

 

It's about being able to run raid analytics, not judge people. I don't raid with pugs, I raid with guildies, so I don't care about judging others to feel superior. I care about fixing issues with my regular raider group so we can kill bosses easier, faster, and more reliably.

 

And honestly, I could care less how much damage you pull in a flashpoint. There isn't a flashpoint boss in the game that I can't dps sufficiently to kill, even if you (the other dps) are literally just sitting there with your thumbs up your butt.

[Charliff]

I think the moderation of overheated posts in this thread speaks volumes about how BioWare expects it's players to treat one another. It makes total sense why they will introduce combat logs in a form that will be more difficult to abuse other players with.

 

QFE. People now have a private combat log. Those who want to use it now have the option to do so. Those who don't want a log are happy now too. The only way people will be berated is by giving the log themselves when someone asks for it. And thank god for that.

[genesiser]

Wait - You play a video game and in some way you gain some personal pride out of it? No wonder that was one of the seven deadly sins Shazam warned me about.

 

If so, you really need to get out and do something more constructive.

 

Is it so crazy to tell someone to take pride in their character because it's a video game? Let's face it, playing mmos is basically a hobby.

 

If someone's hobby is cooking, they take pride in it and make sure they have the recipes correct and try to make their food look and taste great.

 

If someone's hobby is collecting cars, they take pride in it and make sure they are polished so they look great and display them to look great.

 

If someone's hobby is building model airplanes, they take pride in it and follow directions and make sure every detail is correct.

 

If someone's hobby is playing an mmo, they should treat it like a real hobby and take a bit of pride in their character especially since when playing with a group, your character directly effects the others in the group and can help them enjoy the group or hate the group. Also, here's a little secret. If you take pride in your character and you become really good with it, you'll enjoy the game more because you know your character directly helped with the success of the group. Having a good performance, no matter what you are doing will make you enjoy that activity more.

 

When I say take pride in your character I don't mean become a super hardcore player and spend every waking moment trying to perfect your character. (That turns it into an obsession, not a hobby) I mean take some time to learn the ins and outs of your character, which let's face it, isn't hard. That way when you group with other people you'll be an asset to the team as opposed to a liability. Also by doing that, you'll no longer worry about people seeing your numbers because you'll have nothing to worry about.

[genesiser]

One more thing I'd like to say.

 

Damage meters are like looking at someone in a swimsuit.

 

If someone takes pride in their body they workout, are in shape, and generally look great. When they do that, they don't mind if people look at them in their swimsuit and in some cases, they enjoy it.

 

If someone doesn't take pride in their body they are overweight, out of shape, and get nervous when others see them in a swimsuit and some go to the extremes of not going out in public because of the snide remarks others make about them.

 

The same is with damage meters.

 

If you take pride in your character you'll generally be a good player and can put out solid numbers. If you do that, then you don't mind damage meters and in some cases enjoy them.

 

If you don't take pride in your character you'll probably be a bad player or average at best and your numbers reflect that. Knowing that your numbers are low you won't like damage meters because others will see your poor performance and they will make snide remarks.

Edited March 13, 2012 by genesiser

[ScarletBlaze]

One more thing I'd like to say.

 

Damage meters are like looking at someone with no clothes on.

 

If someone takes pride in their body they workout, are in shape, and generally look great. When they do that, they don't mind if people look at them and in some cases, they enjoy it.

 

No I don't. I don't want just anyone to see me with no clothes on, sorry to burst your bubble. That right is reserve for my special guy not everyone so that anaology is wrong.

[Matte_Black]

It's also entirely possible to have pride in your character and play on different terms. Certainly MMOs get played with different goals in mind. Are you playing to develop a rich story, be the best at PvP, be the best at flashpoints and ops, discover the most badges/items in the game or even be popular among other player characters? All are valid but that doesn't mean the game should allow players to start dictating to others how they have to play based on progression toward one group's ideal.

 

We likely measure what we have pride in by different counts so, their is no reason you need the data to judge me by the measures that matter to you, your goals and your character.

[genesiser]

 

No I don't. I don't want just anyone to see me with no clothes on, sorry to burst your bubble. That right is reserve for my special guy not everyone so that anaology is wrong.

 

Well then I'll replace being naked with going to the beach and wearing a swimsuit.

[GalacticKegger]

It's about being able to run raid analytics, not judge people. I don't raid with pugs, I raid with guildies, so I don't care about judging others to feel superior. I care about fixing issues with my regular raider group so we can kill bosses easier, faster, and more reliably.

 

And honestly, I could care less how much damage you pull in a flashpoint. There isn't a flashpoint boss in the game that I can't dps sufficiently to kill, even if you (the other dps) are literally just sitting there with your thumbs up your butt.

Casuals. They have viable skills and can hold their own in a fair fight. They excel in team environments that have zero tolerance for narcissism. They let go of their perfectionist edge because games just aren't that important. They bask in the heat of battle but have no desire to fight an entire war. They keep it in their pants because that's what decent people do. They play to win - just not at all costs. When they pat you on the back, you can add it to your resumé. And when they drink, they drink Dos Equis. Stay thirsty my friends . . . Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[genesiser]

It's also entirely possible to have pride in your character and play on different terms. Certainly MMOs get played with different goals in mind. Are you playing to develop a rich story, be the best at PvP, be the best at flashpoints and ops, discover the most badges/items in the game or even be popular among other player characters? All are valid but that doesn't mean the game should allow players to start dictating to others how they have to play based on progression toward one group's ideal.

 

We likely measure what we have pride in by different counts so, their is no reason you need the data to judge me by the measures that matter to you, your goals and your character.

 

I understand what you are saying and it's a good point. Now if this was a single player game then I would totally agree with you. However when you have group play for flash points, operations, or pvp, then what you do becomes the group's business because the goal of the group is to complete or win that activity. How you play directly effects the group and your character has a direct impact on the people in the group. The others in the group should have every right to see how your character performs because your performance determines the success or failure of the group.

[terminova]

One more thing I'd like to say.

 

Damage meters are like looking at someone with no clothes on.

 

If someone takes pride in their body they workout, are in shape, and generally look great. When they do that, they don't mind if people look at them when they have no clothes on and in some cases, they enjoy it.

 

If someone doesn't take pride in their body they are overweight, out of shape, and get nervous when others see them naked and some go to the extremes of not going out in public because of the snide remarks others make about them.

 

Social norms can really skew what is considered "acceptable" and make even those who are in shape feel bad about their body.

 

The same is with damage meters.

 

If you take pride in your character you'll generally be a good player and can put out solid numbers. If you do that, then you don't mind damage meters and in some cases enjoy them.

 

If you don't take pride in your character you'll probably be a bad player or average at best and your numbers reflect that. Knowing that your numbers are low you won't like damage meters because others will see your poor performance and they will make snide remarks.

 

The same happens with Damage Meters, except it's not about how one's body looks, but how one's DPS "just isn't good enough" even though it's perfectly fine.

 

 

Like judging someone by how they look, judging someone by their DPS is simply superficial and meaningless.

 

DPS is like the cover of a book, you might want to read the book before judging it by the cover.

[Quraswren]

 

Well then I'll replace being naked with going to the beach and wearing a swimsuit.

 

Thats why they make cover-ups. To keep some of that judgement out.

 

Bw just gave a cover-up to everyone. Sure, you can look at yourself in the mirror all day long and you can ask someone else to send you a pic with there cover-up off but you don't get to do it yourself.

 

It's a good plan.

 

Is it so crazy to tell someone to take pride in their character because it's a video game? Let's face it, playing mmos is basically a hobby.

 

 

SNIP...

 

I try to avoid being prideful in something as mundane as a video game.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Quraswren

[Tiddex]

I love to check this thread on a daily basis. it it keeps swinging from the utmost reasonable ethic-driven discussion to a full-auto trollfest and back again.

 

What it all comes down to for me is this: if you cannot agree over a topic in a democracy you should try to find a solution that gives everyone the opportunity to follow his own ideas as far as possible without affecting the freedom of others to do so as well.

 

I guess the solution BW found so far is a perfect resemblance of this idea: giving combat logs to anyone with the option to share them afterwards but without changing the experience for anyone who is opposing the idea.

[genesiser]

I try to avoid being prideful in something as mundane as a video game.

 

In other words, "I don't care about how my character performs or what others think about how I play." Seeing as you don't care what others think, then why do you get upset about damage meters? If you don't have pride and don't care, then why do you not like others seeing how your perform. I mean, not having pride means you don't care. If you don't care, then you shouldn't care what other people think when they see your numbers.

Edited March 13, 2012 by genesiser

[ScarletBlaze]

One more thing I'd like to say.

 

Damage meters are like looking at someone in a swimsuit.

 

If someone takes pride in their body they workout, are in shape, and generally look great. When they do that, they don't mind if people look at them in their swimsuit and in some cases, they enjoy it.

 

If someone doesn't take pride in their body they are overweight, out of shape, and get nervous when others see them in a swimsuit and some go to the extremes of not going out in public because of the snide remarks others make about them

.

 

Depends on the person. If they compare themselves to some of the models/actress out there that are as skinny as a rail that you can see their bones then no.

 

Unfortunely the media/social area has bred that into teenagers/young ladies that you have to look like that to be acceptable and that's not the case.

 

Some ladies think if you don't look like a paper doll you are not pretty and that is far from the case so that anology is still wrong as their are ladies/teenagers who are beautiful but they don't think so because of what society has deemed beautiful.

 

Society is juding beauty by a scale that is so messed up it isn't funny.

 

The same is with damage meters.

 

If you take pride in your character you'll generally be a good player and can put out solid numbers. If you do that, then you don't mind damage meters and in some cases enjoy them.

 

If you don't take pride in your character you'll probably be a bad player or average at best and your numbers reflect that. Knowing that your numbers are low you won't like damage meters because others will see your poor performance and they will make snide remarks.

 

So in using your analogy the same could be said for damage meters. The acceptable "norm" for damage meters could be based off a few individuals and that could be wrong.

[Tiddex]

In other words, "I don't care about how my character performs or what others think about how I play." Seeing as you don't care what others think, then why do you get upset about damage meters? If you don't have pride and don't care, then why do you not like others seeing how your perform. I mean, not having pride means you don't care. If you don't care, then you shouldn't care what other people think when they see your numbers.

 

Don´t mix pride with self-consciousness.

[DarthKhaos]

Is it so crazy to tell someone to take pride in their character because it's a video game? Let's face it, playing mmos is basically a hobby.

 

If someone's hobby is cooking, they take pride in it and make sure they have the recipes correct and try to make their food look and taste great.

 

If someone's hobby is collecting cars, they take pride in it and make sure they are polished so they look great and display them to look great.

 

If someone's hobby is building model airplanes, they take pride in it and follow directions and make sure every detail is correct.

 

If someone's hobby is playing an mmo, they should treat it like a real hobby and take a bit of pride in their character especially since when playing with a group, your character directly effects the others in the group and can help them enjoy the group or hate the group. Also, here's a little secret. If you take pride in your character and you become really good with it, you'll enjoy the game more because you know your character directly helped with the success of the group. Having a good performance, no matter what you are doing will make you enjoy that activity more.

 

When I say take pride in your character I don't mean become a super hardcore player and spend every waking moment trying to perfect your character. (That turns it into an obsession, not a hobby) I mean take some time to learn the ins and outs of your character, which let's face it, isn't hard. That way when you group with other people you'll be an asset to the team as opposed to a liability. Also by doing that, you'll no longer worry about people seeing your numbers because you'll have nothing to worry about.

So true. This guy isn't talking about understanding the strengths and weaknesses of every advance class so you can find the best one or figure out a way to be better than the rest. He's talking about understanding (more than a role playing way) what your character can do.

 

I guess the solution BW found so far is a perfect resemblance of this idea: giving combat logs to anyone with the option to share them afterwards but without changing the experience for anyone who is opposing the idea.

And this is the thing. The majority of people against combat logs are more against public not private combat logs so those elites who love to number crunch can so they can find the most optimum build, rotation, stats, etc etc etc for a class.

Edited March 13, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[CaMiCaZiE]

the only reason i can find against the public combat logs are people who are embarresed for their low dps.

 

if you suck we will notice with or without dmg metres.

[Stupiddrummer]

without full combat metrics, the hardcore crowd will never be happy.

 

Without the hardcore crowd, this game will not last very long.

 

and all the while the casuals can just choose not to use logs and everyone will be happy.

[Drewser]

the only reason i can find against the public combat logs are people who are embarresed for their low dps.

 

if you suck we will notice with or without dmg metres.

 

Well then you have not read or understood many of the 1000+ posts on this topic.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Drewser

[GalacticKegger]

the only reason i can find against the public combat logs are people who are embarresed for their low dps.

 

if you suck we will notice with or without dmg metres.

If this is the case then real time meters do little but enforce one's opinion that other people suck. Exactly why they are not a need but a want. Enforcement of opinion and want seems invaluable to some in this thread. BTW ... who is we? Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Stupiddrummer]

Well then you have not read or understood many of the 1000+ posts on this topic.

 

i havent heard a LOGICAL argument against combat logs. Anecdotes and theories about social degradation as the result of combat logs aren't doing it for me.

 

Go figure, guy that wants combat logs also requires objective evidence.

 

You can say that the community will deteriorate all you want but there is no evidence for that claim.

[GalacticKegger]

i havent heard a LOGICAL argument against combat logs. Anecdotes and theories about social degradation as the result of combat logs aren't doing it for me.

 

Go figure, guy that wants combat logs also requires objective evidence.

 

You can say that the community will deteriorate all you want but there is no evidence for that claim.

But you have heard LOGICAL arguments against combat logs. You've merely chosen to belittle them as personal heresy. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Drewser]

i havent heard a LOGICAL argument against combat logs. Anecdotes and theories about social degradation as the result of combat logs aren't doing it for me.

 

Go figure, guy that wants combat logs also requires objective evidence.

 

You can say that the community will deteriorate all you want but there is no evidence for that claim.

 

Well then you have not read or understood many of the 1000+ posts on this topic.