pyrobot Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Reading the arguments against combat logs, I realize two possibilities. 1. The people against combat logs, who have completed current ops on harder difficulties don't realize that Hard Mode and Nightmare Mode are supposed to get harder. 2. The harder difficulties aren't actually going to be harder. With the way the devs spoke about the new op not being about gear/stats, but more about execution, it sounds like any group can complete it right out of the gate at 50 as long as they watch the fight before hand. Really, I think the second possibility is far more likely than anything at this point. Maybe we're not getting harder content, we're just getting content with more stuff going on. If numbers aren't going to be our challenge, how are you going to actually make it difficult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You can all stop posting in this thread now. Oh geez. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 So you can spam it? No thanks. This is the tool we need to do the thing we claim to what to do, right? Analyze performance. You want to weave your e-peen. If you didn't, the above logging would be enough, so don't even bother denying it. see, another baseless claim. all of these responses are based on assumptions. You assume that im going to waive my epeen and spam logs. i just want to analyze my on play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Damn, thats great news. Pretty nice compromise if you ask me. Way too difficult to keep following during combat and brag with it (as some have feared) but still lets others to see what went wrong after wipe (and you can see how you did compared to rest after raid ends). Thumbs up for bw! Agreed. It's a good compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 see, another baseless claim. You're new to this genre. It's not a baseless claim, it's something those of us that have been playing MMOs for years and years have seen thousands of times. It's real. It happens. You're just clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vraesh Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No. Honestly, if you keep whining for combat logs, it's worse than a pack of kids in the back of the car asking every 2 minutes if we're there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) and it's too bad they aint getting anymore of my money. It's their game, but theyre taking it in a direction that will accomidate casuals, who will leave after they hit 50 (if they get that far), while ignoring the hardcore players, who stay well after lvl 50 for more indepth, end game content. by ignoring hardcore players you do a disservice to the game and the game's community.I personally, as well as my wife and fellow guildmates all think the game rocks. Our first guild toons have just reached 50 and we're still exploring, wiping on hard modes, and generally enjoying figuring out boss mechanics for ourselves. BioWare has done a great service to players like us who can handle hard content while choosing not to be legends in our own minds. We find it's easier making friends that way. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 see, another baseless claim. all of these responses are based on assumptions. You assume that im going to waive my epeen and spam logs. i just want to analyze my on play. If that was true then what you are getting is enough to analyze your play. Congrats! You're getting what you just asked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i disagree with Bioware, because its a compromise with people that wont even use combat logs in the first place. Learning to compromise between two diferent sets of people is actually smart business sense. No business can survive if they ignore one group over another. And your definition of casual may be entirely different than most people Most of the people I play with I guess you would consider casual as we all have r/l responsiblities, jobs and stuff but we enjoy playing the game just as much as anyone else. And quite the contary the ones that have hit 50 have not quit as your post implies, they are still playing. Bioware is doing what they think is best between the two different groups. In business there are times you make a decision some don't like but you look at every angle and come up with a compromise and this is what they have done. Edited March 13, 2012 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I personally, as well as my wife and fellow guildmates all think the game rocks. Our first toons have just reached 50 and we're still exploring, wiping on hard modes, and generally enjoying figuring out boss mechanics for ourselves. BioWare has done a great service to players like us who can handle hard content while choosing not to be legends in our own minds. We find it's easier making friends that way. you seem to assume they cant accommodae both our styles of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) The poll is asking the wrong question. The question that needs to be asked and answered is this... Do you want content that, upon release, requires such a degree of min / maxing and near flawless maximum performance from each individual in a group in order to beat such that the absence of combat logs would hinder progression? Many of the players against combat logs are using the argument that since they have beaten hard mode and nightmare mode without logs, that logs are not required. Yet even the developers have stated the current operations are not really difficult, just that hard mode and nightmare mode have more strict gear checks in place. They have also stated they want to begin notching up the difficulty level in future operations. So again, the question isn't whether you want logs or not, but rather whether you want content that is sufficiently difficult that players without near perfect specs playing in optimized group compositions with near flawless performance will fail or whether you want more of the same difficulty we have today, which is to say content that simply requires using a bit of common sense with a bit of gear to complete. I personally vote for content that is difficult enough that playing at maximum performance is required in order to progress, because knowing I have to play at my best to succeed is something I enjoy and provides and ongoing motivation to always look for ays to improve myself. And while I'd love to see all players succeed at the most difficult content, I don't think for the hardest level it should be dumbed down to accommodate those unwilling to what it takes to maximize their performance. Like others have said, those are the players who belong in story mode. Edited March 13, 2012 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) you seem to assume they cant accommodae both our styles of play.They can and do, but you're the one who called their ignoring hardcore players a disservice, whereas I merely praised them for their efforts. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Well, darn, I'm confused and disappointed now in Bioware. After the summit speechs I thought they had come to a good compromise on personal logging. I guess I just wait now to see what they actually give us on the PTS before concerning myself with this issue any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 you seem to assume they cant accommodae both our styles of play. They just did. We get logs to be hardcore with, while casuals don't have to get beat over the head with DPS meter spam in every hard mode instance. Real data without the e-peen waving. It's win-win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If that was true then what you are getting is enough to analyze your play. Congrats! You're getting what you just asked for. They're half assing it. Players that really want that data are going to get it how they can. It would be nice if they made it a little more convenient than giving me an out of game text file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retzilla Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 This- the way they're doing it gives guilds all the ability to look at everyone's data by making it mandatory for ops runners to share- while everyone else does not have to participate, while also having the tools there to improve. It's a win-win situation for everyone except for that nosy person who just wants to judge and insult people during meaningless pug runs. I havent had the need to run a flashpoint or a pug in all of my time on this game. I could care less about the casuals afking in the fleet, but what i do care about are the casuals that act like they know what they are talking about and try to disguise getting made fun of on the internet the worst thing in the world. and the argument for in-game combat logs isnt to make fun of everything, its for the convenience of instantly having data on hand rather than having to take 10 mins to go to an out of game source and getting it wasting copious amounts of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're half assing it. Players that really want that data are going to get it how they can. It would be nice if they made it a little more convenient than giving me an out of game text file. What's missing and why is it important? This ought to be good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 What's missing and why is it important? This ought to be good... What's missing? how about the game? give me the meters in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retzilla Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Just reading some of these posts makes my head spin. The logic that we do not need combat logs simply because the first tier of content is so easy that a monkey could down it is just mind boggling. I have gone into normal modes and even some of the hard modes with 7 people and been able to down this content when we have been in greens. This content is not hard and Bioware has specifically stated that it is going to get harder from here on out. I would rather know in the future if we cannot down a boss due to hitting enrage who is holding us back and not pulling their weight. The argument that we want to hide our dps or hps because we might not be pulling our weight is the worst argument in the entire world. As someone said earlier it is like if I went into a job and didn't want my supervisor to watch me well I sat in the back doing nothing well still getting paid. The same logic applies to someone who is getting carried through the content doing awful dps and getting fed loot just because we cannot see what they are doing. Hiding combat logs simply because you don't have the desire to take 10 minutes out of your day to read a couple posts on how to play at least a little better is just inexcusable. If you don't want to take the time to learn how to play the game then that is your problem. If the only real argument to get rid of a useful system that can feed the people who actually care information they would like to know is simply I don't want to be embarrassed or because I don't want to deal with elitest jerks then I do feel sorry for all of you. If you don't want to deal with the combat logs then find a group of people who think like you and play with them instead of refusing to accept what is a very helpful tool to people who would actually like to see what happened on any given pull without having to question everyone in the raid. And before someone says well we don't want cookie cutter builds or we want to do our own thing because we like it better then thats fine. I have absolutely no problem with someone who likes a certain spec even though it isn't what is considered "the best" as long as they can pull their weight. If we are still downing content and if we are still progressing through it then I could care less what you are doing or how you are specced. My point is I don't want to be carrying someone through a raid or wiping because lets say they are doing 500 dps on a boss where everyone else in the raid is doing 2k to 2.5k. If they are all in the same type of gear explain to me how it is fair to the people actually doing their fair share to lose gear or time to someone who cannot even be challenged to do half of their dps. i refer to you this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're half assing it. Players that really want that data are going to get it how they can. It would be nice if they made it a little more convenient than giving me an out of game text file. So now your upset cause of a little inconvenience at data crunching? Hell, you will never be happy till you get what you want and screw the rest. It's the best compromise for both sides and if you have to jump through a small hurdle to get the data so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrobot Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Some guilds may require it but contary to what you post implies not all guilds will. Yeah, that was my point, I wasn't contradicting myself at all, you're just trying to act like I'm wrong. I'm completely right, and regardless of whether or not we get real-time logs for all party/op members, people are still going to get kicked, their feelings are still going to get hurt, and there's going to be an even bigger divide in the community. Not having logs isn't going to save anyone from criticism at all, it's just like outlawing drugs; people will still do them. Basically, no group logs or not, people are going to get kicked, their feelings are going to get hurt, and bioware can't stop judgement between players. I can't say I agree with how seriously some people take poor performance, but it happens. I wouldn't indiscriminately kick players because they under perform in one fight, but if they do it 6 times in a row and continue to cause wipes, they're looking for a new raid group. No one here can say that they wouldn't do the same, truthfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're half assing it. Players that really want that data are going to get it how they can. It would be nice if they made it a little more convenient than giving me an out of game text file. I was doing some analyzing with combat information in Perfect World a few years ago. The place I did all my analytics was offline using a spreadsheet. All the data was copied by hand, and I would have killed for a down-loadable log. And you're complaining they are giving you a down-loadable log? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) What's missing? how about the game? give me the meters in the game. Now why is that important? Why is parsing a log outside of the game insufficient? Because you can't spam your e-peen after a hard mode. That's really the only reason. You want to wave your e-peen. Then you say it's a "baseless assumption" that this will happen. Hilarious. I know your type all too well. This is why we shouldn't have DPS meters. You guys ruin it for the rest of us. Edited March 13, 2012 by JustTed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 So now your upset cause of a little inconvenience at data crunching? Hell, you will never be happy till you get what you want and screw the rest. It's the best compromise for both sides and if you have to jump through a small hurdle to get the data so be it. i could analyze my dps now by writing down all my dmg and sticking it into a calculator, but i wont cuz that's inconvenient. Making it a little less inconvenient is an improvement, but not by much. The way i see it is - i want combat meters. You dont want me to have combat meters. Why dont you want me to have them? It's not like i am depriving you of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 What's missing? how about the game? give me the meters in the game. They are....didn't you read the Guild Summit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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