PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[ferroz]

If everyone played responsibly and used the tools responsibly, I'd have no issue. The problem is there is a sizable segment of the player base that misue logs against others. Sad fact, simple fact.

Based on the numbers you folks are touting, that segment is less than 27% of the player base. Surely that won't actually inconvenience you, since they're such a small minority.

 

edit: especially since much of that 27% are interested in it for guild runs specifically (or so they've posted), making it even less likely that you'd run into them in game.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ferroz

[Fiddyy]

No. For all the reasons previously discussed.

 

We will not allow BioWare to cave in to cries for comprehensive logs. We will not become another WoW. We will not go quietly into the night. We are going to stand strong. We are going to fight. We are going to win. We will not be cowed by the hardcore crowd. We will be the vocal majority and we will not falter.

 

Can you at least give a logical and useful argument as to why you don't want them? "We don't want this to be WoW," and "We don't want to be treated badly" aren't arguments. They're just you admitting you know you would be made fun of.

[Rebeldad]

You still trying to convince people they need this? I don't need a crutch to tell me if I am doing my job correctly. You do it seems.

Just accept what the poll you made says. Most of us do NOT want a general combat log.

[Rebeldad]

Based on the numbers you folks are touting, that segment is less than 27% of the player base. Surely that won't actually inconvenience you, since they're such a small minority.

 

Based on your logic then hate groups or such should be allowed to do what they want no matter what the majority says?

[ferroz]

You still trying to convince people they need this? I don't need a crutch to tell me if I am doing my job correctly. You do it seems.

Eh, one of us is good with a subjective gut feeling and the other would like objective data.

[Fiddyy]

Summing up all posts against logs.

 

"We know we will never be topping meters, and thus do not require combat logs. Furthermore we don't want to be made fun of by "elitist jerks.""

 

Good argument! Better yourself, and don't come on here making it less fun for those of us who like to know who's doing what DPS wise.

 

The, "We don't want this to be WoW" argument is absurd. Why would we not want this game to get 12 million subs? Also, elaborate, most of you just say "DONT WANT TO BE WOW," without an elaboration.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Fiddyy

[ferroz]

Based on your logic then hate groups or such should be allowed to do what they want no matter what the majority says?

No, based on my logic we shouldn't outlaw hammers just because someone has been murdered with one.

 

based on my logic we should allow minority groups freedom of speech, even if we don't like what they're saying.

[Seregul]

BioWare has it right. Maybe I am being conservative but, until there is a real meaningful mechanism in place to prevent public logs from being misused, I'd rather not provide potential griefing tools. If they did something like where the consequence for unwanted harrassment of a player about their performance was to shut down access to the combat log system to the offending party for increasing amounts of time, I might reconsider it but, it's probably not worth the moderation effort just to make assessing others quick, automatic and convenient.

 

Even personal logs can be used to grief people. A more direct approach would be to argue in favor of a comprehensive toolkit meant to combat griefers.

[Meurik]

An overwhelming majority of the people who voted in the poll (currently 74% to 26%), favor the method described by Bioware, that is an "Out of game, personal combat log".

 

I agree 100% with Bioware's decision on how to make the "Combat Log". In the end, the only things I care about are:

 

Did the enemy die?

 

If Yes, good on you.

If No, what killed me?

[ferroz]

Even personal logs can be used to grief people. A more direct approach would be to argue in favor of a comprehensive toolkit meant to combat griefers.

Personally, I've always been of the belief that the best weapon against these sort of people is the truth... it's one of the reasons I'd imagine people are in favor of a full log. Edited March 12, 2012 by ferroz

[Sytharin]

Any game that does not show numbers and damage in a log that can be analyzed and improved upon will not succeed unless it's an FPS. Bugs get fixed by analyzing combat logs. Characters improve their performance by checking battle logs. Classes get balanced. Raids get optimized. Hardmodes stay hard. Those that argue against combat logs are one of two types of people:

 

Those that are comfortable that bosses die and do not want to care about how much damage/healing they do.

 

Or

 

Those that think combat logs provide transparency to players that do not understand combat mechanics as a whole.

 

Both of these arguments are flawed.

 

First, you may feel that way, but others do not. If you don't care how much damage you do, don't look at the log. Exclusion should not be the rule of thumb. Choice should. Should you chose to not improve yourself when others are actively working and theorycrafting to get the most out of every button, you simply do not deserve a raid slot over the character that is trying harder than you. End of story.

 

The second argument, while holding more water than the first, is equally flawed. Transparency is a requisite for MMOs in these times. WoW has set the bar, mechanics wise, for games to shoot for. The cries of X class did more damage than Y spec is a relevant and pertinent complaint, as long as they are grounded in simple mathematical fact. Facts that come from combat log analysis. This helps balance, helps construct hard modes, and gives players a basis upon which feedback from theorycrafters can be used and proved.

 

It is as simple as that. Combat logs are mandatory, not requested. A requisite and right, not a question of I don't want it.

 

If you alienate theorycrafters, all support of the hardcore playerbase eventually falls.

[Seregul]

Personally, I've always been of the belief that the best weapon against these sort of people is the truth... it's one of the reasons I'd imagine people are in favor of a full log.

 

Pretty much, yeah. I understand the opposition though, reality checks rarely tickle.

[Stupiddrummer]

they should just add a button, so if someone is being a jerk to you, it allows you to ignore them. That way, if someone makes fun of your dps, you can ignore them and pretend like they dont even exist. Problem solved! Bioware make it happen!!

[Englefield]

Can you at least give a logical and useful argument as to why you don't want them? "We don't want this to be WoW," and "We don't want to be treated badly" aren't arguments. They're just you admitting you know you would be made fun of.

 

There have been some fair points, both logical and useful, but they're just matters of opinions and those with the opposite opinion will just reject them as being invalid. That's not a dig at you because it happens the other way too.

 

However this is not really the issue. Bioware have made a decision with this and apparently most people agree. So now it's really up to those who want a fuller recount style combat log to justify that and try to convince everyone else.

 

To be fair there have been some excellent points raised, but then the thread becomes bogged down by this "You don't want logs because you must suck" nonsense. This thread might have had visitors with an open mind but that sort of argument is not going to make them see it your way. In fact that kind of attitude goes some way to prove the point the 'no' camp are making.

 

Recount style combat logs are an excellent tool, but let's not pretend that they won't have at least some detrimental effect on the community.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Englefield

[Englefield]

Summing up all posts against logs.

 

"We know we will never be topping meters, and thus do not require combat logs. Furthermore we don't want to be made fun of by "elitist jerks.""

 

Good argument! Better yourself, and don't come on here making it less fun for those of us who like to know who's doing what DPS wise.

 

The, "We don't want this to be WoW" argument is absurd. Why would we not want this game to get 12 million subs? Also, elaborate, most of you just say "DONT WANT TO BE WOW," without an elaboration.

 

Yes, that was an excellent and detailed summary of all posts in this thread.

[ferroz]

There have been some fair points, both logical and useful, but they're just matters of opinions and those with the opposite opinion will just reject them as being invalid. That's not a dig at you because it happens the other way too.

If it's opinion, then those arguments are being rejected because they are indeed invalid.

 

try using an objective, non-opinion based argument.

 

 

Recount style combat logs are an excellent tool, but let's not pretend that they won't have at least some detrimental effect on the community.

THey won't have a detrimental effect on the community... that's not pretending. That's just refusing to blame the hammer for murder...

[ferroz]

they should just add a button, so if someone is being a jerk to you, it allows you to ignore them. That way, if someone makes fun of your dps, you can ignore them and pretend like they dont even exist.

I'm pretty sure that's impossible for BW to add

[Vydor_HC]

There have been some fair points, both logical and useful, but they're just matters of opinions and those with the opposite opinion will just reject them as being invalid. That's not a dig at you because it happens the other way too.

 

However this is not really the issue. Bioware have made a decision with this and apparently most people agree. So now it's really up to those who want a fuller recount style combat log to justify that and try to convince everyone else.

 

To be fair there have been some excellent points raised, but then the thread becomes bogged down by this "You don't want logs because you must suck" nonsense. This thread might have had visitors with an open mind but that sort of argument is not going to make them see it your way. In fact that kind of attitude goes some way to prove the point the 'no' camp are making.

 

Recount style combat logs are an excellent tool, but let's not pretend that they won't have at least some detrimental effect on the community.

 

Agreed.

 

Both sides have made good pitches, this has been going on for a long time here on the forums. I'm glad to see the developers shares my view of the detrimental effect on the game with group wide logs.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[crimsonsglory]

It's disruptive to the group and achieves nothing except an ego stroke for the douche bags.

 

Achieves Nothing? I rather have douche bags + meters then no douche bags and no meters. Best senario is no douche bags + meters.

You seems to have a very negative views in things.

 

Just look in the forums, there are already jerks and douche bags in most threads, and meters don't exist here.

 

Sigh.. Blinded and hardening of their hearts

[Daellia]

However this is not really the issue. Bioware have made a decision with this and apparently most people agree.

 

Can we please stop using this argument? The fact that 74% of the two hundred fifty people that have voted on this poll prefer the current method is about as compelling, statistically, as recording the make and model of the first 250 people you see drive down your road and claiming it representative of the entire state's car preference (actually, depending on your state, the statistical certitude may be pretty close to the same between those two).

 

It's not "most people agree". It's "most of the 0.015% of the game's player base that voted in this poll agree". The magnitude of the poll is utterly miniscule compared to the population, the results of it have zero statistical validity.

 

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the portion of the game's population that is against comprehensive combat logs is larger than the portion in favor of them. That said, I also wouldn't be surprised if both segments are less than 15% of the game's population each, with a good 3/4ths of the game's population completely ambivalent on the topic and fine with either outcome.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Daellia

[Azzras]

Out of 242 votes thus far, 73% agree with BW's approach to combat logs.

 

I say, see what they give us and go from there.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Azzras

[bhouse]

I must be taking crazy pills because people keep saying that there are tons of GOOD arguments against them, I just do not see them.

 

So I guess I will post this a THIRD time because the only responses I got the first two times were "people will BECOME jerks" and "because bioware said so"

 

here we go, third time is the charm

 

"Is there a summary somewhere that shows arguments against in-game, group-wide combat logs?

 

I see pretty good arguments for them, but the arguments against them are as simple as "no" or "they are for epeen only" or "because bioware said so" or "people become jerks" or "it ruins community" (btw WoW had combat logs FAR before the community went downhill...the anonymity of cross server LFG was the leading cause of that, NOT combat logs) so I just want to see some of the strong arguments against having them."

[lollermittens]

I guess the coziness offered by ignorance trumps the hard cold facts presented by quantitative, accurate data. People on these forums rather rely on "gut feelings" and "shots in the dark" to fulfill their gameplay experience. They're not interested in knowing how they got that 4k crit; they're just happy to have it and don't want to question it further. Fine. But why do you have to ruin the game by forcing the rest of us who want to know how you got that 4k crit? I'd love to know how you crit me for 4k given my 11% expertise and 23.44% armor reduction. What's your damage modifier? Did you have a trinket/power adrenal on? What was your base power? With a comprehensive, public log, all of these questions could be answered. Why do people fear data, knowledge? This is absurd.

 

The baseless fear-mongering which fuels the argumentative firepower of the con-combat log crowd is getting really, really old. We get it that you don't want your combat information to be public (for whatever reason and I really mean for whatever reason since nobody has been able to give us a definite answer as to why you don't want combat logs). And that's what makes this argument so frustrating: those who advocate for a public and comprehensive combat log system can rally behind one cause and explain their side of the argument in an accurate, scientific manner while the other side has nothing, and let me repeat, nothing but anecdotal and personal experiences based off past gameplay experiences of other MMOs.

 

Those against combat logs are doing the exact same: you have no experience, nor any valid reason to not want a combat log. You may believe your reasons to not have a combat log are shared with BW but they're not. BW simply doesn't want a combat log because their simplistic game is going to be dissected to such a level that will make the developers uncomfortable.

 

Example: the folks over at SithWarrior have created this comprehensive formula list which is more accurate than the damage/heals provided on the game's ability tooltips. Here is the link http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

Another example (needs to be proficient in calculus): for purposes of theory-crafting, the effect of a given stat on the expected damage of an attack can be calculated using the following formula found here http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Primer-on-calculating-DPS-stat-weights

 

This is what theorycrafting is. And all of this was done without combat log. Now imagine if combat logs were available, this data would be 100% accurate and the spreadsheet which stem from such formulas would be streamlined and essentially complete for all theorycrafters.

 

Anyways, this is my last post to try and convince people why a complete, public, and comprehensive combat log is needed. If people would rather wallow in ignorance while they're playing, be my guest.

 

The most ironic result to come out of the combat log that will be released by BW is that all the people who were so vocal against a public combat log are going to the be the very first ones to use the new builds/specs created by the hardcore theorycrafters who spent a good majority of their time perfecting their builds and itemization while sharing it with the rest of the community.

 

It just doesn't get better than that.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Sireene
Inappropriate Content

[Stupiddrummer]

Recount style combat logs are an excellent tool, but let's not pretend that they won't have at least some detrimental effect on the community.

 

Or let's pretend that they will, because that's what everybody seems to assume is going to happen.

 

SWTOR - Diary

 

April 20th 2012

"I logged onto star wars today. new patch installed. Combat logs..interesting ill take a look"

 

April 21th 2012

"Logged on again. something happened. everything changed. My guildies arent the same. They keep using words like "L2P" and "L2DPS." I flew to the republic fleet, only to find my general chat log FLOODED with dps stats from various Ops. a non stop spam of e-peenery, not seen since the likes of Vanilla WoW, because that happened all the time there cuz it also had combat logs."

 

April 22, 2012

"i can feel it. I too am changing. I used to enjoy the aesthetics of the game. But now. the numbers. i cant stop thinking about them. I hit 2k dps yesterday...might i hit 2.3k today?? 2.5k?? hahah!...But..what if i dont? What will my guildies think of me? Will i get booted? I played for 3 hours straight before i noticed my lightsaber wasnt even equiped. I CANT TAKE MY EYES OFF THE METERS!!"

 

April 24, 2012

"I logged in again today. Ran some low lvl pugs through a flashpoint. Proceeded to straight up BERATE the player who was last on dps. Turned out to be the healer. WHAT HAVE I BECOME! This game is ruined now! Why combat logs why??!!"

Edited March 12, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Phaedrynn]

Given that this example was in Nightmare mode, Dave would be a fellow guildie. I would then key up on Mumble and say "Dave, you need to enable combat logging, it's one of our raid policies". If Dave then says "But I don't wanna!", you're right, /kick Dave, /invite Fred. Guild policy. Even with personal combat logs as are slated for 1.2, I will certainly be adding to our raid policy "Uploading your combat log is mandatory. Failure to do so may result in loss of raid status", and by golly I'll stick by that. Guilds should and do have every right to set policies in place governing their members, and members that dislike them can find another guild, simple as that.

 

Now, in PuGs (though Hard mode pugs are rare, and Nightmare ones are thus far unheard of), seriously, how often do you really expect the RL to even bother with global logging, much less kick someone because of it, when they can't even look at the log until after the raid's over and they've uploaded and parsed it? Sure, if they run regular PuGs, they might do so to see if certain members should be invited back for their next raid, but if they are running regular pug raids rather than just one-off ones, they, just like a guild, should have every right to set policies on their regular members. Don't like their policies? Find a different pug raid. Placing policies like that in place will limit your member more than not having the policies, so not everyone will do it.

 

I really don't see what the issue is here. It would only be available on the difficulty modes that are designed for guilds or regular raid groups, which are the groups that have the most right to have access to information on the performance metrics of their members, and would still be consensual. If the RL doesn't want to bring members that he can't analyze, well that's his prerogative. Particularly in the guild setting, there is zero issue inherent in this.

 

This is what makes this entire debate so laughable. All those who are tilting at the windmills are claiming to be "hardcore" or "competative" raiders and that's why the "need" more than a personal combat log.

 

If they were truly "hardcore" or "competative" raiders, then they are going to be in a guild oriented to that mind set. ANY, truly competative, raid guild will have these policies in place. It wont be an issue.

 

Which leaves the question...why are the fighting this so hard? I have my own suspicions of course, Im just glad Bioware isn't listening to them.