PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Ulmius]

Actually it is both elitest and incorrect. And you know it. It is just convenient for you to distort in order to prosecute your point of view. Your point of view promotes harrrassment in game and you therefore support harrassement in game. That is why people disagree with you no matter how many snarky posts you make in this thread. You cannot intimidate others into believing the way you do. Neither can Starglide.

.

 

If someone does poor dps in your raid group and you try to help them improve upon their dps yet they continue to do poor dps, it is not elitist to kick them from the group. It's improving your group as a whole because you replace that person with someone that can do good damage. That's not elitism, that's looking out for your group and the people that can actually perform their role.

[Andryah]

If someone does poor dps in your raid group and you try to help them improve upon their dps yet they continue to do poor dps, it is not elitist to kick them from the group. It's improving your group as a whole because you replace that person with someone that can do good damage. That's not elitism, that's looking out for your group and the people that can actually perform their role.

 

I agree with you.

 

HOWEVER, please note that you quoted me out of context. Your above comment has nothing to do with what my comment on what was being "elitest" was. Please go back and read it in context to what Taroen was saying (which was about claims about comments/postions in this thread, NOT anything specifically in game).

Edited March 12, 2012 by Andryah

[genesiser]

I want to throw something into the mix here.

 

To the people that are against meters for fear that people will talk about their performance, the only way people will be rude to said player is if that person performs poorly. But luckily for them, there's a solution to putting out poor numbers and it's simple. Just take a little pride in your character and you won't have low numbers.

 

Now is really far fetched to tell someone to take pride in their character? Well considering playing an mmo is basically a hobby, the answer is no. If someone's hobby is collecting cars, they will take pride in it and keep them nice and polished and keep them looking fancy. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make sure each car is displayed the best way he can display it?

 

If someone's hobby is building model airplanes, they take time to follow directions and make sure they get every detail right to make their model look perfect. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make his models the best he can make them?

 

Anyway, it's the same thing with your character. You should have a bit of pride in your character and learn how to play it effectively so you can proudly display your characters ability. In reality, there are pretty much two reasons why your character will ever put out poor numbers. The first one if you have a really bad computer and you only get about 5 frames a second. The second one is if you have a terrible internet connection and have a 1k+ ping.

 

So in the end, just a take a bit of pride in your character and you will always put out at least good numbers. Do that and you'll never have to worry about people talking bad to you because you have a bad performance.

[Starglide]

I want to throw something into the mix here.

 

To the people that are against meters for fear that people will talk about their performance, the only way people will be rude to said player is if that person performs poorly. But luckily for them, there's a solution to putting out poor numbers and it's simple. Just take a little pride in your character and you won't have low numbers.

 

Now is really far fetched to tell someone to take pride in their character? Well considering playing an mmo is basically a hobby, the answer is no. If someone's hobby is collecting cars, they will take pride in it and keep them nice and polished and keep them looking fancy. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make sure each car is displayed the best way he can display it?

 

If someone's hobby is building model airplanes, they take time to follow directions and make sure they get every detail right to make their model look perfect. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make his models the best he can make them?

 

Anyway, it's the same thing with your character. You should have a bit of pride in your character and learn how to play it effectively so you can proudly display your characters ability. In reality, there are pretty much two reasons why your character will ever put out poor numbers. The first one if you have a really bad computer and you only get about 5 frames a second. The second one is if you have a terrible internet connection and have a 1k+ ping.

 

So in the end, just a take a bit of pride in your character and you will always put out at least good numbers. Do that and you'll never have to worry about people talking bad to you because you have a bad performance.

 

What I think is really funny about protesters with that argument is that they are criticizing a play style because they are afraid of their play style being criticized.

 

But I'm rude when I say the argument is ridiculous.

[Starglide]

I want to throw something into the mix here.

 

To the people that are against meters for fear that people will talk about their performance, the only way people will be rude to said player is if that person performs poorly. But luckily for them, there's a solution to putting out poor numbers and it's simple. Just take a little pride in your character and you won't have low numbers.

 

Now is really far fetched to tell someone to take pride in their character? Well considering playing an mmo is basically a hobby, the answer is no. If someone's hobby is collecting cars, they will take pride in it and keep them nice and polished and keep them looking fancy. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make sure each car is displayed the best way he can display it?

 

If someone's hobby is building model airplanes, they take time to follow directions and make sure they get every detail right to make their model look perfect. Is it far fetched that said person takes pride in his hobby and tries to make his models the best he can make them?

 

Anyway, it's the same thing with your character. You should have a bit of pride in your character and learn how to play it effectively so you can proudly display your characters ability. In reality, there are pretty much two reasons why your character will ever put out poor numbers. The first one if you have a really bad computer and you only get about 5 frames a second. The second one is if you have a terrible internet connection and have a 1k+ ping.

 

So in the end, just a take a bit of pride in your character and you will always put out at least good numbers. Do that and you'll never have to worry about people talking bad to you because you have a bad performance.

 

Let me take it a step further and note that the argument has been beaten to death so badly where at this point the people supporting that argument are just defending it because they don't want to look stupid. Which in turn further hurts their argument and further provides reasons as to why they would be kicked from groups. Disagreeing for the sale of doing so. Then they worry about being kicked from groups instead of working on improving performance and LISTENING to a player base they ADMITTED are more experienced. (by labeling us elitist and themselves casual). In turn convincing themselves they know what is better for the game by demanding a tool proven useful be excluded.

 

Sorry, it's hard not to roll your eyes.

[genesiser]

Sorry, it's hard not to roll your eyes.

 

I agree.

[Arnathis]

No.

 

No, we don't need that special brand, of social poison, here.

 

NO ONE uses those meters in a good way, no one, what ever purpose they use to have, what ever measure they use to provide, that's irrelevant t in the face of how they are used now.

 

They are not used as tools, they are not used to teach, they are not used to improve any players game.

 

They are used to judge, divide, diminish the game to raw numbers, and reduce it's players to rotation obsessed robots.

 

The personal logs, is all anyone should need. Bioware did the right thing, and finally did what no other MMO company has had the guts to do. They ought to be commended.

 

We do not need meters, we'll do just fine without them.

 

I've used logs to better my play and analyze my rotation to see where I could make improvements. As a result I rank top 30 in the world on most WoW heroic fights for my class. They ARE used as tools.

 

I've never used them as a reference to tell someone they're bad.

 

I've never belittled someone for sucking on the meter because I know that the meter isn't everything and ultimately the success of the group is what matters. In fact, when I pug a 5-man I'm usually the guy voting "No" when the rest of the group tries to kick someone. If I feel we can complete the run in a reasonable amount of time I have no problem with someone being a little low on the meter.

 

On progression fights my guild in WoW, which is top 50 US 25 man (I say that so you realize that we're probably elitests by your standards), could care less where someones overall damage is. Most often we use it to look at specific target damage to see if people are switching to the correct targets quickly enough. We're all good people and I've never seen one of us belittle anyone outside the guild. We sometimes get on eachothers case if one of us is having an off night but that's the extent of it. Usually the real uppity "elitests" come to our guild thinking they're gods gift and eventually leave because they can't hang or because we make them feel unwelcome. We try to keep a really friendly, casual but serious when necessary atmosphere and anyone that disrupts that atmosphere by being a jerk usually weeds themselves out.

 

The only time I've used a meter as a measuring stick is when the group isn't meeting an enrage timer consistently, an add isn't dying fast enough or a particular segment of the fight is consistently not getting healed through. But again, that's amongst my guildmates and we're all aware of the fact that meters will be used as a tool to help us progress.

 

Ultimately it comes down to the individual player. There are d-bags everywhere and they will be d-bags regardless of whether or not there's meters. They're the people that taunt lesser geared/skilled people in warzones over general chat or criticize someone in a flashpoint for doing something wrong on a mechanic. You know who they are, they're already here, meters won't bring more of them.

 

If the personal log works in a group setting when you want it to then I'm perfectly fine with that. If it's something where the members of the group have to enable it in order for other people to see it then that works for me. I can run with people that want to use it and have nothing to hide. Ideally they should just make it so that only guild groups have it shown and even then it can be toggled on/off and that would suffice. For those people that don't want them or don't care what they say then you can just find a guild that thinks like you do. For the other group that wants them you find players to run with that suit your playstyle.

 

The group that wants them seems to want them because:

 

A) They enjoy being able to break everything down and max their numbers (there IS a certain gratification that comes with seeing the numbers go up after making some adjustments)

 

OR

 

B) They want tougher more complex nightmare modes and without logs available to players BW can't really make fights that are very tightly tuned. (I myself am in this camp)

 

Neither of these reasons are inherently negative, if anything they're positive mindsets. Player "A" enjoys bettering himself and learning the ins and outs of his class and Player "B" wants more of a challenge from this game because let's face it, nightmare mode has nothing nightmarish about it.

 

The problem is that the game encompasses a wide spectrum of personalities and age groups. Unfortunately some of the younger or just immature for their age players will look for any excuse to start an argument especially behind the veil of anonymity a game like this provides. However, I think it's unfair to blame the meter for their behavior and relieve them of all responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, despite them being the numerical minority they can have a large impact on other players game experience since there's nothing to stop them from harassing a player in group or general chat non stop.

 

With meters implemented WoW was able to reach their peak subscriber numbers and the community there didn't go to crap like some people on here claim it did. The player base is somewhat divided into sections though, with players of similar skill level and interests usually grouping with each other. I really don't think this is avoidable though, with or without meters and I don't even look at it as a negative. The lesser skilled players are happy going on their merry way and playing with other like minded players and the hardcore players eventually find the right guild for them and are free to beat their heads against the heroic mode bosses. The key is that there needs to be enough content for both to enjoy. Right now in TOR, there seems to be enough content for the casuals to enjoy but not enough for the players looking for a real challenge out of operations.

[ocping]

I'm elitist for not wanting noobs in my group? Sorry, I'm not elitist, I'm a decentist.

[terminova]

Let me take it a step further and note that the argument has been beaten to death so badly where at this point the people supporting that argument are just defending it because they don't want to look stupid. Which in turn further hurts their argument and further provides reasons as to why they would be kicked from groups. Disagreeing for the sale of doing so. Then they worry about being kicked from groups instead of working on improving performance and LISTENING to a player base they ADMITTED are more experienced. (by labeling us elitist and themselves casual). In turn convincing themselves they know what is better for the game by demanding a tool proven useful be excluded.

 

Sorry, it's hard not to roll your eyes.

 

They are giving you parseable combat logs you can go over to your hearts content outside of the game. They are giving you personal DPS and threat meters. Do you even understand what they are doing?

[Buddhalux]

Just this weekend I had to call off 3 HM FPs because our DPS was crap and we were hitting enrage timers. Now If I had a combat log I could of seen what was going on and try to fix it. Since I don't then I just told the group, thanks for trying. I'm tired of wasting my time and credits on repairs and left. Now I know that the DPS problem wasn't me. I'm in full columi gear and my rotation is solid. Most tanks can't hold agro on mobs without some effort after I finish my 1st rotation.

[Starglide]

They are giving you parseable combat logs you can go over to your hearts content outside of the game. They are giving you personal DPS and threat meters. Do you even understand what they are doing?

 

Yes... Read the OP. And how does what I stated imply I do not know what they are giving us? It is about people protesting afraid of griefers.

 

Also, don't assume things. They never stated they are givi us personal DPS or threat meters. Also, of you understood the purpose of threat meters, you would understand that personally threat meters makes no sense as the point of threat meters is to gauge where you are in threat compared to the rest of the group.

 

Don't even try replying defending your statement. Do more research or play more before debating a topic in which you lack the knowledge regarding the BASIC fundamentals.

 

It's like you're arguing baseball when you don't even know what a ground ball is.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Starglide

[krinaman]

Just this weekend I had to call off 3 HM FPs because our DPS was crap and we were hitting enrage timers. Now If I had a combat log I could of seen what was going on and try to fix it. Since I don't then I just told the group, thanks for trying. I'm tired of wasting my time and credits on repairs and left. Now I know that the DPS problem wasn't me. I'm in full columi gear and my rotation is solid. Most tanks can't hold agro on mobs without some effort after I finish my 1st rotation.

 

So apparently you know your DPS is solid, and you have a tank, and a healer, and one other DPS. You seriously need a meter to tell you who the problem is? Really?

[Starglide]

So apparently you know your DPS is solid, and you have a tank, and a healer, and one other DPS. You seriously need a meter to tell you who the problem is? Really?

 

Yes, because without a combat log, no matter how good your assumptions are... They are still that, assumptions. Without raw data nothing is factual.

[Buddhalux]

So apparently you know your DPS is solid, and you have a tank, and a healer, and one other DPS. You seriously need a meter to tell you who the problem is? Really?

 

Nope, but without a log we can't put a number to it to make it easy. I also can't see what their rotation is either. I might think that the other merc was spamming TM but without a log that's just a guess. The tool is about educating yourself, not guesstimating....

[Daellia]

So apparently you know your DPS is solid, and you have a tank, and a healer, and one other DPS. You seriously need a meter to tell you who the problem is? Really?

 

How about when I have 9 other dpsers (and 2 tanks and 4 healers), and I'm trying to figure out why the boss keeps enraging? How 'bout when I have a target that must be interrupted but sometimes they are slipping through and I need to know who's missing the cast bars?

 

As the raid leader of a NiM raiding guild, having that sort of information is invaluable when faced with a tough fight. No, it's not about identifying who to kick, that would be a waste of time and effort (now we have to recruit and gear up a replacement, train them on our strats, etc). It's about finding who I need to work with to improve their play so the entire raid team can succeed.

 

Sure, logs are used for other less savory reasons, but they also have enormous benefit if used correctly. This is exactly the reason I advocate making group-wide combat log dumps available to raid leaders in NiM and HM operations, as that's generally where they are put to their best use, and elsewhere is generally where they are put to their worst.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Daellia

[terminova]

Yes... Read the OP. And how does what I stated imply I do not know what they are giving us? It is about people protesting afraid of griefers.

 

Also, don't assume things. They never stated they are giving us personal DPS or threat meters.

 

It was highly implied any meters given were going to be personal. Even in WoW the default UI only gave threat relative to the tank because that's all that actually matters.

 

Also, of you understood the purpose of threat meters, you would understand that personally threat meters makes no sense as the point of threat meters is to gauge where you are in threat compared to the rest of the group.

 

That part had me in stitches.

 

Each mob has a threat table (well, most do) that the game uses to keep track of who the mob is going to attack. The person who is at the top of the list is the most important and should be the tank. What matters isn't you knowing what the other non-tank's threat is, but what your threat is in relation to the tanks. Anything but a personal threat meter specific to each mob in combat with the group is pointless as only relative threat to the tank is what actually matters and comes down to how close are you to pulling threat from the tank.

 

Seeing the list itself doesn't matter as you only need to know your relative threat value to the tank.

 

Don't even try replying defending your statement. Do more research or play more before debating a topic in which you lack the knowledge regarding the BASIC fundamentals.

 

Really? Are you that scared someone will show you up? Laughable.

[krinaman]

How about when I have 9 other dpsers (and 2 tanks and 4 healers), and I'm trying to figure out why the boss keeps enraging? How 'bout when I have a target that must be interrupted but sometimes they are slipping through and I need to know who's missing the cast bars?

 

You figure that out by running stuff with people. If you run with everybody in your guild it isn't hard to figure out who the better DPSers are.

 

Honestly, people have figured it out for years in games without meters and logs. Not to mention people in this game have downed the operations without them as well.

 

Do meters make it easier? Absolutely. But at the cost of players tunnel visioning on DPS.

 

So yeah, I agree your solution isn't bad but since I run HM ops (including pugs) I will have to deal with even with that solution.

[Daellia]

You figure that out by running stuff with people. If you run with everybody in your guild it isn't hard to figure out who the better DPSers are.

 

Honestly, people have figured it out for years in games without meters and logs. Not to mention people in this game have downed the operations without them as well.

 

Do meters make it easier? Absolutely. But at the cost of players tunnel visioning on DPS.

 

So yeah, I agree your solution isn't bad but since I run HM ops (including pugs) I will have to deal with even with that solution.

 

I was actually referring more to combat logs than meters. Meters make people tunnel-vision. Combat logs really don't, as you can only epeen-stroke after the fact (lack of instant gratification, which is often important to those that are seeking that justification). I just want to be able to analyze my raid's performance between raid nights to figure out who needs to improve at what, how to squeeze out every bit of performance we can.

 

And my proposal would require consent (via in-game prompt or a right-click menu option) to allow the raid leader to log everyone's stuff. Guild can make it required, PuGs could if they really wanted to, but I doubt it would be common (since you can't really analyze the information until after the raid, at which point it doesn't really matter anymore, at least for a PuG group).

 

And yes, I know I can technically do that with the currently slated system, but as a raid leader, guild leader, and coder for sithwarrior.com, I don't relish the thought of having to hound everyone every raid night to upload their logs, and having to figure out a good way of designing an upload and parsing system to handle both multiple uploads for the same fight (with no direct identifiers of it being the same fight) and raids in which only part of the raid uploaded. Ugh.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Daellia

[crimsonsglory]

The mentality and arguements of those anti combat logs (NOT recount) are pretty disturbing and nonsensical to say the least. Imho

[crimsonsglory]

Most of the people who won't vote in a poll/go on the forums are casuals... who given the choice wouldn't want an epeen/hardcore tool especially one that they have no control over.

 

The other thing is, most of the people arguing FOR a combat log to make themselves better are getting exactly that with the self combat logs.

 

The only group that really needs this are the bads who must judge themselves by numbers and comparison to feel better- and the serious hardcore ops players, which are a significantly tiny minority and obviously wouldn't make a big dent in a poll.

 

The second has a work around anyway by telling their players to post their results.

 

For me personally, im not worried about my performance, im more worried about the people i group with. I believe many pro meters posters feels the same to a certain degree.

 

If you are good or even decent, you got nothing to hide. Oh i heard WAY too many: its not me, i know im good, but my friend was harass and pinpoint in groups bla bla bla.. Its always a friend eh ?

 

"oh but its a game, its about having fun" - maybe its fun for you to wipe all night not knowing what went wrong. But for me and many others, its about challenging, about identifying what went wrong. Believe me you are better off with solid facts on hand then having everyone wonder what happen and accussations start flying(not saying it will surely happen)

 

Just because you dont support our playstyle you wish to have these useful tools taken from the hands of people who wants them.

 

 

Ps: dont tell me personal combat logs are on the way. When im in a GROUP with YOU, what you do becomes my business and vice versa.

Edited March 12, 2012 by crimsonsglory

[Galius]

There is nothing full on combat logs will help with that the personal ones aren't already going to be able to do for "hardcore" raiders.

 

And that realistically are the only people that even need logs.

 

So if the current proposed combat logs will do the job needed there is absolutely no reason to expand that functionality as it can then be used for purposes not beneficial to the game.

[Freor]

I'm all for full combat logs. They already list damage/protection/kills/healing etc in warzones, I see no reason these shouldn't be listed in PvE too. If your toon is in appropriate gear and you are using your tools as you should, you have nothing to hide. For example in HM flashpoints/OPs, it's not fair for the others working their ***** off to get constantly wiped if there's people lacking and not doing their part.

 

Limit it to operations / hard more FPs if you want, those are where the logs would be most helpful. These encounters are *build* to require certain degree of gear/use of tools, there should be a way to log that.

[ConradLionhart]

Too much infighting in this thread.

 

Personally, I feel that combat logs are needed, ONCE we have hard content. Since the consensus is that operations are currently easy, there is no need for combat logs yet.

 

At the start of Cataclysm expansion for World of Warcraft, Argaloth, the first boss in Baradin's Hold, must has 6 dps that can do at least 10k dps in order to beat his 5 min enrage timer in 10-man mode. Any less, and no matter how well people stand out of fire, you will never take him down. This is why you need dps meters, you need to measure your dps. There is a minimum dps requirement.

 

This refutes the argument of the anti-combat-logs camp that they rather have people who pay attention than people who aim for high dps. They are not mutually exclusive. You have to pay attention AND do high dps to beat Argaloth.

 

But seeing as we don't have hard content yet, we do not need to min-max our combat logs for now. The game is relatively new. Just enjoy your game.

 

My own theory is that the anti-combat-logs camp are afraid that their incompetence would be revealed by dps meters. That is why they are very defensive about it, constantly bringing up poor excuses. They are not good enough to do hard content, yet they still want to do it, expecting other people to carry them. And they don't want combat logs because it will expose them. I do not respect this kind of self-entitlement that wants reward at the expense of others.

 

There is actually a VERY good reason not to put in combat logs and dps meters, a legitimate reason that even pro-combat-logs people will agree with. But I have not seen the anti-combat-logs people list it. Or they did list it but I missed it. However, so far based on the posts I've read, I have not seen this reason.

 

So combat logs will only be needed if there is ever hard content that requires gear check or minimum dps.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[Squatdog_nz]

For me personally, im not worried about my performance, im more worried about the people i group with. I believe many pro meters posters feels the same to a certain degree.

 

If you are good or even decent, you got nothing to hide. Oh i heard WAY too many: its not me, i know im good, but my friend was harass and pinpoint in groups bla bla bla.. Its always a friend eh ?

 

"oh but its a game, its about having fun" - maybe its fun for you to wipe all night not knowing what went wrong. But for me and many others, its about challenging, about identifying what went wrong. Believe me you are better off with solid facts on hand then having everyone wonder what happen and accussations start flying(not saying it will surely happen)

 

Just because you dont support our playstyle you wish to have these useful tools taken from the hands of people who wants them.

 

 

Ps: dont tell me personal combat logs are on the way. When im in a GROUP with YOU, what you do becomes my business and vice versa.

 

Exactly.

 

Bad players are bitterly opposed to Damage-meters because they want to be able to leech of other people without having to contribute in the process.

 

For everyone else, it's a valuable tool

[Rumblegut]

I vote no