PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Englefield]

WoW has clearly influenced your idea of what an MMO should be and as a result you haven't come to SWTOR with an open mind. Again, that's not a dig at you but it is an issue I see with so many people here.

 

A game can be successful without the implementation of every single feature from WoW and what's good/bag or right/wrong is not set in stone, it's just a matter of opinions. If everything about WoW was great we wouldn't be here now.

 

We need to let tor create it's own identity.

[Nagadeath]

i really wish the old dev quote about the target audience of this game had not been lost to me in to forum wipe.

 

maybe one of the other old timers has it saved somewhere.

 

the quote about this game being targeted at the bioware fans, the star wars fans, and the general MMO fans. so to reach that audience they had to ignore other types of gamers specifically the hardcore min maxers or as the dev in the interview called them the " hardcore crazies".

 

if anyone has that interview saved somewhere i really think this is the thread it was destined for.

[ProxyKalevra]

i'm under the impression that full addon support is in development and has been for while now... frankly that is the only thing that keeps me for making post after post complaining to bioware about their ui and lack of features...

 

also about dps meters... they are a tool that a player can use to analyze their stats etc in real time allowing for instantaneous feedback on rotations etc...

 

just because bad players tend to use them to stroke their epeens is no reason to bash the system because even without the system bad players stroke their epeens and tell everyone how great they are using some other contrived subjective method.

[Starglide]

WoW has clearly influenced your idea of what an MMO should be and as a result you haven't come to SWTOR with an open mind. Again, that's not a dig at you but it is an issue I see with so many people here.

 

A game can be successful without the implementation of every single feature from WoW and what's good/bag or right/wrong is not set in stone, it's just a matter of opinions. If everything about WoW was great we wouldn't be here now.

 

We need to let tor create it's own identity.

 

I agree but it's not going to avoid that by excluding/including a barber shop

[Chinaexpress]

How come no reply from Bioware about this matter?

[crimsonsglory]

Tools don't kill communities, players do.

 

Players that use Recount to stir the pot are just going to use something else if Recount isn't available.

 

If you don't have access to a damage meter, you have no idea how good, or bad, you're performing. All you have at that point is your gut. Heck, without meters, you have no clue which specs are viable DPS specs or not. That gets real fun when you hit an enrage timer and have no clue who the weak link is -- or even whether it's an issue with the spec or the player.

 

 

Maybe you don't raid and don't have to worry about this, but meters are one of the most important tools a raid leader has access to. Nobody enjoys wiping 40 times in a night without progress, and if you can't access the tools necessary to identify what the problem is, that's exactly where you'll be.

 

 

Did the tank die because he didn't get heals, or did he die because he didn't get away from a one-shot mechanic? Who's dropping the ball on dispels? Was a healer afk for the fight?

 

 

Meters are more than just DPS numbers. They track everything. They can tell you in an instant what went wrong. If your ego can't handle someone linking a meter, perhaps you need to spend some time developing a thicker skin rather than argue that tools should be taken from the hands of people who need them.

 

I understand the concerns of many anti-recount posters and their valid arguements.Sometimes in a fight, where i have to use my interupts, throwing a shield or off healing to prevent death of a team-mate, And whenever we seem to do some of these non dps enhancing talents, is when some idiot spams recount and tries to tell us how noobish and suckish we are when he just stood there and never stopped doing his maximum dps rotation.

 

Recount is a good thing. But like most goodthings, it can be used badly.

 

I vote yes.

Edited March 10, 2012 by crimsonsglory

[Squatdog_nz]

It honestly amazes me that such an important game feature is essentially being held hostage by a vocal minority of Bad Players who are motivated entirely by petty selfishness.

 

 

 

 

 

I did my first 'operation' today as a PVP-specced Operative. Did I put out good DPS and help my group beat the enrage timer? I DON'T KNOW.

 

Is my damage output significantly better now that I've respecced to PVE Lethality? I DON'T KNOW.

 

What kept hitting me for 4k+ crits in the last Huttball match? Was it the Sniper or one of the five Tracer-spamming BH's? I DON'T KNOW.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Nemmar]

Out of game logs are fine, but in-combat ones are a big NO.

 

In game can have the training room where you can hit a dummy and see your numbers in a console. Thats it.

 

Lets not turn this game into WoW trash v 2.0.

 

There are clear disavantages to having in game meters and coming here like spoiled kids trying to pretend that the issues arent there doesnt really help this game at all.

Sugest implementations that will solve the issues. We dont want this game to repeat the same mistakes WoW did just cause you're too lazy and impatiant for the debate.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Nemmar

[Squatdog_nz]

Out of game logs are fine, but in-combat ones are a big NO.

 

In game can have the training room where you can hit a dummy and see your numbers in a console. Thats it.

 

Lets not turn this game into WoW trash v 2.0.

 

There are clear disavantages to having in game meters and coming here like spoiled kids trying to pretend that the issues arent there doesnt really help this game at all.

Sugest implementations that will solve the issues. We dont want this game to repeat the same mistakes WoW did just cause you're too lazy and impatiant for the debate.

 

The supreme irony here is that Blizzard's biggest mistake was letting itself get browbeaten by a tiny, vocal minority of Bad Players until most of the content was nerfed to the point it could be farmed by a colony of Rhesus Monkeys.

 

They tried to make a fresh start with the last expansion (after the debacle of WotLK) by having stair-stepped, challenging content, but the Bad Players squealed and cried until Blizzard caved in and gave them what they wanted. Namely, free epics.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Squatdog_nz

[Daellia]

Now, I want you to read my lips:

 

YOU DO NOT NEED A COMPREHENSIVE COMBAT LOG. IF EVERY MEMBER OF A GROUP OR GUILD SUBMITS THEIR PERSONAL COMBAT LOGS AND THEN CORRELATES THEM WITH A PROGRAM DESIGNED TO DO SUCH THINGS THEN YOU GET THE SAME INFORMATION THAT YOU WOULD WITH A COMPREHENSIVE COMBAT LOG. THE ONLY CAVEAT IS THAT THOSE WHO CHOOSE NOT TO SHARE THEIR COMBAT STATISTICS CANNOT BE FORCED TO DO SO NOR CAN THEIR COMBAT STATISTICS BE RECORDED WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

 

See, this is the issue. I'm a raid leader, of a NiM progression guild. I need to know who isn't performing. Also being an avid theorycrafter (and altoholic), I enjoy going over the logs and finding areas others in my raid may be falling short in and working with them to boost their performance. My guild actually expects me to do this to a degree, I've been doing it so long, and they regularly look to me for guidance on how to handle aspects of their play.

 

So now, we have self-only combat logs. This adds administrative overhead for me, as I have to remind everyone at the start of the raid to start logging, and after the raid to upload their logs to my repository for parsing, then hound those that forget to do so, before I can even get to the point of actually analyzing the logs. Beyond that, since these are stored to each raider's computer before upload, they can be corrupted by less honest members of raids (though I don't believe I have anyone with both the will and the know-how to do so in my guild). Basically, what it's going to come down to is that I'm going to add a requirement to my raiding roster that all members must log and upload every raid, and if they fail to do so repeatedly, they get punted off the raid roster. Sorta a silly reason for that to happen.

 

Now, what would be an acceptable compromise is to allow the leader of operations groups to enter an "all-operation" logging mode, which would dump the logs of everyone in the group into a single file on the operation leader's system. Enabling this would prompt all members of the group to allow or deny it (or there could be an option in your right-click menu to allow or deny 3rd-party logging dumps), and the raid leader would be provided with who did and did not allow it right then. Allowing it would be bound to the zone, and the option would reset on leaving party or an instance soft-reset.

 

This would allow those in PuGs that do not want their performance evaluated (even after the fact) to prevent such, but would allow operation leaders to have full access to the logs of those that allow it (and could then by made a raiding requirement by more hardcore guilds). The raid leader immediately knows who isn't willing to allow the logging, and can address it immediately rather than having to chase down and hound guild members that haven't uploaded. This also removes the potential for intentionally corrupting combat log data. To make it even more restricted to only hardcore guilds, you could make this option only available in raids on hard and nightmare modes, the ones actually used for progression raiding. This would free people from prompts in flashpoints and normal-mode pugs, and from having "must enable logging" be a requirement for even normal-mode pug raids.

 

This would be the best possible solution, from a raid leader perspective.

 

From a theorycrafting perspective, what I really need is a live combat log in-game. It doesn't have to be multi-person, as any information I need from a testing partner I can have them relay themselves on the fly. This would allow direct testing of certain mechanics without requiring a combat -> dump logs -> analyze -> repeat system.

 

Basically, my desire is a toggle in hard and nightmare modes to allow the raid leader to dump combat logs for everyone onto his system, with their consent (though he can see who has and has not given consent in-game when logging is enabled), and a live self-only combat log in-game. This would satisfy both raid leaders and theorycrafters, while still allowing those that fear judgement based on their performance to avoid being directly analyzed without their consent.

 

It does give raid leaders for progression raids the ability to specifically filter out those that don't want to be analyzed, but hardmode is rarely if ever pugged, and frankly raid leader in progression modes should have the ability to filter out those that either aren't performing sufficiently, or fear being analyzed and found to be performing insufficiently. The progression modes are generally intended for guild raids, and allowing guilds to set the rules on who they allow into their raids is unbreachable.

 

As far as I can predict, the only ones that should be against this particular proposal would be those that want to go into the harder progression difficulties even though they aren't performing at the level necessary to succeed in them. Basically, those that want to be carried by their group members, that want to leech success off them. Should we really be catering to those type of people, making it impossible to detect them?

[Matte_Black]

How come no reply from Bioware about this matter?

 

What?!

 

They just said THIS WEEK, what they will be putting in the game and the type of combat log functionality they did not want to add? Just because some guy who can't accept that news starts a thread does not mean BioWare needs to comment in it. That goes double when the preponderence of posters and the OPs own poll support their decision.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Neoforcer]

It honestly amazes me that such an important game feature is essentially being held hostage by a vocal minority of Bad Players who are motivated entirely by petty selfishness.

 

.

 

Did u even read the results on the poll the OP posted the vocal minority of players would be those that cant do without wow type combat log. That means your in the vocal minority... So your not being held hostage by any one since the poll show 75% of ppl don't want what you want.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Neoforcer

[Matte_Black]

Can we please get a developer response on this issue. And thanks for dropping by.

 

See guild summit comments.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

Well the community appears to have spoken, according to the Poll and it is clear that the MAJORITY do not want stupid combat logs.

 

/thread

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

How come no reply from Bioware about this matter?

 

Becasue the community has spoken and shown that this is not something we want.

[KrelosDarksky]

I think the poll results speak VOLUMES more than I could type in this thread.

[Daellia]

This poll demonstrates a massive Dark Ages mentality. People would rather remain ignorant than risk being wrong.

[KrelosDarksky]

This poll demonstrates a massive Dark Ages mentality. People would rather remain ignorant than risk being wrong.

 

No .. the poll demonstrates that a MINORITY wants something that isn't wanted by the MAJORITY.

 

This is neither wanted my the MAJORITY nor is it NEEDED by any or everyone that plays.

 

It is something wanted by a minor handful of players who either depend on it because they are too inept to figure out what weapon is better in combat or because they depend on it to gate lower players.

[Tygranir]

No.

 

Check your epeen at the door please.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Tygranir

[Taroen]

No .. the poll demonstrates that a MINORITY wants something that isn't wanted by the MAJORITY.

 

This is neither wanted my the MAJORITY nor is it NEEDED by any or everyone that plays.

 

It is something wanted by a minor handful of players who either depend on it because they are too inept to figure out what weapon is better in combat or because they depend on it to gate lower players.

 

Actually, if you had been paying attention to the thread, you would know that there were several complaints about the poll not working at all for some people. I never voted in it. The poll also doesn't prevent those that did vote from voting more than once.

 

And if you think that people who did take that poll are representative of the community as a whole, I don't know what to tell you...

 

Also, there has never been a more idiotic debating point than "more people agree with me, so I must be right." At one point, the majority of people thought the Earth was flat. They also thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Such a point lacks critical thinking skills.

[Tygranir]

Actually, if you had been paying attention to the thread, you would know that there were several complaints about the poll not working at all for some people. I never voted in it. The poll also doesn't prevent those that did vote from voting more than once.

 

And if you think that people who did take that poll are representative of the community as a whole, I don't know what to tell you...

 

Also, there has never been a more idiotic debating point than "more people agree with me, so I must be right." At one point, the majority of people thought the Earth was flat. They also thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Such a point lacks critical thinking skills.

 

The purpose of the poll was to see how many people wanted which option. It does not go beyond that. Just because it doesn't reflect your opinion doesn't mean it is wrong. The community is happy with the upcoming combat log as it is.

[Taroen]

The purpose of the poll was to see how many people wanted which option. It does not go beyond that. Just because it doesn't reflect your opinion doesn't mean it is wrong. The community is happy with the upcoming combat log as it is.

 

Whether it's wrong or right has nothing to do with whether that poll is representative of the community. Trying to use it to claim that the community is happy with something we don't even have yet, and only have a vague description of, is being purposely misleading.

[Daellia]

The purpose of the poll was to see how many people wanted which option. It does not go beyond that. Just because it doesn't reflect your opinion doesn't mean it is wrong. The community is happy with the upcoming combat log as it is.

 

Said poll has all of 200 votes (WAY below critical mass for even a glimmer of statistical reliability), and won't let me vote in it either. I'd say using it as the major justification of your standpoint weakens your stance rather than strengthens it.

 

And the point isn't whether a combat log is needed by everyone. The results of work with the combat log benefit most players of the game, even if it's just from trickle-down information from us theorycrafters. Beyond that, I posted a perfectly viable compromise a page or so back. Allow raid leaders, in hard and nightmare modes only, with the consent of their fellow party members, to enable a mode that records all group member's logs rather than just their person logs. Flashpoints and pug raids still don't have any issues, and progression raid leaders gain the ability the analyze their raid's performance (as they should have, if it's going to be true progression raiding). Give us a life filterable self-only combat log in the client as well, and you've made everyone happy. Theorycrafter, raid leaders, and casuals all get what they want.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Daellia

[Matte_Black]

Whether it's wrong or right has nothing to do with whether that poll is representative of the community. Trying to use it to claim that the community is happy with something we don't even have yet, and only have a vague description of, is being purposely misleading.

 

This is a gameplay preference issue, there is not a wrong or right. The majority of the players seem to want to play more by the seat of the pants than worrying about playing "the right way". I think I understand why you are having difficulty with this issue now.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Daellia]

This is a gameplay preference issue, there is not a wrong or right. The majority of the players seem to want to play more by the seat of the pants than worrying about playing "the right way". I think I understand why you are having difficulty with this issue now.

 

The majority of a buggy poll with only 200 votes, in a community made up of a bit over a million subscribers, is hardly compelling evidence that the "majority" are against traditional combat logs.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Daellia