PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Vydor_HC]

Well, there was a vote, fair enough. There is still probably going to be a personal combat log, which this will completely enable people to min-max and perfect their specs, and likely create larger imbalances with those who do not. The mathematicians are still going to play their game, and thanks to the personal log, they will improve the most and very likely will become even more rude to others because they can see their numbers but they can't see yours. Let the false claims and false accusations fly! The personal combat log will probably cause just as much animosity between players as the full combat log will and maybe more. They will both cause problems, to be sure, but with the personal combat log, their is no proof from one player to the other so negative remarks will now be much more wildly aimed.

 

There is. Personal combat logs are on the way.

[Seregul]

Terminova is actually correct in his/her assessment sir.

 

Could you please enlighten us as to why you think he/she is wrong?

 

Guess not. It was based on experience tooling up on target dummies some time ago. Nothing concrete. Comment withdrawn and I apologize.

[Mirayla]

99% of the people wanting dps meters and public combat logs admit it is so they know who to kick. For some reason they see no problem with that. And those are the people I do NOT want to group with. Not only does it suck the fun out but destroys communities.

 

My vote is NO.

[valgar]

99% of the people wanting dps meters and public combat logs admit it is so they know who to kick. For some reason they see no problem with that. And those are the people I do NOT want to group with. Not only does it suck the fun out but destroys communities.

 

My vote is NO.

 

Exactly.

As i said earlier. Logs for GUILD ONLY raids are fine so guilds can help there members.

[Qrazyy]

So I'm curious.

 

All the people that voted no, if you only ran FPs/OPs with guildies, would you still vote no?

[Dayln]

of course I would vote no, why would I want to make good players worse?

 

as I said before, I have been in many group wipes where there is one moron bragging about the DPS he was doing according to a meter or recount or what have you, when if he had been doing what he should have been doing besides just DPS, we would not have wiped.

[Blotter]

So I'm curious.

 

All the people that voted no, if you only ran FPs/OPs with guildies, would you still vote no?

 

My guild is good enough that we don't need crutches

[Pekish]

yes i would still vote NO even if i run only with my guildy

 

it's a game not a job i have to enjoy not being told what to do and how to do it

 

The real challenge it's get to the end in a way that everybody enjoy it

not just get to the end that's what a computer would do calculate the faster and most effective way to get to the end but he doesnt have fun he just do what he is being told to do

 

I expect more form a game and honestly I would expect more from people but hey it's harder to win making everybody enjoy the run rather so i guess MMO are jobs not games

 

one thing is giving direction correcting friends mistake explain certain ability the other thing is give him a spreadsheet tell him to learn to play and kick him from the group

 

dear lord people really have no clue how to play videogame anymore

Edited March 9, 2012 by Pekish

[Starglide]

/facepalm

 

All you people replying without reading OP need to know one simple thing...

 

COMBAT LOGS =/= DPS METERS.

 

ALSO, BIOWARE HAS CONFIRMED THAT THEY WILL BE IMPLEMENTING DAMAGE METERS AND THREAT METERS TO GAUGE PERFORMANCE. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DAMAGE METERS?

 

This really proves that most people voting against combat logs do not even understand them..

Edited March 9, 2012 by Starglide

[JohnScott]

No combat logs!

 

It takes the fun out of raiding for those of us who play games for fun.

[DaxRendar]

ALSO, BIOWARE HAS CONFIRMED THAT THEY WILL BE IMPLEMENTING DAMAGE METERS AND THREAT METERS TO GAUGE PERFORMANCE. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DAMAGE METERS?

 

ORLY?

 

I'd like to see your source for that.

 

If it was the Guild Summit, they specifically said they do NOT want Threat or Group Damage Meters. They did say that they want to do a better job of providing tools like Target of Target and clearer Visual Cues to help people manage Threat or analyze their OWN performance.

 

Basically, they've said long-term they'd like to see an in-game tool to supplement the PERSONAL COMBAT LOG, and that's it.

[lollermittens]

"Worry about what you're doing, not about what others are doing."

 

That's the mantra of the con-combat log crowd and here's my response taking into account a different perspective/scenario:

 

This advice works great...for regular players. As a raid leader, trying to down a fight in which you keep hitting the enrage timer, without any way to determine who isn't pulling their weight and needs coaching, is a nightmare. Literally all I can do is tell everyone "ok, let's do it again, bump up your dps!" and wipe yet again. Those sort of analytical tools are invaluable for leaders of more hardcore raiding guilds, without them you can't even come close to optimizing your guild. At that point, you just have to trust that everyone is giving it their all and doesn't need improving, or assume everyone needs more coaching (pissing off the people that actually don't). Seriously, how effective do you think it would be for a business if that business had no way of gauging the performance of their employees? How about if a sports team had no way to determine which players were better than others in certain positions? You need that type of data to have a system that can be optimized.

 

Now perhaps you're just one of those players that don't think that optimization needs to happen. Fine. Just don't ruin my game (and seriously, preventing hardcore raiding guilds from having any feedback on their raids is doing precisely that for them) just because you have a beef with the pompous idiots setting ridiculous requirements for PuG raids.

[Derekloffin]

That's the mantra of the con-combat log crowd and here's my response taking into account a different perspective/scenario:

 

This advice works great...for regular players. As a raid leader, trying to down a fight in which you keep hitting the enrage timer, without any way to determine who isn't pulling their weight and needs coaching, is a nightmare. Literally all I can do is tell everyone "ok, let's do it again, bump up your dps!" and wipe yet again. Those sort of analytical tools are invaluable for leaders of more hardcore raiding guilds, without them you can't even come close to optimizing your guild. At that point, you just have to trust that everyone is giving it their all and doesn't need improving, or assume everyone needs more coaching (pissing off the people that actually don't). Seriously, how effective do you think it would be for a business if that business had no way of gauging the performance of their employees? How about if a sports team had no way to determine which players were better than others in certain positions? You need that type of data to have a system that can be optimized.

 

Now perhaps you're just one of those players that don't think that optimization needs to happen. Fine. Just don't ruin my game (and seriously, preventing hardcore raiding guilds from having any feedback on their raids is doing precisely that for them) just because you have a beef with the pompous idiots setting ridiculous requirements for PuG raids.

 

Thing is, you can have that. It isn't convenient, but you can still get it. You just request everybody's logs and throw them into the inevitable log parsing program which will spit out the result. And really, in the end, this game hasn't even shown the remotest need of such precision yet. So, not only is the tool available, it isn't even necessary.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know the inevitable response, 'why go half way', and I'll answer because half way makes it much harder for the idiots to abuse while the hardcore, if they're truly hard core, won't even blink about it.

[DaxRendar]

...As a raid leader, trying to down a fight in which you keep hitting the enrage timer, without any way to determine who isn't pulling their weight and needs coaching, is a nightmare. Literally all I can do is tell everyone "ok, let's do it again, bump up your dps!" and wipe yet again.

 

But you ARE going to be getting the "Tools you need as a Raid Leader" in 1.2

 

The Personal Combat Logs can be saved to disk and will be easily parsable in tools like ACT or WorldofRaids. If your raid is struggling or there are people who want to improve, they will have the tools and options available.

 

Not only that, but the combination of Logging/Parsing and Training Dummies means the "ElitestJerks" crowd will soon be going nuts with optimized builds and rotations that you will be able to steer people towards who are looking for help.

 

What you won't get is the ability to "judge" whoever you want, whenever you want while furiously stroking your epeen.

 

Perhaps it's time all of you "so-called hardcore" people took the advice you love giving to others:

 

If metrics and competition are important to you then find other like-minded people and raid with them using 3rd Party Tools with Mandatory Parses.

[MPagano]

ORLY?

 

I'd like to see your source for that.

 

If it was the Guild Summit, they specifically said they do NOT want Threat or Group Damage Meters. They did say that they want to do a better job of providing tools like Target of Target and clearer Visual Cues to help people manage Threat or analyze their OWN performance.

 

Basically, they've said long-term they'd like to see an in-game tool to supplement the PERSONAL COMBAT LOG, and that's it.

 

There's a few posts on this forum and other forums. They've already said they'll be adding combat logs for at least the player him/herself as well as the ability for 3rd party mods to create parsers. Maybe not on the large scale, but you'll still be able to use these tools to extract the information that some raiders like to use.

[Starglide]

ORLY?

 

I'd like to see your source for that.

 

If it was the Guild Summit, they specifically said they do NOT want Threat or Group Damage Meters. They did say that they want to do a better job of providing tools like Target of Target and clearer Visual Cues to help people manage Threat or analyze their OWN performance.

 

Basically, they've said long-term they'd like to see an in-game tool to supplement the PERSONAL COMBAT LOG, and that's it.

 

Go watch the recording of the guild summit. I am not here to provide sources for you while you post in a thread lacking the information you are defending/discussing.

 

 

EDIT: I just couldn't resist...

 

: Threat meters, dps meters – are they coming? what is bioware’s stance? A: we want reliance on in-game visual cues but that is not we say we won’t give you dps and threat meters. We will have them in but just not in 1.2. We you to have control over what other see about your character – we went for the middle ground – in 1.2 you will be able to use a simple input in the chat system to see what defeated you. we also have a very detailed combat log you can write to your disk – someone enterprising can use it for their guild to see their performance but it will be out of game (3rd party).

 

Source: http://dulfy.net/2012/03/05/swtor-guild-summitlive-blogging/

 

 

You probably won't reply given how wrong you are... but I really hope you read this. People coming here not understanding the discussion is getting very frustrating.

 

It amazes me how people are in this thread saying NO to combat logs because they fear the implementations that BioWare has CONFIRMED they are putting in the game. WE DON'T WANT COMBAT LOGS TO GUAGE PEOPLES PERFORMANCE. THIS WILL BE UNAVOIDABLE IN HARD/NIGHTMARE MODE SINCE BIOWARE HAS CONFIRMED THEY ARE GIVING US THESE GAUGES IN THE FUTURE.

 

Stop posting in here and create a separate thread disputing those BioWare decisions. Don't post in here misinterpreting the true use of what we are defending. Also, create a poll if you want. I bet a lot of people will vote against those things as well. But BioWare will STILL put them in. The casual demographic makes up most of the game, but they simply do not have the experience or interpretations to make crucial decisions like that. Everyone understand that the exclusion of these TOOLS are nagging and self centered.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Starglide

[Osicat]

If you in a guild who accualy play for fun and dont care if you play wery bad or do extremly low dmg/healing well then there is no problem.

 

Ofc there should be combat logs, its a faul that it was not in the game form start. How can you min/max your caracter to get the ultimate dps output if you dont have the tools to analyce yourself?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[AluminumMonster]

I find it soooo bizarre that people are opposed to a combat log that actually tells you useful information.

 

This combat log forces Bioware to make encounters even easier.

 

Why would someone not want to know why they are sucking?

[Starglide]

But you ARE going to be getting the "Tools you need as a Raid Leader" in 1.2

 

The Personal Combat Logs can be saved to disk and will be easily parsable in tools like ACT or WorldofRaids. If your raid is struggling or there are people who want to improve, they will have the tools and options available.

 

Not only that, but the combination of Logging/Parsing and Training Dummies means the "ElitestJerks" crowd will soon be going nuts with optimized builds and rotations that you will be able to steer people towards who are looking for help.

 

What you won't get is the ability to "judge" whoever you want, whenever you want while furiously stroking your epeen.

 

Perhaps it's time all of you "so-called hardcore" people took the advice you love giving to others:

 

If metrics and competition are important to you then find other like-minded people and raid with them using 3rd Party Tools with Mandatory Parses.

 

OMG... please go back and read.

[ferroz]

Because combat logs with opt out options would require adding filters for everyone's client to filter out everyone else's combat data who opt'd out.

No, the efficient way to do that would be to filter them at the server level. It's a boolean flag, so that particular filtering is dead simple to implement. I mean, filtering by that boolean is easy; instead of filtering on "player.id = player" you filter on "player.IsPublic" Edited March 9, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

There is a huge problem with the toggle off/on combat log solution: it's very difficult to implement.

No, absolutely not; it's exactly the same as filtering by player.Id except that you filter by player.IsPublic

[Blotter]

I find it soooo bizarre that people are opposed to a combat log that actually tells you useful information.

 

This combat log forces Bioware to make encounters even easier.

 

Why would someone not want to know why they are sucking?

 

What don't you undertand about BW IS GIVING YOU THE INFORMATION YOU CLAIM YOU NEED???

 

It won't be real time, but will be something yuo have to look at after the raid, much like a sports team reviews tape but can't do so while playing via a holographic HUD in their helmets.

 

So:

 

1. You will have the information you claim you need. Really. Stop pretending you won't.

 

2. It won't be real time (other than your personal info), because BW made the design decision that they want you to actually have to LEARN TO PLAY by trial and error and by actually paying attention to the game and the encounter, the visual cues, the animations, etc., instead of staring at a real time combat log/dps meter window.

 

3. If this compromise solution isn't good enough for people who feel they need a combat log/dps meter to stare at in real time instead of learning the raids/boss encounteres by trial and error and reviewing performance after the attempts to learn what went wrong (or right as the case may be), then I suggest they immediately stop trying to claim they are "hardcore," because they apparently blow donkey balls at learning how to play and need a crutch to do so.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Blotter

[Starglide]

What don't you undertand about BW IS GIVING YOU THE INFORMATION YOU CLAIM YOU NEED???

 

It won't be real time, but will be something yuo have to look at after the raid, much like a sports team reviews tape but can't do so while playing via a holographic HUD in their helmets.

 

So:

 

1. You will have the information you claim you need. Really. Stop pretending you won't.

 

2. It won't be real time (other than your personal info), because BW made the design decision that they want you to actually have to LEARN TO PLAY by trial and error and by actually paying attention to the game and the encounter, the visual cues, the animations, etc., instead of staring at a real time combat log/dps meter window.

 

3. If this compromise solution isn't good enough for people who feel they need a combat log/dps meter to stare at in real time instead of learning the raids/boss encounteres by trial and error and reviewing performance after the attempts to learn what went wrong (or right as the case may be), then I suggest they immediately stop trying to claim they are "hardcore," because they apparently blow donkey balls at learning how to play.

 

In order for us to get everything that happened, we would have to request that every member give us their personal logs. Then, we will have to combine those and calculate all the figures (combining the information). This not only takes a lot of work, but risks information being lost and inaccurate information being calculated. All at the expense of casuals who are afraid of being judged when in fact, will be unavoidable given the DPS METERS and THREAT METERS BioWare has CONFIRMED will be given to us in the near future. (Even though I still believe you will not be judged if you play Story mode)

[Goats]

I support a PERSONAL log so I can better myself. I don't need some punk telling me how to play the game. I'll play how I want and feel comfortable doing it. Needless to say, I still pull fantasic DPS.

 

You have absolutely no way to tell if you're doing 'fantastic' dps until they implement a proper combat log.

[Derekloffin]

You have absolutely no way to tell if you're doing 'fantastic' dps until they implement a proper combat log.

 

Sure their is:

 

"Hey guys, I just got X dps on boss Y, that's great!"

 

"Bah, I got X+Z dps on that boss, you suck"

 

"Nah, you both suck, I got X+A dps on that boss."

 

"Prove it!"

 

"Fine, here's my log"

 

Get enough of those, which we inevitably will, you can easily know where your personal dps stands.