Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

[navido]

If they had someone who replied to threads and said "Your concern has been noted and will be looked into," there would be far less outcry.

 

When people think there is a problem, and get zero feedback, they assume they were not heard. So they speak louder, then they shout, then they scream, then they rage-quit.

 

You don't have to admit that it is broken.

 

You don't have to post what you are doing to fix it.

 

You just have to tell the community that they have been heard. Then perhaps someone could maintain a sticky of "Heard complaints" that people could check before re-posting the same one over and over.

 

And then...amazingly, we might have boards that had content besides people crying out for changes.

 

^^^^^^This, silence and then random outbursts like this do nothing but destroy the community perception of the Dev team. Acknowledgement is a very powerful motivator and seeing as how this is an MMO most people here are driven by it. A simple response to a well thought out thread with helpful feedback would have been very constructive and gone miles with the healing community as a whole.

 

It's a shame really.

[SableShadow]

<snip>

 

Sure. It's been like watching the regen nerf-coaster in CoX. Jack E's "A small tweak" my sweet bippy.

[Coldin]

If they had someone who replied to threads and said "Your concern has been noted and will be looked into," there would be far less outcry.

 

When people think there is a problem, and get zero feedback, they assume they were not heard. So they speak louder, then they shout, then they scream, then they rage-quit.

 

You don't have to admit that it is broken.

 

You don't have to post what you are doing to fix it.

 

You just have to tell the community that they have been heard. Then perhaps someone could maintain a sticky of "Heard complaints" that people could check before re-posting the same one over and over.

 

And then...amazingly, we might have boards that had content besides people crying out for changes.

 

QFT

 

When we first heard about the Scoundrel/Operative nerfs, there were several threads voicing our concerns about them. But the only response from Bioware was their forum moderators condensing and closing threads. I believe there was one response also in an interview with some internet celebrity, but the response didn't address our concerns just acknowledge the nerf.

 

Since then we've gone a long time without any developer communication. The response to Healing concerns was nice, but then it also came off as slightly dismissive by saying that Operative/Scoundrels are healing Operations just fine, ignoring the fact that other healing classes can do it better.

[Ojas]

I'm a Sroc healer (Mostly PvE Raiding)

 

I just want to say.. Who the heck cares about DI... really. DI is my "oh s#(@" heal when the MT is hovering at 10% and i need a lucky crit to get him back to a manageable level

 

otherwise I NEVER use it in my regular rotation.

 

my raid healing rotation is

 

resurgence -> innervate -> consumption (repeat)

 

during the 9s cool down while i wait for innervate I throw out static barriers or throw at a revivification (purple circle)

 

DI to me is last in my bag to be used.

 

why such adherence to the rotation? because that's the only way I'm going to be able to have enough force to endure the fight. If a sorc healer breaks the rotation for too long you bottom out.. and there is no "Pop a cool-down to gain half your force bar back" ability for sorcs. The only way to restart the system is to spam consumption on yourself (draining a chunk of your health) so you can restart the cycle and get the non-punishment consumptions form innervate cirts.

 

TLDNR:

The fact is the OP has never healed as a sorc and tries to compare apples to oranges.

 

 

So your explanation is.

 

"We have such a great heal arsenal we don't even need to use dark infusion".

 

Resurgence costs 30 Force.

Innervate costs 40 Force.

 

That just further reinforces my point.

 

Operatives are limited by their resource pool, and Sorcerers are not. That being a simple fact. Why do Sorcerers get stronger heals, better buffs and substantially better utility.

[CWRicheson]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

These boards are really toxic enough without posts like this. Please try to engage the community in a friendly, respectful manner. Some of us are interested in these sorts of concerns. I, for example, play both a 50 Inquisitor and 50 Agent both specced for healing in heroic 5 man instances. The Inquisitor is notably superior to my Agent in every way. I continue to be surprised with the manner in which Bioware representatives respond to concerns about these two classes in comparison based on the roles for which they are expected to serve.

[Urkanan]

 

[...]

 

Note that Force Surge can proc on either the initial heal, or one of the three hot ticks. At 30% crit chance, that means Innervate has a .3+.3+.3+.3 = 120% chance to activate Force Surge.

 

[...]

 

 

I was actually going to show the math that proves many of your reasonings wrong, but this made me realize what a waste of time that would have been, so I'll try and fix this first.

 

In case you really want to know, I'll tell you how you calculate that, but I want to warn you it will destroy your bubble. You may wanna skip this.

 

The odds of not critting at all in any of the 4 hits (at 30% crit chance) are 0.7*0.7*0.7*0.7 which equals 0.2401 (24,01%). That means a 75.99% chance to have at least one critical hit, thus activating Force Surge. Not 120%.

 

editted for grammar and removal of ranting

Edited March 9, 2012 by Urkanan

[Spatzimaus]

The odds of not critting at all in any of the 4 hits (at 30% crit chance) is 0.7*0.7*0.7*0.7 which equals 0.2401 (24,01%). That means a 75.99% chance to have at least one critical hit, thus activating Force Surge. Not 120%.

 

Normally this'd be correct, except that since there's a time gap between the ticks, there's a possibility of using the effect more than once for twice (or more) the utility. That is, you can get a crit on the first tick, use that to pay for Consumption, and still have enough time to get a crit on a later tick for more Consumptions. So you can't just do the exclusivity math you give above, since it assumes only a binary solution set (crit or no) instead of accounting for this extra possibility.

 

Ergo, while you're correct that it's a 76% chance of getting at least one critical hit over the course of a single Innervate, the average number of Force Surges per Innervate activation would in fact be 1.2, barring GCD or Consumption stacking issues. That later value is the one that matters more, because it's directly related to the utility Sorcerers get from that talent; while there's still a 24% chance of getting no effect, that's more than balanced by the additional effect you get from critting on multiple ticks.

 

If they wanted it to be less abuseable, they'd change it to "Each crit of Innervate reduces the health cost and regen penalty of your next Consumption by 12.5/25%. This effect can stack with itself up to 4 times." Besides just being more balanced (and not making the talent that reduces Consumption costs worthless), it'd also give you a reason to not use the Consumption on each and every crit tick of Innervate, since the more crits you get the cheaper the next Consumption would be. To compensate for the loss in raw power, they could add a second effect like "...and increases the crit rate of future Innervate pulses by 5/10%". That way, you might not WANT to use the Consumption because doing so would mean giving up a pretty big buff to your future Innervates.

 

But obviously they're not going to nerf Sorcerers any time soon.

[Kyntari]

Normally this'd be correct, except that since there's a time gap between the ticks, there's a possibility of using the effect more than once for twice (or more) the utility. That is, you can get a crit on the first tick, use that to pay for Consumption, and still have enough time to get a crit on a later tick for more Consumptions. So you can't just do the exclusivity math you give above, since it assumes only a binary solution set (crit or no) instead of accounting for this extra possibility.

How exactly does this work when we're talking about a channeled spell with a cooldown?

[Urkanan]

[...]

That is, you can get a crit on the first tick, use that to pay for Consumption, and still have enough time to get a crit on a later tick for more Consumptions.

 

[...]

 

I don't play sorc, but I was under the impression that Innervate was a channeled abillity, so if you cast Consumption after an early crit you are interrupting Innervate and can't get any more ticks... right?

 

Otherwise I'd agree with your counterargument to my rather lazy math.

 

EDIT: in fact, I wouldn't.

Even if you can do as you say, chance to activate FS remains 75.99%. extra uses would add extra "value" to FS or Innervate, but would't affect its chance to trigger.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Urkanan

[RuQu]

I don't play sorc, but I was under the impression that Innervate was a channeled abillity, so if you cast Consumption after an early crit you are interrupting Innervate and can't get any more ticks... right?

 

Otherwise I'd agree with your counterargument to my rather lazy math.

 

You are correct, both in your math (which I was going to point out how to do, but decided it would be pointless) and in your understanding of Innervate / Healing Trance.

[Riggz]

Does anyone know what buffs we get in 1.2?

[Ich_Bin]

Does anyone know what buffs we get in 1.2?

 

AFAIK Bioware has only stated that they want to buff our AoE heal in some way.

[RuQu]

AFAIK Bioware has only stated that they want to buff our AoE heal in some way.

 

The said changes were coming for Op/Sc healers, and a "sizable chunk" of those changes would come in 1.2, with the rest to follow. The only one specifically mentioned was front-loading KC/RN.

[Riggz]

As long as they do something I'll be happy

[MMornard]

These boards are really toxic enough without posts like this. Please try to engage the community in a friendly, respectful manner. Some of us are interested in these sorts of concerns. I, for example, play both a 50 Inquisitor and 50 Agent both specced for healing in heroic 5 man instances. The Inquisitor is notably superior to my Agent in every way. I continue to be surprised with the manner in which Bioware representatives respond to concerns about these two classes in comparison based on the roles for which they are expected to serve.

 

I disagree. I think developers should go out of their way to verbally blast trolls and whiners into submission. The trolls, whiners, and crybabies are the ones who make the forums a cesspit, not the occasional snark from an overworked, underpaid developer who has read one too many "waah waah waah" post. I would love to see people terrified to post anything other than calm, factual statements of their situations.

[MMornard]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

* applause *

[Zunayson]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Whoa! An actual Dev post in the Operative forums!

 

On a serious note, though, I prefer op healing. By keeping our energy up (easy for any decent op), our energy regen rates are better proportionally than there force rates.

 

Also we're beast single-target-tank healers.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Zunayson

[Xenthum]

Whoa! An actual Dev post in the Operative forums!

 

On a serious note, though, I prefer op healing. By keeping our energy up (easy for any decent op), our energy regen rates are better proportionally than there force rates.

 

Also we're beast single-target-tank healers.

 

It's not, when they properly use NS/Consum (which every sorc/sage in the game worth mentioning does).

Also, we're not.

[Bohnur]

Lawl. Trolls from other classes commenting in Op's forum. Shoo, trolls! Clean up your parent's basement before they take your computing privileges away! Edited March 10, 2012 by Bohnur

[Ojas]

Whoa! An actual Dev post in the Operative forums!

 

On a serious note, though, I prefer op healing. By keeping our energy up (easy for any decent op), our energy regen rates are better proportionally than there force rates.

 

Also we're beast single-target-tank healers.

 

Are they?

 

Can you prove that? Or are we supposed to take that as fact?

 

Proportional to what? Their max pool?

That's a fantastic standard.

 

I in fact proved that is not true with the very first post in this thread.

[Ojas]

Complicate the argument.

 

Prove the operative energy system is superior when compared to the sorcerer force system.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Paralassa
replies to removed posts

[RuQu]

Complicate the argument.

 

Prove the operative energy system is superior when compared to the sorcerer force system.

 

I don't have the time or energy to rewrite everything I wrote before that got removed. Here's a short version.

 

Your analysis is extremely simplistic.

 

You compare two heals and the time it takes to regenerate the resources to cast them.

 

While there is nothing wrong with such a comparison, it is extremely shallow and neglects to factor in how the abilities are used.

 

To do so you need to examine how each class really heals.

 

Let us assume we meet a Scoundrel after their initial opener, so SRMP is at 2 stacks already and Pugnacity is ticking.

 

At this point, the Scoundrel will be casting the simple rotation of UWM->EMP, with UWM as the 25 Energy big heal that generates UH and EMP consuming UH and being instant and free. Every 15-17 seconds SRMP will need to be cast to keep it from dropping off (which would require a double cast), and this will clip the last tick of the HoT, thereby reducing the HPCT and HPE of SRMP. SRMP ticks every 3s with a 30% chance to proc UH, and an internal cooldown of 6s on the proc. So their rotation looks like this:

 

SRMP if < 2s remaining

Pug if UH = 2 and < 3s remaining

EMP if UH = 2

UWM if Energy ~ 75 or greater

 

You also need to examine the Sage rotation. Deliverance (Sage equivalent of DI) is not a key component of their rotation. It is used only if the tank still needs a heal and nothing else will do. Their rotation looks like:

 

FA if no debuff

Rejuv if not on CD

Healing Trance if not on CD

Noble Sacrifice if HT crit

*standard rotation repeats the above*

*if tank took major damage, proceed to:*

Deliverance

 

Now, once you have a general rotation established, you should look up the coefficients of all of the abilities, determine how much they will heal for using some assumed equal stats, and then implement an assumed damage cycle to the tank and make each rotation cope with it. After you have them both heal the same amount of incoming damage, you can look at their net resource levels and ask if they seem balanced within the context of the size of their resource pools.

 

So, again, your OP was extremely simplistic and comparing completely different spells. You may as well have a Sorc compare Kolto Infusion to Innervate.

 

By coming and creating such an inflammatory OP and absurd thread title while providing such a shallow analysis, you open the door for GZ to (rightly) dismiss your argument. Which is unfortunate, because there are a lot of valid arguments that Operatives/Scoundrels need a buffs/redesign/etc. The nature of how you presented your case actually does harm to the case you are trying to make (and which I support).

 

I guess you could say I don't disagree with your conclusion, I just disagree with all of your evidence and the way you present it, but better arguments support the same conclusion.

 

And yes...that's about as short as I can do.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Paralassa
reply to removed quote

[Ojas]

I don't have the time or energy to rewrite everything I wrote before that got removed. Here's a short version.

 

Your analysis is extremely simplistic.

 

You compare two heals and the time it takes to regenerate the resources to cast them.

 

While there is nothing wrong with such a comparison, it is extremely shallow and neglects to factor in how the abilities are used.

 

To do so you need to examine how each class really heals.

 

Let us assume we meet a Scoundrel after their initial opener, so SRMP is at 2 stacks already and Pugnacity is ticking.

 

At this point, the Scoundrel will be casting the simple rotation of UWM->EMP, with UWM as the 25 Energy big heal that generates UH and EMP consuming UH and being instant and free. Every 15-17 seconds SRMP will need to be cast to keep it from dropping off (which would require a double cast), and this will clip the last tick of the HoT, thereby reducing the HPCT and HPE of SRMP. SRMP ticks every 3s with a 30% chance to proc UH, and an internal cooldown of 6s on the proc. So their rotation looks like this:

 

SRMP if < 2s remaining

Pug if UH = 2 and < 3s remaining

EMP if UH = 2

UWM if Energy ~ 75 or greater

 

You also need to examine the Sage rotation. Deliverance (Sage equivalent of DI) is not a key component of their rotation. It is used only if the tank still needs a heal and nothing else will do. Their rotation looks like:

 

FA if no debuff

Rejuv if not on CD

Healing Trance if not on CD

Noble Sacrifice if HT crit

*standard rotation repeats the above*

*if tank took major damage, proceed to:*

Deliverance

 

Now, once you have a general rotation established, you should look up the coefficients of all of the abilities, determine how much they will heal for using some assumed equal stats, and then implement an assumed damage cycle to the tank and make each rotation cope with it. After you have them both heal the same amount of incoming damage, you can look at their net resource levels and ask if they seem balanced within the context of the size of their resource pools.

 

So, again, your OP was extremely simplistic and comparing completely different spells. You may as well have a Sorc compare Kolto Infusion to Innervate.

 

By coming and creating such an inflammatory OP and absurd thread title while providing such a shallow analysis, you open the door for GZ to (rightly) dismiss your argument. Which is unfortunate, because there are a lot of valid arguments that Operatives/Scoundrels need a buffs/redesign/etc. The nature of how you presented your case actually does harm to the case you are trying to make (and which I support).

 

I guess you could say I don't disagree with your conclusion, I just disagree with all of your evidence and the way you present it, but better arguments support the same conclusion.

 

And yes...that's about as short as I can do.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...C1wemg1NndSZGc

 

I made a model for our energy usage awhile ago.

Why do I need to consider the players rotation?

 

I am pointing on, using a very simple system. that when referencing regeneration rate to the actual cost of the abilities that class uses, sorcerer is better.

 

Let's take this model.

 

The average force cost of all Sorcerer abilities = 56.667

Average amount healed in full champ/battlemaster gear with all their abilities = 2389.8

 

The average energy cost for all of the operative healing abilities (including no cost abilities) = 17.5

Average amount healed in full champ/battlemaster gear with all their ability = 1660.75

 

Let's get the value for healed points per point of Force: 2389.8/56.667 = 42.17353 health per point of force.

 

Now for the energy.

1660.75/17.5 = 94.9 health per point of energy.

 

 

Looking at regen rates:

 

8 Force per sec * 42.17353 = 337.3882 health for 8 force

 

For operative it is variable:

5/s * 94.9 = 474.5

4/s * 94.9 = 379.6

3/s * 94.9 = 284.7

2.5/s * 94.9 = 237.25

2/s * 94.9 = 189.8

 

With stimboost

6/s * 94.9 = 569.4

5/s * 94.9 = 474.5

4/s * 94.9 = 379.6

3.5/s * 94.9 = 332.15

3/s * 94.9 = 284.7

 

So. the stim boost numbers. Find out the percent difference.

 

Then compare that to the base pool.

 

I will do it for you.

 

We found the average amount of health acquired from each point of energy = 94.9

 

So:

 

100 Energy * 94.9 Health / 1 point of Energy = 9490 Health.

 

So with that base pool, an Operative can get 9490 health accumulated.

 

For Sorcerers: Let's see what their base pool does.

500 Force * 42.17Health / 1 point of Force = 21085

 

Now. compare and contrast the very slight benefit (only there if you stay about 60 energy), is balanced with the easy to play sorcerers massivly large resource pool..

 

 

General summary is.

 

Yes: Sorcerers have large base pools.

They have low regen rates relative to that force pool.

 

 

BUT

Their cost for their abilities are ASTRONOMICALLY low.

[Kozor]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

 

You do realize op is talking about overall "balance", not the fact that there are differences in abilities and design, right? Are you stupid or something?

 

A biodrone-level stupidity coming from a developer... I'm left speechless.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Kozor

[RuQu]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...C1wemg1NndSZGc

 

I made a model for our energy usage awhile ago.

Why do I need to consider the players rotation?

 

Your link is broken.

 

The rotation is central to having a conclusion that means anything at all.

 

Let's look at some fictional abilities with the following Healing per Resource values.

 

A = 100 HPR

B = 200

C = 300

D = 5

 

Average is 151.25

 

Now, let's assume there is some limitation on the highly efficient D, such as requiring some combo to pull off (UH/TA for you, MP following AP for Commandos). D is clearly terrible, and holding everything back, is clearly exaggerated to prove the point, and likely has some utility that makes it situationally useful, such as a very high HPS value that could make it good in an emergency, such as Sage's Benevolence. It wouldn't have a place in a core rotation, though. Let's look at that core rotation.

 

Let's say over a fight the healer does:

A 100

B 200

A 100

B 200

C 300

A 100

B 200

D 5

A 100

B 200

C 300

 

Now the average is 164.09. If that guy hadn't stood in fire and needed the D cast, it would have been 180.

 

The rotation matters.

 

 

So:

 

100 Energy * 94.9 Health / 1 point of Energy = 9490 Health.

 

So with that base pool, an Operative can get 9490 health accumulated.

 

For Sorcerers: Let's see what their base pool does.

500 Force * 42.17Health / 1 point of Force = 21085

 

Now. compare and contrast the very slight benefit (only there if you stay about 60 energy), is balanced with the easy to play sorcerers massivly large resource pool..

 

 

General summary is.

 

Yes: Sorcerers have large base pools.

They have low regen rates relative to that force pool.

 

 

BUT

Their cost for their abilities are ASTRONOMICALLY low.

 

1) Since the rotation matters, the numbers above are already wrong.

2) You are using a static resource pool, which ignores the passive regen while casting.

3) All you are demonstrating, if you correct 1 and 2 above is that they have a larger cushion for chain casting...to which GZ's response of "different classes are different" is the response.

4) What you should try and show, using a proper rotation and implementing passive regen, is that for a given set of conditions where an Operative will be forced to use Adrenaline Probe and then still run out of Energy again within 2 minutes (or have the accumulated damage exceed a reasonable tank HP pool) that a Sorc presented with the same incoming damage would not run out of Force.

 

The argument for it is that while they have a larger cushion for chain casting, that Mercs/Ops have a better regen model for long duration. To prove an imbalance you would need to show that this is not the case. Currently, with most fights defined by short enrage timers, the limitation on Sages/Sorcs simply doesn't present itself in the game, which is a problem of encounter design, not class balance.