Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

[Ojas]

Sorry mate, you sound too much like a permanent rant. You also seem to ALWAYS forget regen % on your calculations:

 

Operatives regen at 5% total energy per second, 3% per second in medium zone, 2% in lowest regen tier. Without the buff.

 

Socerers regen at 8/500 = 1.6% per second. Without buffs. Even less if they have 600 Force.

 

 

 

Devs have already stated that they are fixing operatives. What is exactly your point?

 

What does max pool matter if you do not include the actual cost of the abilities that use it?

 

By your logic, this would be a nerf to sorcerers.

Leave ability cost the same. Leave regeneration the same. Increase force pool to 1000 instead of 500. Now they only regenerate .8% of their max force.

 

By your logic, this would be a buff to operatives.

Leave ability cost the same. Leave regeneration the same. Decrease max energy pool by 50. Now they regenerate 12% of their max energy a second.

 

See the missteps in logic there?

[Blaac]

In a previous post one of the Devs, I believe it was Stephen Reid, responded to a complain about imbalance at low levels by saying (paraphrased) "classes are balanced at 50. Low level comparisons will vary considerably."

 

If they want us to test balance and provide feedback, they need to provide us with a way to test level 50 characters. Level-up vendors who give huge XP, character transfers, anything.

 

If they want us to test the entire game from 1-50, they should have pushed to PTR in mid-February. You can level faster than that, but rushing means skipping content, which means untested content.

 

Clearly, due to the short PTS duration, they want level 50 feedback, so give us the tools to do it right.

 

I still stand by my comment. Rather than allow players to create a whole new character at level 50 on the PTS, they need to make characters able to be copied. Is testing data acquired by someone who has never played a level 50 before and doesnt know the class in question well (which is learned by leveling the character) going to be truly accurate? Sorry but no.

 

If players truly want to TEST, they should testing the characters at the skill level they have put INTO the characters. That is why copying a character to the PTS is the best option. A player generally will learn when to use what abilities and how often by putting time and effort into it. "Training" so to speak.

 

Testing information supplied by inexperienced players who are not familiar with how the class in question is played, how their talents should be used, what gear and stats they should be using, and WHEN to use their skills doesn't support a BALANCED class. It supports dumbing down the classes and talents to make every class "easymode". Having come from WoW, I can't support any idea that pushes any classes and gearing toward that "easymode" play style. I've seen how that turns out first hand.

[Blaac]

What does max pool matter if you do not include the actual cost of the abilities that use it?

 

By your logic, this would be a nerf to sorcerers.

Leave ability cost the same. Leave regeneration the same. Increase force pool to 1000 instead of 500. Now they only regenerate .8% of their max force.

 

By your logic, this would be a buff to operatives.

Leave ability cost the same. Leave regeneration the same. Decrease max energy pool by 50. Now they regenerate 12% of their max energy a second.

 

See the missteps in logic there?

 

But to IGNORE regeneration is also a "misstep in logic". Not only should the overall cost of abilities be taken into consideration, but also how much energy/force/ammo/whatever they are gaining back during those cast times.

 

I am not arguing either side of this, but in an exaggerated example: If it costs 40% of your energy to cast a heal, but you earn back half of that during the course of that cast (making it really only cost 20%), is that heal really less effective than casting something that only takes 25% and earns nothing during the cast?

 

Sure that all depends on WHEN its cast. But a skilled healer knows how to conserve energy to cast heals when they are needed rather than just chain spamming the same thing over and over. I'd take a smart healer over a spammer any day.

 

Regen %'s matter.

[silky_soft_]

Probably by listening to the same feedback that made them separate 10-49 from level 50...that players with lots of expertise destroy players without any.

 

They also specifically said during the Guild Summit Livestream that they actually have metrics on win/loss ratios and streaks for players, and find that a new 50 who gets a rapid string of losses is far less likely to keep playing PvP because all they do is die.

 

Adding in rapid PvP gear progression means more people play PvP. More people in PvP means less Huttball.

 

Are you playing for the PvP or for the loot? Cause if you are doing it just for the loot, you are doing it wrong.

 

I love huttball bro. There should be more of it in different styles and it should be mixed faction.

 

So what you are saying is that fresh 50s are going to have to fight fail people in full WH gear which is higher exp then the BM gear?

[Ich_Bin]

There's no point arguing or debating the 200 or so bitterman that always feel opressed.

 

Don't fall into the trap of every other MMO - WoW included - and make knee jerk changes.

 

Classes are just fine, on the whole.

 

First of all no offense but, if you play a Trooper and a Sorc you probably don't really know enough to make a qualified comment about Scoundrel and Operative class balance.

 

Secondly let's recap what happened:

"200 or so bitterman that always feel opressed" asked for Operative nerfs. That resulted in a huge nerf or in other words: "falling in the trap of every other MMO - WoW included - and make knee jerk changes".

 

Now all we are asking for is some compensation for those "knee jerk changes" in order to be viable in group PvP and PvE again. We are not asking the developers to nerf another class, we are asking for a buff to our class that makes it en par with the other classes again.

And you being the one that wants to keep our class nerfed are actually asking for the knee jerk change to stay.

[whitejackale]

You should try using emergency med pack some time.

[TrentL]

I'm a 50 Operative healer doing Hard Modes and some normal Operations. For the most part i find that my healing is okay I wouldn't say stellar by any means.

 

But the problem comes in heavy spike / aoe damage situations I find that is where the difficulties come into play.

 

First my AoE is centered on me, which means I have to run into the "Pack" where all the damage is occuring.

 

Second my regen is starts to slow down drastically in heavy spike situations, so in these situations not only do I need to heal the most, but I'm being punished the most.

 

I have to mindlessly watch the timer on my TA because, which gets awfully boring.

 

Changes I would like to see:

 

1. our AoE heal is targetable on a group member who becomes the center of the heal instead of us.

 

2. I'd like to see Tactical Advantage have no timer, we have enough timers to watch and the UI sucks it doesn't even show our HoTs timers, so I'm constantly clicking on each person to see if my HoT is about to fall off.

 

3. Better UI for managing our HoTs.

 

I'd start there, no need to get too too drastic, with TA not disappearing it gets rid of it falling off in mid heal and canceling the heal (which sucks), its easier to manage our own heals, (At times TA has fallen off and I didn't notice and it takes me a second to figure out why I can't heal)

 

I also have a 50 Sorc Healer and I find by far he is healer to heal in PvE, with the combinations of of Resurgence and Dark heal, and Innervate + Consumption I rarely run out of Force. I found the heals alot easier as a Sorc than an Op.

[Ryemfoh]

Secondly let's recap what happened:

"200 or so bitterman that always feel opressed" asked for Operative nerfs. That resulted in a huge nerf or in other words: "falling in the trap of every other MMO - WoW included - and make knee jerk changes".

 

I thought that the devs said that Operative burst was adjusted because their metrics were showing Operatives were able to kill their targets faster than intended ... not because people were moaning on the forums.

 

As much as the people here whine about the Surge nerf - this was not an Operative nerf, it was a base stat nerf that effected all classes and was done because Surge was so powerful it made Surge stacking the most effective way to gear your character - on any class.

 

Honestly, I can't wait for combat logs to come in. At least then there will be some actual proof behind some of the whining on the forums ... not that proof (or lack there of) has ever had any significant impact on mans ability to whine

[Ich_Bin]

I thought that the devs said that Operative burst was adjusted because their metrics were showing Operatives were able to kill their targets faster than intended ... not because people were moaning on the forums.

Yeah right. Because the developers always tell the truth and never say something that is better for their business instead.

 

As much as the people here whine about the Surge nerf - this was not an Operative nerf, it was a base stat nerf that effected all classes and was done because Surge was so powerful it made Surge stacking the most effective way to gear your character - on any class.

 

Honestly, I can't wait for combat logs to come in. At least then there will be some actual proof behind some of the whining on the forums ... not that proof (or lack there of) has ever had any significant impact on mans ability to whine

 

I don't say that the surge nerf was a bad decision. But it effected Operatives/Scoundrels by far the most out of all classes because this class relies on burst damage the most. The surge nerf (and biochem nerf) should have happened before the Operative nerf.

[RuQu]

I love huttball bro. There should be more of it in different styles and it should be mixed faction.

 

So what you are saying is that fresh 50s are going to have to fight fail people in full WH gear which is higher exp then the BM gear?

 

What I'm saying is that new PvPers have more fun when a WZ isn't just people killing them in 3s every time the spawn for a whole match.

 

What I'm saying is that by narrowing the gear gap or eliminating it all together fights will be decided more by player skill and less by gear. PvP more and you will get better at it, that's the reward.

[RuQu]

I still stand by my comment. Rather than allow players to create a whole new character at level 50 on the PTS, they need to make characters able to be copied. Is testing data acquired by someone who has never played a level 50 before and doesnt know the class in question well (which is learned by leveling the character) going to be truly accurate? Sorry but no.

 

If players truly want to TEST, they should testing the characters at the skill level they have put INTO the characters. That is why copying a character to the PTS is the best option. A player generally will learn when to use what abilities and how often by putting time and effort into it. "Training" so to speak.

 

Testing information supplied by inexperienced players who are not familiar with how the class in question is played, how their talents should be used, what gear and stats they should be using, and WHEN to use their skills doesn't support a BALANCED class. It supports dumbing down the classes and talents to make every class "easymode". Having come from WoW, I can't support any idea that pushes any classes and gearing toward that "easymode" play style. I've seen how that turns out first hand.

 

I think you vastly over-estimate the number of people who would rush to PTS to instantly level. Most people have 1-4 level 50s by now, and most people would only bother testing a class they care about....which means they probably have a level 50 of it.

 

Assume you are right and some portion of the population does decide to PTS their level 30 Operative to level 50, and then test some Operations. Is not the feedback of new players in the Operation valuable feedback? Or should we only concern ourselves with experienced or hardcore raiders?

[Wulalowe]

Changes I would like to see:

 

1. our AoE heal is targetable on a group member who becomes the center of the heal instead of us.

 

 

 

I used to think it was centered on us as well, but if you look at the skill you notice it's range is 30m, you can select the target you want it to be on, and they become the center of the regen. Try it, I promise it works.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Wulalowe

[DraonaiMimnov]

LOL @ the title. IMO Bioware should be punished for catering to the WOW kids after putting up with this kind of whining over and over. Edited March 15, 2012 by DraonaiMimnov

[Kyrtin]

Reading this made my morning, thanks to Bioware's devs for making this pop up on the dev tracker.

 

Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors generate their class dynamic with abilities

Consulars/other sith generate their class dynamic at a constant rate

Smugglers/Agents/Troopers/BH all have essentially the same dynamic, which is "the more you have, the faster you get it back"(or vice versa for heat with BHs or so I hear)

 

If you don't like the dynamic of a class, DON'T PLAY THAT CLASS, it's quite simple.

 

It took me leveling a commando to 50 to realize how much I loathed that dynamic, but the class dynamic is the foundation of that class, they'd have to demolish everything on top of it to reshape it without major structural flaws. If I ever level a smuggler to 50 it'll be purely for the legacy system multi-buff I've heard word of, then I'll never touch that character again.

 

Don't get me wrong, designing class dynamics so that half of the classes in the game share the same system, which I'm far from alone in passionately loathing, was possibly Bioware's biggest mistake(close seconds would be a generic non-itemization system and a piss poor crafting system inherent in all non-itemization systems), but for the majority of players with the rate they release new content 4 enjoyable classes and 4 time-sink classes will last them until an expansion.

[Liberate]

nvmd... Edited March 15, 2012 by Liberate

[Tatermitts]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Yeah so the guy is wrong, a jerk, or whatever, but you know that people who pay for a service are called "customers", right? Being a sarcastic ***** doesn't really represent your company in a way that would be conducive to having people re-subscribe to the service.

 

The guy feels like this system isn't fair to his class, and while I don't agree with him the response to his post could have said "it was meant to be this way" or "it's working as designed". The whole "Shockingly, I'm a moderator and represent a company therefore I have to make you feel stupid for sharing your opinion" is completely outrageous. If you are paid by the company I hope your boss sees this and gives you a lesson on how to approach customer service.

[Leneux]

I see no sarcasm whatsoever in this BioWare employee's response. Maybe your confused on the definition of sarcasm? Because it looks to me like a very straight forward response to an absolutly ridiculous post.

 

And to those who say Operative Healers < Sorc Healers, I must know how your coming to that brilliant conclusion with no parses at all.

[Sarak]

Shorten the length of our 'vanish' ability cooldown, and make it drop all the dots. I spend more time running around waiting on dots to drop off than I do actually doing damage. WoW figured this out, now it's time for SW:TOR to implement it.

We simply don't do enough damage without hidden strike when you have jedis hitting you multiple times for 4500 within a second and all you can get is less than half that without hidden strike up and only hitting once every 1.5 seconds or so. totally unfair.

Furthermore you need to nerf those rock throwing, shielded, heal myself while I do damage type jedis to high heaven . They are one of the main reasons PvP has a huge class imbalance at the moment.

[Eldoth]

Yeah so the guy is wrong, a jerk, or whatever, but you know that people who pay for a service are called "customers", right? Being a sarcastic ***** doesn't really represent your company in a way that would be conducive to having people re-subscribe to the service.

 

The guy feels like this system isn't fair to his class, and while I don't agree with him the response to his post could have said "it was meant to be this way" or "it's working as designed". The whole "Shockingly, I'm a moderator and represent a company therefore I have to make you feel stupid for sharing your opinion" is completely outrageous. If you are paid by the company I hope your boss sees this and gives you a lesson on how to approach customer service.

 

Georg isnt a CSR though and probably hasnt been trained in customer service.

[Tatermitts]

Georg isnt a CSR though and probably hasnt been trained in customer service.

 

I appreciate you trying to defend him, but perhaps he could benefit from some customer service skills. MMO players complain; that's what we do. As a developer you would think he would understand that and either ignore the thread or give the guy an answer that wasn't telling him to shove his post up his butt. Instead, he responded with a post that showed no respect for the player and didn't even answer his question. As if the original poster didn't understand that the two classes were in fact different.

[Stlthshark]

I see no sarcasm whatsoever in this BioWare employee's response. Maybe your confused on the definition of sarcasm?

 

Physician, heal thyself.

 

Let's take a quick look at the definition of sarcasm, shall we?

 

1) harsh or bitter derision or irony.

2) a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark

 

Ok, now lets' look at Georg's troll...er...post

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

Note the use of the word 'shocking' as applied to the concept of classes with different names not being the same when it is blatantly obvious to anyone who can read let alone paid to play the game that they are different. This counts as harsh irony and therefore meets the given definition of sarcasm.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Again, harsh irony. Also, by breaking down the obvious concept and explaining it further, as if to a child or an illiterate, he assumes a condescending tone characteristic of derision. Sneering, if you will. This also meets the definition for sarcasm.

 

So given the above it's plain to see that the majority of Zoeller's post consisted of sarcasm. It was not constructive as no information beyond what was blatantly obvious to anyone who even glanced at the game description could tell you was present in it. It was a troll post, nothing more.

 

What makes that so frustrating and insulting was that it was entirely unnecessary. Disregard for a moment that there are there plenty of other threads RE: operatives that are higher quality and less hysterical than this one that he could have posted in (as has been rightly pointed out by others). Looking at the posts prior to the dev remarks it is clear the OP had been met with skepticism and dismissal already by the community. There was no need for any official remark from Bioware at all on this thread as it wasn't gaining any kind of traction or generating any kind of negative situation that required damage control by a company rep. The fact that he did choose to involve himself in the thread and the way he chose to do so (by taking the time to deride a customer, however hysterical) was wholly unprofessional at best and damaging to the perception of developer interest in the Operative/Smuggler community at worst.

[SinnedQWERTY]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Thank you for another example that developers/designers/number crunchers shouldn't be allowed to talk to customers directly.

 

The CSR's are probably still cringing and cursing the day you got your "BW Account" setup for the forums.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: Being snarky, defensive and talking down to your customers is not the way to go at it.

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Snarky" should of appeared instead of "Down right insulting"!

Edited March 15, 2012 by SinnedQWERTY

[islander]

Thank you for another example that developers/designers/number crunchers shouldn't be allowed to talk to customers directly.

 

The CSR's are probably still cringing and cursing the day you got your "BW Account" setup for the forums.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: Being snarky, defensive and talking down to your customers is not the way to go at it.

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Snarky" should of appeared instead of "Down right insulting"!

 

Actually, it's another example of developers only tolerating so many false tears.

 

It's refreshing. Go cancel your account. If Georg and company listened to whiners every single time, their game would go bankrupt from cancelleations because 90% of the forum whiners have no idea what they are doing, or talking about.

 

Every forum whiner has an axe to grind, yet they make up about 5-10% at most of the playing population. You know what they say about an empty can and rattling...

Edited March 15, 2012 by islander

[Mr_Nice_Guy_]

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

 

Well I don't know if you are aware of this or not BioWare, and again I knoiw we are talking apples to oranges here, but How in the F**k can an operative out DPS a Assassin?

I'm not saying you need to buff the s**t out of assassins by any means. I not saying nerf operatives either. Although I do think BOTH CLASSES back stab ability should be f**king equal. Also You made it to where it costs the assassin 100 (ALL) their force to change stances, however mercs and s**t have 3 stances, and can switch at will. Ya it was nice being able to change stances in WZ, or even in Hard Modes or Ops, and believe it or not it was the deciding factor on weather or not we wiped sometimes. But I have adapted to BioWares ****** of the assassin class.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say BioWare, is next time you try to F**k us, and by us I mean everyone who bought this game. Please spit on it, cuz it burns.

[SinnedQWERTY]

Actually, it's another example of developers only tolerating so many false tears.

 

It's refreshing. Go cancel your account. If Georg and company listened to whiners every single time, their game would go bankrupt from cancelleations because 90% of the forum whiners have no idea what they are doing, or talking about.

 

Every forum whiner has an axe to grind, yet they make up about 5-10% at most of the playing population. You know what they say about an empty can and rattling...

 

Actually, I'm enjoying my 43 Op right now (heal spec), I did notice it's harder then playing my 42 heal spec Inq. But nothing shocking yet... (but that will prob change now that I seen the healing forum and op/scoun posts, still, Ill wait and see)

 

But, I don't post much and I don't read a lot of posts also. I'm just checking the forums because the servers are down...

 

Mostly the guy sounds like he needs a break -- and then a lesson or two how to communicate to customers. His post reads like he is taking it personally or very gun-ho to defending his work/co-workers (kudos then)...

 

Still not the way to communicate... Give him a personal blog to spew, not the companies forums.

 

As for you almost directly opening with "Go cancel your account" ... yeah right, anywho, you should go work for the guy. That's the way to communicate.

Edited March 15, 2012 by SinnedQWERTY