Valor 65 Sniper Explaining [In Detail] State of Snipers in PvP atm -->

[Crankyhobo]

I think part of the challenge for them will be that they've already maxed out the sensible cap on complexity. The relative difficulty is one of the barriers to increasing sniper population. It will be less effective to add abilities when we're already actively using 10+ bound abilities. I'm sure part of reviewing the class is to redesign the most frustrating components and the ones that are not useful or counterproductive to the class intent, and to simplify the game play to appeal to a wider audience. Whether X ability should get Y change is in the weeds. Edited March 14, 2012 by Crankyhobo

[Ayestes]

That's is incredibly true. Snipers are probably one of the more prevalent terms of ability bloat. Consolidation of abilities would likely be needed then, which is also a small buff that needs to be taken into consideration. For example, if Series of Shots automatically placed a 20% Armor Debuff on the target, you wouldn't need to keep Shattershot around anymore. However that makes us slightly stronger without having to spend that global cooldown.

[Kalliadies]

I would just like to say

 

My first character was a sniper, I loved it and dominated in the 1-49 bracket, I hit 50 about 2 months in against geared players and still smash out the kills and damage in PuGs, and get picked on by premade’s who Don’t like their healer buddy being bursted.

 

My thoughts were, nah snipers are good. Just need a few bug fixes

 

Then I rolled some alts and found that I could pump out damage and kills with a lot less effort/resource while also being able to taunt/heal/kite and tank. (Vanguard, Commando, Assassin)

 

So sure I Can bring some heavy hitting to the table on my sniper, but the truth is I can be Just as devastating on my commando or vanguard with the addition of shielding my teammates from damage or healing them.

 

Snipers are good, But having played other classes, snipers are easily replaceable by someone who can DPS and tank/heal

 

It should be noted that a sniper is still my main and favoured regardless. Why? because I like destroying oponents with a class most would write off.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Kalliadies

[Ashred]

The OP can't spell ridiculous, and I couldn't read most of what he said 'cause it's filled with crap, but I agree, we need some sort of escape. I propose Disengage, what Hunters had in WoW. Maybe something weaker. Whatever it is, make is positional based, to go with our theme. Really use enviroment as a weapon.

[Technohic]

I would just like to say

 

My first character was a sniper, I loved it and dominated in the 1-49 bracket, I hit 50 about 2 months in against geared players and still smash out the kills and damage in PuGs, and get picked on by premade’s who Don’t like their healer buddy being bursted.

 

My thoughts were, nah snipers are good. Just need a few bug fixes

 

Then I rolled some alts and found that I could pump out damage and kills with a lot less effort/resource while also being able to taunt/heal/kite and tank. (Vanguard, Commando, Assassin)

 

So sure I Can bring some heavy hitting to the table on my sniper, but the truth is I can be Just as devastating on my commando or vanguard with the addition of shielding my teammates from damage or healing them.

 

Snipers are good, But having played other classes, snipers are easily replaceable by someone who can DPS and tank/heal

 

It should be noted that a sniper is still my main and favoured regardless. Why? because I like destroying oponents with a class most would write off.

 

I can agree with this post a lot.

 

I can do the same things as my sniper with my Assassin, Merc or even Marauder; and easier. I am favoring my sniper though, because I like the mechanics (yes, I like using cover and leaving and using it again) and I feel it is a bit unique as I can make good use of it while a lot of people will NEVER even roll a sniper because they think that sucks so bad. So I hope any improvements they make leaves the cover mechanic very usable and beneficial, even if not required all the time.

[Axedeo]

Besides the known bugs, like not being able to enter cover etc, i'd like to make 1 change to the cover mechanics:

Piercing precision: You gain 75% armor (and/or defence) penetration when entering Cover.

 

To me this is a simple and effective "fix" to bring snipers in line with the other dps classes in this game.

[Technohic]

Besides the known bugs, like not being able to enter cover etc, i'd like to make 1 change to the cover mechanics:

Piercing precision: You gain 75% armor (and/or defence) penetration when entering Cover.

 

To me this is a simple and effective "fix" to bring snipers in line with the other dps classes in this game.

 

I think I like the concept, but not sure 75% would be the right number.

[Poe_]

Besides the known bugs, like not being able to enter cover etc, i'd like to make 1 change to the cover mechanics:

Piercing precision: You gain 75% armor (and/or defence) penetration when entering Cover.

 

To me this is a simple and effective "fix" to bring snipers in line with the other dps classes in this game.

This is a great idea, elegant in its simplicity. I agree 75% might not be the right number. But some high armor pen buff for a limited time while in cover would be sweet.

 

Or maybe you can spec to 'Demolitions' and upon entering cover you deal elemental damage for the first x seconds of cover, removing the issue of armor mitigation for a short time, greatly enhancing the burst from most of our attack openers.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Poe_

[BaineOs]

Excellent post by the original poster I have to say and having read your responses to some of the points here to me it sounds like you are a person who actually knows the in's and outs of pvp.

 

A lot of snipers will know how to pvp I'm sure but there are few people around who truely knows a class.

 

I have a lvl 50 sniper (mm) on a low population server but theres no way I'm waiting for an hour plus just to get into a warzone. So here I am raising a new sniper (again mm) on a higher population server with a lot more pvp that I have before. (lvl 35 at the moment)

 

I've had some warzones where there has been mauraders who make a bee line for me only to find I kill them without a sweat. And then there are others who take me down so quickly it's not even a joke.

 

PVP is very subjective, you take a true expert (and I mean a true expert, not a pretender) of one class and he or she will most likely dominate every other player regardless of class....except for those that are nearly or as skillfull as he/she is.

 

The sniper in my view is meant as a pure dps dude, nothing else.

 

Take that true expert I was talking about and put him in a 1 on 1 duel with all cooldowns against the average pvp'er and i'd like to think they'd win the majority of the time. Add in a huge range of 1-49 and the ownage will continue. As soon as they ding to 50 you'll encounter premades and high geared players.

 

Premades want to win, pure and simple. They will always take players that add something to the team. The original poster was not talking about damage and kill ratios but utility skills/abilities and that's why from my limited experience I throw my lot in with him...or her

 

Only thing I would add to this (which I doubt a lot of people will go with) is our utility is our dps. With that utility we can help turn the tide sometimes entirely if we choose our targets right or until reinforcements arrive. That of course if with all the chaos they don't notice you . Of course to make things clear I must point out that i'm not talking about the entire warzone but the mini battles that goes on in them. For me that's where our strengths lie and that's where I'll always aim to be, where I can do the most good for the team.

[TehChozenOne]

Petitions usually have negative connotations. The best way to get Developers to listen to you is to be constructive and explain things thoroughly. Actual discussions are great. Exaggerations and selective analysis is bad. Even then, forum discussions should only be a small fraction of what a Developer looks at in terms of balancing the game. No matter how right we actually are or how right we think we are.

 

Personally I agree with a lot of what you've said. However when you start saying that last point in 31 points of Madness does tons of damage... it makes me believe you are a little too emotional when you wrote this post. Frankly as a Sorc it's traditionally not taken because it doesn't do enough damage. This discredits a lot of what you've said right there, and it's just a single line. It shouldn't have that effect, but it does. Also it really seems like you have a sense of self-entitlement throughout the post as well. As if a certain class deserves these things in every single MMO because that is what is supposed to happen. Who decides what is supposed to happen in terms of game design? Certainly not you alone. Personally I don't feel we need a slow, at all. Should the root be better? Perhaps, but we certainly don't need a a new untalented slow.

 

Now, I originally read your post and wrote you off as a rager. However since the topic has garnered plenty of attention it seems, I actually gave it a second chance. There is some great stuff in here, and I want to discuss some of the changes you suggested.

It seems I have met my match. I'll take some time later to go through your post [and i read your thread as well].

 

I would also be willing to bet that you rerolled your Sorc after you got your Sniper to BM [am i right its cool.. i did the same thing, but my Sorcerer is not a BM yet, so I admit my ignorance in the endgame aspects of Sorc play beyond what I've experienced verses the other good Sorc PvPers on my Server].

 

On another note.. please give me some footage of your gameplay so i can add a MM portion to my PvP vid I'm in the process of making so we can have the most well spoken Snipers in the forums collaborate and make something that Bioware can really look at and see the shortcomings of our class.

 

 

Let me also respond to a post above.

 

One of the larger issues of PvP in ToR atm, is that though some classes "automatically" beat others [rock/paper/scissors argument] take anything a Sniper can realistically do, and then find an answer that the other 1v1 class can do to make what you just did useless. The biggest issue you come across is that due to health/expertise scaling 1v1s last too short of a period of time [less than 45sec against skilled+geared players] for Snipers VERY useful CDs to make a huge impact.

 

I plan to have a decent amount of duels in my next video, and I can very confidently tell you that unless you catch someone in the open, and you have Entrench [which in MOST cases in an autowin], you NEED Cybertech Grenades to win.

 

CD for CD we lose.

 

There are also some class balancing issues at hand as well.. mainly for the Assassin, Powertech, Operative and Marauder.

 

Marauders are squishy.. however because they have so many defensive CDs it is VERY hard to kill them... and they hit like a truck [bleeds hurt.. ALOT].

 

Assassins have an answer to EVERY class in the game.. in every respect a good assassin should be able to solo ANY class in the game [given they have ALL of their CDs].

 

Powertechs [given an average string of luck w/ procs, crits, ect] will out Damage/Tank you 1v1 in the open.. even if you entrench.

 

Operatives [unless you can pull them out of stealth before they can open] will bring you down to 2/3rds health before you can answer.. bring in a vanish+reopen, and you're looking @ 1/3rd of your health left. They can also Evasion and Cleanse your DoTs.

 

 

Ayestes will surely agree with me when I also claim our "dueling spec" to be MM/Engin. The outright burst puts ALOT more pressure which causes "freakouts" or misplays. MM is MUCH better are ruining another player's OODA loop. They also have an additional knockback, and a "blind".

 

Leth/Engineering has too much requirements to "set up" their damage wasting valuable GCDs whereas MM does flat burst, and then resets. In a 1v1 situation your DoTs will always be cleansed.

 

WZs are a different beast entirely.

 

In a similar respect Arenas [unlikely to be happening anytime soon due to LARGE class imbalances] will probably be dominated by Leth/Engineering because of the sustained damage and AoE aspects of Corro Nade + the burst of Cull [which would allow for a hard switch w/ 2 globals].

[Ermonican]

Not sure if it has been mentioned before and it won't solve a lot of min/Max issues but how about letting snipers see through stealth? Could he an easy way to add some utility. *flame cup on!*

[Kalliadies]

The thing about being a Pure DPS class, is that you have to be brilliant at it (as a class) to be desirable over characters that can heal/protect and DPS

 

In Swtor they said at the beginning that All classes would be capable of comparable DPS with 5% of each other. Naturally this shoots PURE dps in the knee as that’s ALL they can provide.

 

So what this means, is that PURE dps classes must have some other mechanic to compensate. This was attempted in the form of;

 

CC

• Sniper CC, though abundant, is nearly all broken on damage within a global cooldown, Sorcerers provide MUCH greater hard CC while being able to damage and heal
  

Renewable Energy

• In my experience this renewable resource on the sniper is worse than the other classes I have played (Vanguard, commando, juggernaught, Assasin)
  

Defensive Cooldowns Mobile

• Sniper probably has the most inferior defensive cooldowns. Shield probe is abysmal, Evasion is great for dodging one killing blow that’s not tech or force.
  

Defensive Cooldowns Stationary

• Cover evasion isonly useful against other snipers. Entrench and Balistic shield, lock an already squishy class in place. So really its setting you up to be focus fired. (It is very effective in the 49 bracket, pretty lame in the 50)
  

• Powertechs and Juggernaughts have a BETTER portable version of balistic shield on a MUCH shorter cooldown. I have a screenshot of 123,200 protection in a warzone thanks to my AoE taunts
  

It is my opinion that in these “compensation” areas the sniper offers nothing of note.

 

Marauder would be in the same boat HOWEVER they have;

 

• the strongest Mobile Defensive cool-downs
  

• next to no resource restriction
  

• the ONLY Healing debuff in the game
  

• a combat stealth disengage
  

 

Compensation for the marauder is above excellent

 

Bioware did well (almost too well) with the marauders compensation. Sniper needs work.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Kalliadies

[Technohic]

I have been finding you can do GREAT and even feel like a friggen monster in PvP against people that don't know how to deal with you. Once you run into the ones that do know how, you get blown out of cover and wasted before you can even get your damage out.

 

Ran into some that knew tonight. Basically I was stunned before I could get entrench, they all would focus on me, then this big old alpha strike would come at me all at once. Not even a chance to get a full resolve bar. If I break away before that, I am stunned immediately after and still dead.

 

I don't know. Just a little frustrated tonight I guess after feeling pretty good the last. Just the way it is I guess.

[TehChozenOne]

I have read the patch note..

 

I am not pleased with the overall class balancing changes.

[achtungbabies]

The change to scatter shot is welcome, a 20% healing debuff will make us slightly more useful in PvP.

 

I'm a bit underwhelmed by the rest of the changes though. Changing imperial assassain to a 3 point talent for the same effect is good but the introduction of 'seige bunker' is pretty meh.

 

They've changed sniper volley to increase energy regen as well as alacrity but energy management isn't really an issue with marksman anyway.. it would have been nice to see something more useful there like a small damage increase or crit buff.

 

The 3% crit reduction from 3/3 lethality is annoying.

 

Calculated persuit looks interesting in engineering. 6 seconds of energy free overload shot is enough time to use it 3 times? You could potentially keep popping in to cover to trigger the proc and just run round spamming overload shot. Granted its not our highest damage attack but it would give us a lot more mobility.

 

 

It's a shame to see no changes to shield probe or evaision but at least they've fixed the root/cover bug!

Edited March 17, 2012 by achtungbabies

[nikthebeast]

Wounding blast being free and cull being slightly cheaper(with a slight reduction in weapon damage) is not a trivial change for Lethality. The higher the energy, the more we can pew pew pew. The changes to lethality and razor rounds was kinda pointless but do affect other builds. Sort of makes sense when you look at the other tree's high tier crit/damage talents.

 

Scattershot helps when you got to burn someone down. I'm adding this as yet another tool in my utility belt.

 

Judging from the nerfs other classes feel they've been dealt(just read the sorcs and BHs rections), the minor shuffling about feels like an admition that we were behind before and rather than to beef us up, they reigned in the other classes.

 

...but the introduction of 'seige bunker' is pretty meh.

Maybe so but that is 2 points freed up to be spent elsewhere.

Edited March 17, 2012 by nikthebeast

[TehChozenOne]

They buffed Maras, and IMO i am pretty certain that the new PvP spec is going to be Engineering... no doubt.

[Radared]

They buffed Maras, and IMO i am pretty certain that the new PvP spec is going to be Engineering... no doubt.

 

Why would it be Engineering? Marksmanship (imo at least) is extremely dominate in PvP. Engineering will have a two second stun with Plasma Probe, but I didn't see anything that makes Engineering the go to spec. You're excited by the Overload Shot talent?

 

I mean being able to Cover while rooted really makes me happy as that is pretty much icing on the cake for Marksmanship. I know some people aren't happy bout the new Sniper Volley...I do so much *** whipping as Marks that the extra Energy will be very useful to me.

 

Since Imperial Assassin is 3 points, I now have an extra 2 to work with. Seige Bunker is definitely lame (especially for an end tree talent) for pvp.

[Veala]

They buffed Maras, and IMO i am pretty certain that the new PvP spec is going to be Engineering... no doubt.

 

Engineering is still gonna be extremely lacking in burst damage unless they -significantly- buff the upfront damage of plasma probe. Burst damage wins in pvp. It's like Ayestes said, you react emotionally instead of thinking. =p

 

The other big dps classes (PT, Merc, and Sorc) all got hit fairly hard with the nerf bat. We got pretty much straight up buffed. Maybe we didn't get everything the forums imagined we should (surprise!), but Marks is definitely a pure buff and Lethality is probably going to be due to increased energy efficiency allowing more Culls overall.

 

So the DPS classes that could do similar damage to us all got nerfed, we got more or less buffed, and we got an incredibly useful new debuff applied to Shatter Shot. We're gonna be fine =p

[shadowAI]

 

The other big dps classes (PT, Merc, and Sorc) all got hit fairly hard with the nerf bat.

 

 

PT DPS:

Pyro pt was buffed for players who used combustible. Im happy as a player who used combustible on my pyro PT all the time(pvp) , since the procs are less RNG and will probably happen once every 6 sec. Currently I can sometime get 0 procs across 20-40 seconds.

It is a nerf in pvp for players in the tank stance.

 

MERC DPS:

tracer missile received only a 10% nerf. (please read all the notes to see how they changed things around to balance out the heat/cast time changes to be identical to now).

heatseerker received a 10% buff and I wont be surprised if they havent fixed the stacking. 11k heatseekers will be easy.

Edited March 17, 2012 by shadowAI

[PagingCraig]

So the DPS classes that could do similar damage to us all got nerfed, we got more or less buffed, and we got an incredibly useful new debuff applied to Shatter Shot. We're gonna be fine =p

 

I suggest re-reading the patch notes

[ebigz]

Compensation for the marauder is above excellent

 

Bioware did well (almost too well) with the marauders compensation. Sniper needs work.

 

 

This, this and this.

[Slurmez]

I love how people have an expectation of how they should be awesome because they have gear and valor, both of which are freebies in this game. A well played sniper/slinger is devastating, fortunately there are not many of those around.

 

Its not a faceroll class like tracer spamming BHs and Im not saying it doesnt need work but it takes a good player to get the best from a sniper and thats a good thing. There are way too many piss easy classes as is.

[Dharkeon]

I love how people have an expectation of how they should be awesome because they have gear and valor, both of which are freebies in this game. A well played sniper/slinger is devastating, fortunately there are not many of those around.

 

Its not a faceroll class like tracer spamming BHs and Im not saying it doesnt need work but it takes a good player to get the best from a sniper and thats a good thing. There are way too many piss easy classes as is.

 

Yeah - an awesome player does well on a sniper.

Then again.. another\same awesome player does all that and a lil' more on something other than sniper.

 

Snipers are not useless - but they are far from being balanced with the current possibilities available out there. (And no, haven't tested on 1.2, so commenting according to what is happening on the Live Version.)

[Veala]

PT DPS:

Pyro pt was buffed for players who used combustible. Im happy as a player who used combustible on my pyro PT all the time(pvp) , since the procs are less RNG and will probably happen once every 6 sec. Currently I can sometime get 0 procs across 20-40 seconds.

It is a nerf in pvp for players in the tank stance.

 

MERC DPS:

tracer missile received only a 10% nerf. (please read all the notes to see how they changed things around to balance out the heat/cast time changes to be identical to now).

heatseerker received a 10% buff and I wont be surprised if they havent fixed the stacking. 11k heatseekers will be easy.

 

I also have a pyro PT. You're not going 20-40 seconds without a proc, that's borderline statistically impossible. Once every 6 seconds is a nerf. Pyro's insane burst damage comes from a good chain of Rail Shot procs, because they let you spam your skills at virtually no heat gain. There's now a minimum of 4 skill uses between each proc for over 60 heat gain if you spam real skills without mixing in Rapid Shots. Pyro is gonna be far more heat limited than it used to be.

 

As for Mercs, I don't know how all those changes combine together, I don't have one. All I know is that they're upset. Considering how far off your Pyro claims are and your belief that Mercs will have an "easy" time hitting for 11k, I'm not inclined to go with your opinion, though.

 

I'll be very surprised if all these changes don't leave us (and Marauders) as king of the dps classes, it's already extremely rare that I get outdamaged, whether I'm Marks or Leth.