Sorc/Sage Friendly Pull

[buubz]

There are way too many bads playing this game, who have NO BUSINESS playing pvp, much less whining about it.

 

Yeah, class abilities matter in PvP, and group comps matter too. Welcome to PvP scrubs, the devs should do NOTHING about this because that's the way PvP is.

 

Do the carebears in PvE go raid with an all tank op? Or 7 sorcs and 1 tank? Or 7 tanks and 1 sorc? No. Why? Because group comp matters in PvE. You need certain classes with certain tools to do certain things.

 

It's the same way in competitive PvP. You want certain classes on your team for their tools. The bads in this thread want to either nerf these tools, or nerf group comps somehow. You people suck and should not be playing mmos, CoD is more your speed. Get friends and make a good PvP group comp, and figure out what YOU can do to foil sage/sorc pull instead of asking the Devs to compensate for your bad play. Protip: it's real easy, KD sorc/sage from their perch on the bridge, or if you're Sin/PT pull them right back. I hope this helps.

 

Assuming that I'm bad without ever seeing me play is a pretty jaw dropping statement. I highly doubt you're a better player than I am, but you're entitled to your opinion. I agree that you would want certain classes for certain aspects and the pros they bring to your team, but there shouldn't be such a huge bias or certain classes become literally obsolete. A 15 second debuff preventing chain rescues is hardly an unfair request, but it's clear that you're one of the many sorcs who can't see anything wrong with his 3 button layout.

[buubz]

Funny thing, is that from my perspective, it took very little talking for Operative/Scoundrel nerf. Also note that it wasn't solely the opener that got nerfed, but damage across the board with the armor penetration nerf. On the other side, it's taking an awful lot of talking for any other class to receive a major nerf. The only other big thing we've seen so far is making it more difficult for Shadows/Assassins to change stances.

 

I'd love to see Huttball more based on teamwork and strategy, than certain abilities and classes being more favored due to mechanics of the warzone.

 

There was SO much crying on the forums, literally 60% of the PvP forum was based around nerfing the Operative class (very little mention of Scoundrels, but I guess that was because of the mirror imbalance).

[XenonParsec]

A 15 second debuff preventing chain rescues is hardly an unfair request, but it's clear that you're one of the many sorcs who can't see anything wrong with his 3 button layout.

 

This is how I know you're bad without seeing you play. Instead of utilize the solution requiring skill, i.e. actually playing defense in HB and using a CC on the sorc/sages hanging out on the bridge, or preventing the friendly pull set up by ccing/killing the sage/sorc before they creep behind you, you would rather introduce a debuff so you can continue your mindless deathmatch dps spamming in the mid. Really really terrible.

[buubz]

1) there are mirror classes. both sides have access to the same ablities. specially if you group join. there is NO advantage that wouldnt be available for everyone.

2) friendly pull is a core ability of those classes. taking it away is just like taking away stealth from shadows or dual wield from sentinals. plain stupid.

3) if you lose cause of "chain pulls" you uttlery suck. its impossible to create a "line setup" for chain pulling unless the other team is total retarded. so easy to break that chain.

4) l2p

 

How is a friendly pull a core ability for the class. As much as you're going to hate hearing this, the sorc/sage class is essentially a priest from WoW, and they functioned just fine without Leap of Faith. I can't see how you'd ever compare a friendly pull to something that a class revolves around entirely. Then you have the audacity to tell me to learn to play, when you can't wrap your head around the possibility of chain pulling a ball carrier. As much as I appreciate the input on the matter, you really need to consider finding a new game to play.

[buubz]

This is how I know you're bad without seeing you play. Instead of utilize the solution requiring skill, i.e. actually playing defense in HB and using a CC on the sorc/sages hanging out on the bridge, or preventing the friendly pull set up by ccing/killing the sage/sorc before they creep behind you, you would rather introduce a debuff so you can continue your mindless deathmatch dps spamming in the mid. Really really terrible.

 

I don't even play a DPS class, so you've shown exactly how much you know about my playstyle. You also assume that a sorc has 0 escape mechanisms to prevent getting to where they need to be. Please, continue studying to be an e-psychic, you aren't there quite yet.

[Hiro]

How is a friendly pull a core ability for the class. As much as you're going to hate hearing this, the sorc/sage class is essentially a priest from WoW, and they functioned just fine without Leap of Faith. I can't see how you'd ever compare a friendly pull to something that a class revolves around entirely. Then you have the audacity to tell me to learn to play, when you can't wrap your head around the possibility of chain pulling a ball carrier. As much as I appreciate the input on the matter, you really need to consider finding a new game to play.

 

thanks for the headsup. didnt need you to look for another game. still for different reasons though.

 

yes for me it is a core ability. its obvious use for pvp was actually one of the main reasons for my class choice long before the game was released.

 

if YOU miss your priest without that pull, maybe YOU should be the one looking for a new... or rather an old game.

 

its not hard to "wrap my head" around the possiblity of chain pulling a ball carrier. its WAS EASIER to find a counter for that though.

 

and again: thanks to mirror classes there is nothing in this game that couldnt be used by both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait... He's a wise man because he says that only certain classes should be useful in pvp?

 

He's a wise man because he says that people that don't play certain classes shouldn't pvp? that's the dumest thing I've heard today.

 

All classes should have there niche in PVP AND PVE. Sadly Merc and agents have little to no utility in the current THEME based pvp system Bioware has jammed into the game.

 

I miss world PVP.

 

he never said only certain classes should be usefull. he said that composition should matter. and thats a fact.

every class has a use in certain situations on certain warzones. some are a little stronger, some a weaker. thats the nature of an mmo. things get shifted all the time.

 

if you think a 8-sorcerer team will auto win every WZ then im really sorry for you. id be happy to face that team over and over tbh.

[Mavnas]

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map.

 

EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated!

 

Sure, soon as we nerf being able to force leap with the ball, do that thing tanks can do to pull themselves to other players, and also passing, which is kind of like rescue, except everyone can do it. If you want to prevent a rescue chain, kill/knockback the sages/sorcs. A rescue chain is no different from a passing chain except that it requires very squishy links.

[Jestunhi]

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map.

 

EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated!

 

The reason this works is because people ignore the sorc / sage and let them run past.

 

Without pull they would do exactly the same thing but instead of a 30m pull they do a 30m pass, possibly followed by a leap to ally if the ball carrier which just passed was a guardian / jugg.

[Coldin]

There was SO much crying on the forums, literally 60% of the PvP forum was based around nerfing the Operative class (very little mention of Scoundrels, but I guess that was because of the mirror imbalance).

 

Mostly because of the way the opener worked with buffs, and due to the stealth nature of the class. Other classes were more than capable of dealing the same or more damage in similar situations, it was just that they did it plain sight. Perhaps it was lots of crying, but it was over a very short amount of time.

 

Not going to get into an Operative/Scoundrel discussion, but there's a reason you see so few of them today, and yet see so many Sorcs and Sages. And it's not solely because "Lightning is cool."

[vimm]

I love those post.

Remove Friendly pull

Remove grapple

Remove charge

Remove stun/root

Remove Tracer missile

Remove Stealth

 

Evryting is balance on this game.Not 100% but evrything can conter evrything.

Don't let sorc move ahead if you dont want them to Friendly pull.

 

If you remove all this from Huttball.

People will just Move ahead to get pass.

and You will be back here on forum for a Nerf on Pass ability.

Even if all class could be 100% the same.you will find a ways to call for Nerf.

 

~Hapox~

 

Hapox is a sorcerer, if anyone was wondering.

[buubz]

Mostly because of the way the opener worked with buffs, and due to the stealth nature of the class. Other classes were more than capable of dealing the same or more damage in similar situations, it was just that they did it plain sight. Perhaps it was lots of crying, but it was over a very short amount of time.

 

Not going to get into an Operative/Scoundrel discussion, but there's a reason you see so few of them today, and yet see so many Sorcs and Sages. And it's not solely because "Lightning is cool."

 

I agree with you fully, just people were more vocal with the Op/Scoundrel opener. The root of the problem was buff stacking, which they dealt with, ontop of nerfing the opener. It's obvious they went overboard and that's why there are so few ops today.

[Coldin]

I agree with you fully, just people were more vocal with the Op/Scoundrel opener. The root of the problem was buff stacking, which they dealt with, ontop of nerfing the opener. It's obvious they went overboard and that's why there are so few ops today.

 

Yep. They probably could roll back all the changes they did to Scoundrel/Operatives, and likely few people would notice unless told about it. I personally have not seen a 5k crit on my Scoundrel since surge got nerfed, which I find pretty amusing for what was supposed to be a burst DPS class.

[buubz]

thanks for the headsup. didnt need you to look for another game. still for different reasons though.

 

yes for me it is a core ability. its obvious use for pvp was actually one of the main reasons for my class choice long before the game was released.

 

if YOU miss your priest without that pull, maybe YOU should be the one looking for a new... or rather an old game.

 

its not hard to "wrap my head" around the possiblity of chain pulling a ball carrier. its WAS EASIER to find a counter for that though.

 

and again: thanks to mirror classes there is nothing in this game that couldnt be used by both sides.

 

 

It may be core to you, because you were given it from launch day, but the class that the sorc is so obviously designed around functioned without it for years, and the ability was more of an afterthought. I personally don't have a priest to miss, but thanks for taking my wellbeing into consideration. I highly doubt all the keyboard generals that are posting their 'perfect counters' to the situation I originally posted have actually even seen what I was describing, but again, I've come to expect that from people who don't read and tend to just post their ignorance. I agree that this strategy is available to both sides, and this doesn't actually concern me at all because huttball is a FACTION NEUTRAL WARZONE. It all comes down to what group comp you get thrown into, and if that comp doesn't have a few golden classes while the opposition does, you have to pray that they're garbage players or it's almost a guarenteed loss.

 

To those that will inevitably tell me that I need to get better, that I'm not using everything in my toolset to the best of my ability, that there are many easy ways to counter the scenario I've posted, or any incarnation of the three, you have to realize you've never seen me play, you probably never will see me play, and your judgements are far from wellfounded.

 

But thanks for posting!

[buubz]

Yep. They probably could roll back all the changes they did to Scoundrel/Operatives, and likely few people would notice unless told about it. I personally have not seen a 5k crit on my Scoundrel since surge got nerfed, which I find pretty amusing for what was supposed to be a burst DPS class.

 

And yet there are still people who play sweep/smash spec and can crit upwards of 6K on 5 target. But as soon as a stealth class crits for 5K with an opener, once per fight (MAX twice), it's broken and the tear floodgates open until it's 'fixed'. Just get rid of the whole 'rogue' archtype while you're at it.

[JaddynnStarr]

Sure, soon as we nerf being able to force leap with the ball, do that thing tanks can do to pull themselves to other players, and also passing, which is kind of like rescue, except everyone can do it. If you want to prevent a rescue chain, kill/knockback the sages/sorcs. A rescue chain is no different from a passing chain except that it requires very squishy links.

 

boy aint that the understatement of the year... most sorcs/sages get beat on quite regularly as i can atest to...

not many sorcs/sages can stand toe to toe with any other class and either lose bad or lose just barely... unless they are specced heals then it takes 2 people to kill him/her... sorc/sage class is soooooo squishy that often times untill the recent patch, they were the sole target of most medal grinders because they were so easy to kill... yea sure you can chain pull leap or whatever, but its easily countered with a well placed stun or knockback to that sorc that sends it flying down into the pit or into an un advantageous area to pull...

 

In the same manner that OP is upset about the pull leap strat, I wonder how he feels when he watches a jugger/maurauderwalk the ball from spawn to goal and take virtually no damage...? Ive seen some juggs just walk thru 200k dmg and have 3/4 to full health bars at the end... anyone want to cry about that too?

[buubz]

Hapox is a sorcerer, if anyone was wondering.

 

I'm convinced everyone posting against this is a sorceror, it's not an unreasonable solution, but as soon as I lay a claim against their class, they get defensive and say that it's somehow my lack of skill that pulls people from the middle to the goal line in 5 seconds.

[JaddynnStarr]

I'm convinced everyone posting against this is a sorceror, it's not an unreasonable solution, but as soon as I lay a claim against their class, they get defensive and say that it's somehow my lack of skill that pulls people from the middle to the goal line in 5 seconds.

 

simply cuz it is..... nuff said... move along...

[buubz]

boy aint that the understatement of the year... most sorcs/sages get beat on quite regularly as i can atest to...

not many sorcs/sages can stand toe to toe with any other class and either lose bad or lose just barely... unless they are specced heals then it takes 2 people to kill him/her... sorc/sage class is soooooo squishy that often times untill the recent patch, they were the sole target of most medal grinders because they were so easy to kill... yea sure you can chain pull leap or whatever, but its easily countered with a well placed stun or knockback to that sorc that sends it flying down into the pit or into an un advantageous area to pull...

 

In the same manner that OP is upset about the pull leap strat, I wonder how he feels when he watches a jugger/maurauderwalk the ball from spawn to goal and take virtually no damage...? Ive seen some juggs just walk thru 200k dmg and have 3/4 to full health bars at the end... anyone want to cry about that too?

 

The scenario you've put forward is only possible if they have healers present. The problem there doesn't lie with the abuse of one ability, it lies in your inability to interrupt/stun/cc healers. If you assume that it takes ~30s to get from the center to the goal line, and you're saying this juggernaut took 200k damage, that means he was taking over 6K DPS on average, potentially much higher with cooldown damage spiking. I find everything about that very hard to believe, but again, people don't think before they post ridiculous things.

[Coldin]

boy aint that the understatement of the year... most sorcs/sages get beat on quite regularly as i can atest to...

not many sorcs/sages can stand toe to toe with any other class and either lose bad or lose just barely... unless they are specced heals then it takes 2 people to kill him/her... sorc/sage class is soooooo squishy that often times untill the recent patch, they were the sole target of most medal grinders because they were so easy to kill... yea sure you can chain pull leap or whatever, but its easily countered with a well placed stun or knockback to that sorc that sends it flying down into the pit or into an un advantageous area to pull...

 

In the same manner that OP is upset about the pull leap strat, I wonder how he feels when he watches a jugger/maurauderwalk the ball from spawn to goal and take virtually no damage...? Ive seen some juggs just walk thru 200k dmg and have 3/4 to full health bars at the end... anyone want to cry about that too?

 

Personally, I don't like the leaping strategy for Warriors/Knights either. It basically lets them avoid a mechanic of the warzone.

 

Also, sorc friendly pulling requires significantly less effort to move the ball than passing, because all you have to do is target the player and click a skill, rather than selecting the skill, finding your teammate, and clicking in the appropriate space. Plus, if you get stunned while attempting a pass, you have to start over while a sorc only has to keep smashing his hotkey.

 

Not to mention that many Sorcs are actually not that squishy. The bubble alone can ensure they'll survive a fair bit of damage, and in hotball they have plenty of tools like knockbacks, stuns, and slows to keep someone from killing them long enough to make a pull.

 

By the way....if a Sorc has a friendly pull...then they are specced heals....so they will be very difficult to kill.

[buubz]

simply cuz it is..... nuff said... move along...

 

Confirmed for sorc/sage.

[DarkMatter]

Stealth is the real problem imo , it gives an unfair advantage to people in all warzones.No wonder imp teams have 4-6 sorcerers all the time.

[Shonuff]

I'm convinced everyone posting against this is a sorceror, it's not an unreasonable solution, but as soon as I lay a claim against their class, they get defensive and say that it's somehow my lack of skill that pulls people from the middle to the goal line in 5 seconds.

 

I sympathize with you and your fustration. But the problem with your rhetoric like many others who complain about some of the things in this game is that it's subjective. You say this is a problem but like many others have said, both teams have the potential to utilize this tactic.

 

When facing premades your gonna run into this, thats a given. Your only hope is to form a premade yourself with some Sorc/sages to take advantage of this. If your playing with a bunch of pugs of course it's gonna be fustrating. You put the best PvP'er on a pug team I promise you he won't do half as good as he would in an orgainzed team. It's you vs the rest.

 

Now try to look at this from a different perspective. Imagine they took this ability away or nerfed it in some way. How would anyone save you from falling in the pit, or firetrap or acid pit. or a group of player mobs ready to rip you to shreds. You can hate the sorc/sage but you can't help but love him too. Be fair about your assesment.

[Coldin]

I'm convinced everyone posting against this is a sorceror, it's not an unreasonable solution, but as soon as I lay a claim against their class, they get defensive and say that it's somehow my lack of skill that pulls people from the middle to the goal line in 5 seconds.

 

Maybe. It is the most popular class. Who knows, and it's not that important really.

 

What is important is when players only play a class up to level 20 or 30, and think they are experts on class balance. Indeed, I think PVP in this game is pretty well balanced until level 50. It's after that, when things like set bonuses, massive stat boosts, and a complete skill set come into play that things become unbalanced. Hybrid builds in particular are only really usable past level 40.

[Mavnas]

The scenario you've put forward is only possible if they have healers present. The problem there doesn't lie with the abuse of one ability, it lies in your inability to interrupt/stun/cc healers. If you assume that it takes ~30s to get from the center to the goal line, and you're saying this juggernaut took 200k damage, that means he was taking over 6K DPS on average, potentially much higher with cooldown damage spiking. I find everything about that very hard to believe, but again, people don't think before they post ridiculous things.

 

Your inability to CC/knockback a healer using rescue is totally different from your inability to CC a healer at any time during a 20-30 run. Oh wait, no it's not.

 

Also, sorc friendly pulling requires significantly less effort to move the ball than passing, because all you have to do is target the player and click a skill, rather than selecting the skill, finding your teammate, and clicking in the appropriate space. Plus, if you get stunned while attempting a pass, you have to start over while a sorc only has to keep smashing his hotkey.

 

That's why it has a cooldown. Passing doesn't. If a team stacks itself with one class because it beats bads quickly, they can be that much sadder when they face decent opposition. The most OP Huttball team I ever saw was 1 overgeared tank and 6 healers. It was pretty stupid. Once they got the ball, the point was theirs.

[Dayshadow]

Why not just have them drop the ball if used, same as stealth?

 

Because it's not the ball carrier fault.

 

I have been pulled at times when I didn't want to be pulled. From a higher walkway to the lower walkway. PErsonally I think it should be disabled againt the ball carrier. Furthermore, force speed should be either disabled while carrying the ball or the traps need to have their dmg increased so running thru fire is not an option. Force leap/storm needs to be disabled when carrying the ball too. It makes defense nearly impossible.

 

I play a vanguard and warrior. Anyone tries to defend their line - biotic charge.. er, storm!!! A team should not be punished for trying to remove players at the goal line. Huttball is a supposed to be a passing game. You can't have obstacles that carriers can ignore.

 

I also think harpoon is a tad overpowered. But until they do something about pbaoe knockbacks I can't see nerfing powertechs/vanguard if 1 sorc or commando can clear everyone off the walkway with a 30 sec CD ability.