SWTOR From A Competitive PvPer's Perspective

[Niaoru]

Let me give a quick background of myself before I really delve into it. I played WoW back in the day when there weren't any battlegrounds, when TM and SS were where all the PvP happened. Then came the BM/HWL grind. I got two druids to rank 12(one on each faction), but didn't get any farther because I had RL obligations. In BC, I played a feral druid in arenas. Feral druids were not very good back then, but I managed to grab duelist in the first two seasons, then gladiator in the last two of BC. WoTLK came out, and I facerolled my way to glad on a DK, and got 2600 on a rogue. When rated warzones came out, I got "Hero of the Alliance" on two characters, then quit the game. In Aion I got full Fenris gear, and a +10 bow. I also was one of the first Asmodean Generals. In Rift I had two prestige 5 characters.

 

Anyway, back to SWTOR. I logged on today, only to log off after five minutes of sitting in the fleet. It baffled me. I used to come home and be excited to log on and play, especially on Tuesdays. I was confused, and slightly worried. So I sat in my chair and tried to figure out what was wrong. I slowly began to piece it together. There was literally nothing that I could do that would matter. I could continue the BM grind on my alt, but when the next patch comes out, I'll get better gear without requiring the time invested to reach rank 70. I thought about doing warzones on my main, but again, there's no point. I am already valor 65, and there's no reason to go above that. You can't mount in warzones, and Ilum is virtually obsolete now. Even if they do come out with new valor rank mounts, when would I get to show it off? When I'm AFK in the fleet?

 

I completed the operations the week they came out, and I have no gear left to farm from them. I can't min/max my gear and rotation like I would on other games, because there's no damage meter or training dummies to sit on. I have 4 million credits, so I don't need to farm mats and craft items to sell. I guess I could make another PvP video, but I would honestly rather play MW3 right now.

 

I'm not upset because everyone is going to be on an even playing field for rated warzones. I'm not upset because I have a chance to get beat by players who others refer to as "scrubs." I'm all for even playing fields. I just see no point in rated warzones. There's no progression at all. I like having a rating to aim for knowing that I will get a new piece of gear that is a slight upgrade from what I have. From my understanding, the ratings will give us recolored PvP gear and mounts. I've already stated my opinion on the mounts. The PvP gear however, is apparently going to be fully Remodable next patch. I don't care for my current sets of PvP gear, I would much rather mix and match orange pieces of gear that are world drops/craft able. So there's no real intensive for me to play rated warzones. I honestly don't know what to do right now. I really enjoyed playing SWTOR, so I don't know what is wrong with me. I just have no desire to play, and it makes me sad.

 

I would like to reiterate one more time. I am not afraid of everyone receiving equal gear levels. At the ratings that I play at, the people that I am against are not at that rating because they have the best gear, they are there because they are very, very good. I have had people in my rated battleground groups mostly using the previous season's gear, and we still got the top .5%. Hell, I hit gladiator range in 3s with an alt paladin healer within the first few weeks, in literally 3/4 the blue PvP set. I guess what I am trying to say is... If you are that good, the gear isn't going to matter as much as everyone is making it seem like.

 

 

Holy ****. I didn't realize I wrote that much... I guess I was really motivated.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Niaoru

[Pistols]

I prefer to have two lumps of sugar instead on one, makes me feel more alive in the AM. Edited March 6, 2012 by Pistols

[KyoMamoru]

1) Get two more characters to Chapter 2 that use a different buff type, so you can be fully buffed every time you leave the gate in 1.2 for PVP.

 

2) You won't need to invest time in the Valor Ranks for War Hero gear, but there will be a significant amount of time of playing better than others that will be required.

 

3) Dummies are coming in 1.2. You'll be able to get them in your ship, one raid, and one player type.

 

4) Rating WZ give Rated WZ Commendations, which will lead themselves to at the very least, War Hero gear. With that said, there will be an increase challenge due to being paired against better players, who have better gear / understanding of their class. This also go along with the rebalancing that will be happening in 1.2 of the classes.

 

5) As you say, gear doesn't matter. However, it's a crucial step to getting players that are on the fence of doing PVP to do it. Without the gear grind, we lose a great majority of our player base. The same would be true for PVE, without gear to be gained, there's no progression, and no reason to do it.

[Aidank]

By that strand of logic logic, why did you ever get past 2200?

[Talizzar]

Explain to me why everyone will not be queuing up for the rated warzones. Explain what the purpose of the none rated WZ especially if you don't get anything for it and still have the chance to see a pile of War Hero gear in unrated wz's.

 

Honestly, BW has not put any thought into this at all. They are just throwing out stuff that they think people will want to hear because their pvp team is completely lost.

[KyoMamoru]

Would be interesting if they have a Valor requirement to queue for Ranked. [say, Valor 50?]

[Niaoru]

5) As you say, gear doesn't matter. However, it's a crucial step to getting players that are on the fence of doing PVP to do it. Without the gear grind, we lose a great majority of our player base. The same would be true for PVE, without gear to be gained, there's no progression, and no reason to do it.

 

There isn't any progression. You show up for a rated WZ and you get the commendations to buy the gear that doesn't require a rating. You can lose every single game you play, and still eventually have full War Hero gear. That isn't progression at all, and this is the main reason I don't have a desire to continue playing. They didn't say there would be seasons and titles obtained for the top players of those seasons, so that re solidifies my decision to play other games. You said so yourself. Without the gear grind, they are going to lose their player base. The new PvP set is being handed to us for participating. That does not make me want to attend the rated warzones.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Niaoru

[mikebpi]

WOW was not a PVP game. Saying you are a "competative" PVPer but your only experience is WOW is a joke.

[KyoMamoru]

There isn't any progression. You show up for a rated WZ and you get the commendations to buy the gear that doesn't require a rating. You can lose every single game you play, and still eventually have full War Hero gear. That isn't progression at all, and this is the main reason I don't have a desire to continue playing. They didn't say there would be seasons and titles obtained for the top players of those seasons, so that re solidifies my decision to play other games.

 

We do not know the requirements for War Hero, outside of that it won't require Valor. It could be tied to Rank, it could be tied to Commendations that are only handed out to players that win and achieve a certain amount of objective medals. All we can do is speculate. As mentioned, I'd just start to prepare for 1.2 by getting two other characters to Chapter 2 to always have the best possible buff on.

[Niaoru]

Would be interesting if they have a Valor requirement to queue for Ranked. [say, Valor 50?]

 

Everyone should have the option to play. I just don't think everyone should be handed the gear for showing up.

[Quasilla]

Would be interesting if they have a Valor requirement to queue for Ranked. [say, Valor 50?]

 

I sure hope not - valor measures persistence and maybe experience, but in no way skill.

[Scudmungus]

5) As you say, gear doesn't matter. However, it's a crucial step to getting players that are on the fence of doing PVP to do it. Without the gear grind, we lose a great majority of our player base. The same would be true for PVE, without gear to be gained, there's no progression, and no reason to do it.

 

O-o

 

Or maybe,

 

Just maybe,

 

They could work in some mechanics that played of each other

 

..and were..

 

..I dunno,

 

rewarding?

 

o-o

 

Street Fighter/Tekken/Soul Calibur - the gear keeps us playing!

 

No, wait, um..

Edited March 6, 2012 by Scudmungus

[Niaoru]

WOW was not a PVP game. Saying you are a "competative" PVPer but your only experience is WOW is a joke.

 

I have played FPS's since I was 7 years old. I have been killing other players in video games for the majority of my life. And tell me. If WoW PvP is a joke, then why is it the foremost MMO esport?

 

Fail troll is fail.

[Niaoru]

O-o

 

Or maybe,

 

Just maybe,

They could work in some mechanics that played of each other

 

..and were..

 

..I dunno,

 

rewarding?

 

o-o

Street Fighter/Tekken/Soul Calibur - the gear keeps us playing!

 

No, wait, um..

 

MMOs and fast paced fighting games are completely different. MMOs are gear driven, while fighting games are not. If this has to be explained to you... I don't know what to tell you.

[Darth_Sookie]

Thank you. I think it's funny how the same players can get alt after alt up to very high rating using the same gear as every other newb traveling up the bracket. They must be really really really lucky.

[Scudmungus]

MMOs and fast paced fighting games are completely different. MMOs are gear driven, while fighting games are not. If this has to be explained to you... I don't know what to tell you.

 

There is nothing different between risk/reward

 

..and rewarding quality decisions.

 

be it turn based, with pen and paper, in real time or in in 'real life'.

 

The format changes,

the fundamental design merit does not.

 

 

 

If I have to explain this to you then..

 

..no, lets not go there.

 

::

 

Unless....

 

.. acquiring set gear, is suddenly a quality, respectable choice that constitutes risk.

 

Well rewarded.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Scudmungus

[Niaoru]

There is nothing different between risk/reward

 

..and rewarding quality decisions.

 

be it turn based, with pen and paper, in real time or in in 'real life'.

 

The format has changes,

the fundamental design merit has not.

 

If I have to explain this to you then..

 

..no, lets not go there.

 

Clearly you are trying to troll, because the two genres are very different. I will ignore your posts from now on. But please, feel free to continue bumping my thread.

[TetraCleric]

They didn't say there would be seasons and titles obtained for the top players of those seasons, so that re solidifies my decision to play other games.

 

Actually, Gabe specifically said this is pre-season ranked, and Season will include incentives for higher ranks, including titles and mounts, and vanity gear.

[Niaoru]

Actually, Gabe specifically said this is pre-season ranked, and Season will include incentives for higher ranks, including titles and mounts, and vanity gear.

 

Titles would be cool, but I see no point for mounts.

[KyoMamoru]

O-o

 

Or maybe,

 

Just maybe,

 

They could work in some mechanics that played of each other

 

..and were..

 

..I dunno,

 

rewarding?

 

o-o

 

Street Fighter/Tekken/Soul Calibur - the gear keeps us playing!

 

No, wait, um..

 

The skill cap in successful fighting games is significantly higher than any MMORPG. The progression comes from the player evolving their understanding of the Metagame, improving their execution, and using all facets of that, to properly predict and interrupt their opponent. MMORPGs won't have that level of detail, due to the the fact that even at its best, we're dealing with ~100 ms latency round trip. That's six frames of animation in a two dimensional fighter, which is the time it takes for a moderately damaging move to bring out its hitbox. [Jabs are usually between 2-3 frames.] Outside of character choice [match ups, tiers matter], it is purely player driven because the player has the ability to become dramatically better.

 

MMORPGs are predominantly class, specification, and gear driven. Skill does come in, but the cap is relatively small in comparison.

Edited March 6, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[TetraCleric]

Titles would be cool, but I see no point for mounts.

 

Nor do I, just pointing out that they said those and a season based system are coming to ranked PvP.

[Scudmungus]

Movies come in many different flavours,

 

The basics of cinematography do not change.

 

Don't try to label me a troll,

 

simply because you don't know what else to say.

 

::

 

Game design isn't magic - good games reward good decisions.

 

Qualifying 'good' requires the designers to provide a satisfying definition

within the context of the game they create.

 

The point expressed suggested that 'gear' will attract those who were 'on the fence'.

 

I suggest that perhaps, perhaps, 'gear' is a shortcut, thrown in where quality game design,

design that makes players feel rewarded through progressing their skills as players, would be better.

 

Regardless of the format - be it chess, Street Fighter, Go, misc MMORPG.

 

::

 

Gear is a cheap (in terms of labour/dev cost) way of attracting customers - generating revenue.

 

Designing quality systems that reward effective play is hard - takes time - costs much more money.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Scudmungus

[FourTwent]

Let me give a quick background of myself before I really delve into it. I played WoW back in the day when there weren't any battlegrounds, when TM and SS were where all the PvP happened. Then came the BM/HWL grind. I got two druids to rank 12(one on each faction), but didn't get any farther because I had RL obligations. In BC, I played a feral druid in arenas. Feral druids were not very good back then, but I managed to grab duelist in the first two seasons, then gladiator in the last two of BC. WoTLK came out, and I facerolled my way to glad on a DK, and got 2600 on a rogue. When rated warzones came out, I got "Hero of the Alliance" on two characters, then quit the game. In Aion I got full Fenris gear, and a +10 bow. I also was one of the first Asmodean Generals. In Rift I had two prestige 5 characters.

 

Anyway, back to SWTOR. I logged on today, only to log off after five minutes of sitting in the fleet. It baffled me. I used to come home and be excited to log on and play, especially on Tuesdays. I was confused, and slightly worried. So I sat in my chair and tried to figure out what was wrong. I slowly began to piece it together. There was literally nothing that I could do that would matter. I could continue the BM grind on my alt, but when the next patch comes out, I'll get better gear without requiring the time invested to reach rank 70. I thought about doing warzones on my main, but again, there's no point. I am already valor 65, and there's no reason to go above that. You can't mount in warzones, and Ilum is virtually obsolete now. Even if they do come out with new valor rank mounts, when would I get to show it off? When I'm AFK in the fleet?

 

I completed the operations the week they came out, and I have no gear left to farm from them. I can't min/max my gear and rotation like I would on other games, because there's no damage meter or training dummies to sit on. I have 4 million credits, so I don't need to farm mats and craft items to sell. I guess I could make another PvP video, but I would honestly rather play MW3 right now.

 

I'm not upset because everyone is going to be on an even playing field for rated warzones. I'm not upset because I have a chance to get beat by players who others refer to as "scrubs." I'm all for even playing fields. I just see no point in rated warzones. There's no progression at all. I like having a rating to aim for knowing that I will get a new piece of gear that is a slight upgrade from what I have. From my understanding, the ratings will give us recolored PvP gear and mounts. I've already stated my opinion on the mounts. The PvP gear however, is apparently going to be fully Remodable next patch. I don't care for my current sets of PvP gear, I would much rather mix and match orange pieces of gear that are world drops/craft able. So there's no real intensive for me to play rated warzones. I honestly don't know what to do right now. I really enjoyed playing SWTOR, so I don't know what is wrong with me. I just have no desire to play, and it makes me sad.

 

I would like to reiterate one more time. I am not afraid of everyone receiving equal gear levels. At the ratings that I play at, the people that I am against are not at that rating because they have the best gear, they are there because they are very, very good. I have had people in my rated battleground groups mostly using the previous season's gear, and we still got the top .5%. Hell, I hit gladiator range in 3s with an alt paladin healer within the first few weeks, in literally 3/4 the blue PvP set. I guess what I am trying to say is... If you are that good, the gear isn't going to matter as much as everyone is making it seem like.

 

 

Holy ****. I didn't realize I wrote that much... I guess I was really motivated.

 

roll an alt?

 

so many of these 'i win swtor' posts lately. . .

[Niaoru]

roll an alt?

 

so many of these 'i win swtor' posts lately. . .

 

I did, and it's already near BM range.

[nschlan]

roll an alt?

 

so many of these 'i win swtor' posts lately. . .

 

You don't read much huh? Clearly says he has several alts and doesn't see the point. Alts in this game are no different from in WoW. Just another long grind session.