PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Pekish]

it seems the NO is triumphing....

 

 

I vote... NO

[ferroz]

They don't make sense from a feedback standpoint as it is impossible for your character to accurately assess and compile all the combat going on around them.

No, You can certainly assess and compile it just as well as you could in muds.

[ferroz]

You do realize a lot of people asked for non shared logs and the system they are implementing makes no sense if you log everything around you. That and being called personal.

Can you quote where they talk about the downloadable detailed combat logs being called personal?

 

There is a lot of evidence to support it being player only and none to support otherwise.

feel free to post it, if so. It's not like I have some sort of stake in this... I'm just interested in being accurate about what they have and have not said.

[ferroz]

If the logs don't show other people's performance then it's pretty much useless. What good is data on me if there's nothing to compare it to?

Yeah, if the logs lack the full context, it's not really all that useful; it's going to be an issue for theorycrafters, who need that sort of data granularity.

[SootyTX]

If the logs don't show other people's performance then it's pretty much useless. What good is data on me if there's nothing to compare it to?

 

 

You compare it to yourself - that's the whole point. You log a fight, switch a mod around or tweak your build a bit then try again and see how you do the second time.

 

In fact, that's the only really valid comparison possible - you know what changed, you know what stayed the same and can therefore, in theory if you have half an ounce of common sense, figure out whether the change was good or bad and how it might lead to other changes.

 

Alternatively, you think you are perfect already and just want to "prove" how you are better than someone else.....

[TheDoctre]

If your doing less dps than the tank he has a legitimate reason to complain , you mistake complaining for griefing . Its not hard to obtain gear in wow , not hard at all , its even harder to do less damage than the tank . The older I get I find the most valuable asset is time , its not fair to the ones that put in the work to have there time wasted by the ones that didn't / don't care .

 

So if you suck and you get called out on it , its now considered griefing , unbelievable .

 

If your most valuable asset is time and you want to not have your time wasted you don't need to be PUG-ing. You need to find like-minded people like say, in your guild, that also look at things the way you do and lo and behold you share the same play style and can share your combat logs and "help" each other out.

 

To the OP, I tried to vote, but it said I already had (odd that). Given your two options, however, I would vote no because you didn't have the third option of traditional combat logs for in-guild use only. I'm all for that as in all my time in WoW I hated that stupid DPS meter. Even when I was number one and two in PUGs. PUGs with DPS meters engender some of the worst behavior I've seen in MMOs (and I've been playing since EQ). I was refreshed to find it not implemented that way here.

 

Having said that, do I miss it for myself? Yes, I'd like to know that my rotation/prioritization is optimal and not having that info currently means I may not be playing at my best. With this system I'll be able to see that. However, I don't feel that 3/7 other people I've never met before need to see those numbers off the bat (I didn't put a 15 in there because I personally wouldn't PUG a 16-man without having seen it first). As a compromise, if there was a way to turn sharing of combat statistics on with people in your friends list, I could see that since you aren't going to friend all the random strangers you meet in game and it gives that list something to do besides let you know when people log on and off and it still gives you the ability to help them.

[RealAeiouy]

Because damage numbers may actually obey specific rules, where there are certain discrete values that are possible and all other values aren't possible.

 

in EQ, for example, there was a min damage, and a max damage, and X number of values between for any particular ability. Those values were all calculable, so if you tampered with some of your numbers, it was easily detected.

 

Whether something like that can be done in TOR is yet to be determined.

 

edit: other detection methods, off the top of my head:

 

• abilities that aren't possible due to violating cooldowns or the gcd (ie, trying to add abilities)
  
• damage that would require stats that aren't possible in game (simply going in and find/replacing all values to increase them across the board in a way that works with the damage formulas correctly.
  
• damage parses that are "too perfect" to actually be done by a human.
  

 

optimally, you'd wind up with some sort of "tampering confidence level" for each parse. if a parse was ever determined to be tampered with, that would tank your parsescore.

 

Again trivially easy to match it to certain gearsets.

 

I hope people go around bullying strangers demanding their logs, it will be funny. Again though it will be trivially easy to fake.

[ferroz]

You compare it to yourself - that's the whole point. You log a fight, switch a mod around or tweak your build a bit then try again and see how you do the second time.

No, that's actually really inaccurate. Things like op composition or tactics changing mean that even the same boss isn't actually a valid comparison.

 

If you know the full context, you can account for those changes as well. You can even get some idea about the effect of changes without having to be on the exact same boss fight.

[ferroz]

Again trivially easy to match it to certain gearsets.

 

I hope people go around bullying strangers demanding their logs, it will be funny. Again though it will be trivially easy to fake.

I don't think you understand what the word "trivial" means. Faking those requires a really good understanding of theorycraft.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done... but it's certainly not trivial.

[Englisheart]

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

Been saying this kind of thing for months.../agree

[veyl]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

It already is. (+story and laser beams)

[RealAeiouy]

No, You can certainly assess and compile it just as well as you could in muds.

 

Since you have all sorts of visual feedback you are supposed to be looking at that makes no sense. Again from a gameplay feedback perspective you can't justify a character being able to precisely log everyone around them.

 

There is plenty of visual feedback you should use to assess how things are going. That is where the devs rightfully want to keep the focus.

 

Again combat logs exist because eq was a mud that added graphics on top. There was no specific design reason for a global combat log as they apply to 3d mmogs. Wow and others copied it but again not with any real thought. I appreciate the devs here realizing it doesn't real make sense to have something like that in game.

 

Just wanting something because it existed before but not understanding that it does not exist for any good reason can help people understand better.

[Houd]

Why wouldn't everyone want combat log and dps meters? Right now, as a DPS you have 0 idea what your are doing. You can only have a feeling of what feels optimal, what spec you feel is doing the best dps for you. As a DPS why wouldn't you want to do the best dps? That is the whole purpose of your existance?

 

It's fine that some people do not wish to use dpsmeters, THEN DONT. But don't ruin it for the rest of us who actually cares what we are doing. It's a extremely important tool in ANY MMO. And it's amazing swtor still lacks them.

 

And to end my post. Are you going to tell your boss, that you do not want him to evalute your performance at work, because YOU think it's fine that you are only doing half the work of anyone else at your company? And it's unfair that you are getting called out on it? Or even, that your boss tries to help you improve your performance, oh lord the inhumanity.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Houd

[Rebeldad]

Why wouldn't everyone want combat log and dps meters? Right now, as a DPS you have 0 idea what your are doing. You can only have a feeling of what feels optimal, what spec you feel is doing the best dps for you. As a DPS why wouldn't you want to do the best dps? That is the whole purpose of your existance?

 

It's fine that some people do not wish to use dpsmeters, THEN DONT. But don't ruin it for the rest of us who actually cares what we are doing. It's a extremely important tool in ANY MMO. And it's amazing swtor still lacks them.

 

And to end my post. Are you going to tell your boss, that you do not want him to evalute your performance at work, because YOU think it's fine that you are only doing half the work of anyone else at your company? And it's unfair that you are getting called out on it? Or even, that your boss tries to help you improve your performance, oh lord the inhumanity.

 

cool story bro.

 

I have a dps and a buddy in the guild has same class dps. We play and compare to figure out what works. What I am saying is you seem to need a crutch to help you learn to play, I suggest you get some friends and actually play and then Talk. I dont need a piece of software to tell me if I am doing the job right or not.

[BCBull]

this is so silly. I wish BioWare would just make a post saying that "Your" was not intended to be taken as "JUST your combat log"

 

he was talking live in front of 20k people ffs.

Edited March 7, 2012 by BCBull

[Warjhinn]

Because WoW invented combat logs and is the only game that has them? Please read my entire post.

 

 

 

 

Dude, I am not talking about addons. Please read the OP.

 

 

 

DUDE, I read the whole post. Personal combat logs good. I vote no to any other form, variation, or similar tool that would allow dps meters etc for other people to see.

[Pekish]

Did the OP count the NO and the YES yet?

[Taroen]

cool story bro.

 

I have a dps and a buddy in the guild has same class dps. We play and compare to figure out what works. What I am saying is you seem to need a crutch to help you learn to play, I suggest you get some friends and actually play and then Talk. I dont need a piece of software to tell me if I am doing the job right or not.

 

And you and your buddy are just peein' into the wind because neither of you has any real data to figure out anything. Guesswork isn't skill. You're not super awesome hardcore because you don't use metrics. Data is not a crutch.

 

People like you don't want to see the data because you're probably NOT doing the job right.

 

Cool story bro.

[hmcnasty]

This is very sad. I'm not sure what kind of significant emotional event, that Comabt Logs, DPS meters, Cross Server LFG, Add Ons and Macros have caused all you... but let me say I'm sorry.

 

I read your debates back and forth, and I still can not understand your mind set on any of this. The first thing you people say is "We dont want the game to be like WoW" thats garbage.. half of you "new breed" gamers were and still are the reason why its in its current state.

 

I really think you people who don't want Comabt Logs or DPS Meters, or a Cross Server LFG, should really use those tools to improve your game play. I challenge you to sit down and read the forums on optimal ways to play your character. You pay to play the game, why do it bad? If someone makes a comment to you about your performance in a Cross Server group you joined up, ask your self.. is the point valid? I'm tracking not everyone uses or will use tact.. but damn... if your doing bad.. why not fix it. Who wants to wait for hours to find a group? I did it back in EQ and in WoW prior to the LFG tool, it was terrible and a waste of time. Why would you not want to que qucikly and go about your business? I got it, the community suffers from this. It sure does, but you people changed the rules in MMOs when the games went mainstream and catered to the casual player, and BTW casual players dont want to log in just to wait 3 hours to get a group. So what do you people want?

 

I can honestly say that I can count the times on one hand that somone spamed a DPS meter or Ninja'd something or been rude to me in a random LFG. It just doesnt happen like you people make it seem.

 

To sum up everything, blame yourself and use the tools you hate to improve your gameplay and you will will be fine.. i promise

[Monfort]

Last night in WoW:

 

Heroic Yorsajj 10 man, I'm healing group 2 during purple ooze phase, one of my guys blows up. I was sure that grid showed him having a three stack (not a 4) right before I healed him, and I wondered if the other healer cast a heal on him (he was low health). Check recount, he had no heals from the other healer (or anyone else). I realized it must have been me, and made damn sure to watch it next time, specifically to give time for grid to update before healing again.

 

Combat logs are pretty useful.

 

Another example: 2 of our healers have dps offspecs, and we both gear them up a bit. Recount tells us that I should be the one to dps on heroic ultraxxion.

 

If you've had a bad experience, and been booted for low dps, then either the guy who booted you was a jerk, or, possibly, your dps was very low, and you needed to do some reading about how to improve it. I really don't understand the attitude of wanting to stay under the radar with poor performance. I'm not an elitist, and I like to give people chances to improve and help them to do so, but this preference of ignorance makes no sense to me. Why be in the dark about how you're doing?

 

Also, I like to compete with others (healers or dps). It makes the fights more fun for me. I don't ignore my task to boost myself on the meters, but when I can, I try to win over the others in my group. It's just friendly competition.

 

edit: another example from last night: on heroic zon'ozz' black phase, I go from about 80% health to dead instantly. I'm like, what the hell was that? Check recount, the tentacle spat at me, which it only does when not being tanked. Tank says he'll make sure to be in melee with it the entire phase next time.

 

These examples are all from last night about the usefulness of combat logs (and a good parser).

 

This is exactly how I don't ever want to play a game. I play games for fun not to run a spreadsheet and work at it. It's kinda odd that games have become like a second career to some players. Hope they enjoy it but to me it defeats the purpose. I play computer games to relax and unwind. I think Bioware is doing the right thing in the way they are implementing combat logs. Combat logs in WOW tend to be just one more epeen measuring stick.

[RealAeiouy]

this is so silly. I wish BioWare would just make a post saying that "Your" was not intended to be taken as "JUST your combat log"

 

he was talking live in front of 20k people ffs.

 

Your PERSONAL combat log where it makes no sense to do it the way they are doing it is just that. People seem to be in denial.

[Cancrizans]

I vote no simply because I know the effect it has on people, and I also realize that there is far more that is lost than is gained with such systems.

 

If people bothered to put some effort into working together, they would accomplish so much more than any analysis of combat output could ever create. Besides the fact that shared logs have had an irrefutable and extremely divisive effect on MMO communities, far fewer people want to participate because a certain aggressive group has tried to con everyone that what they are doing takes exceptional skill and intelligence. It just doesn't. It takes communication and cooperation.

 

I am tired of the entire genre being ruined so a few people of obviously limited life experience can crow about how they surmounted a relatively simple challenge, and use it to berate thousands of other people who are more than likely just as capable of surmounting the same challenge, except for the fact that they have been intimidated by a bunch of people who have so little else to satisfy them that they actually enjoy camping mailboxes with rare mounts and standing in the same place in a capital city wearing the newest raid gear.

[Cancrizans]

This is very sad. I'm not sure what kind of significant emotional event, that Comabt Logs, DPS meters, Cross Server LFG, Add Ons and Macros have caused all you... but let me say I'm sorry.

 

I read your debates back and forth, and I still can not understand your mind set on any of this. The first thing you people say is "We dont want the game to be like WoW" thats garbage.. half of you "new breed" gamers were and still are the reason why its in its current state.

 

I really think you people who don't want Comabt Logs or DPS Meters, or a Cross Server LFG, should really use those tools to improve your game play. I challenge you to sit down and read the forums on optimal ways to play your character. You pay to play the game, why do it bad? If someone makes a comment to you about your performance in a Cross Server group you joined up, ask your self.. is the point valid? I'm tracking not everyone uses or will use tact.. but damn... if your doing bad.. why not fix it. Who wants to wait for hours to find a group? I did it back in EQ and in WoW prior to the LFG tool, it was terrible and a waste of time. Why would you not want to que qucikly and go about your business? I got it, the community suffers from this. It sure does, but you people changed the rules in MMOs when the games went mainstream and catered to the casual player, and BTW casual players dont want to log in just to wait 3 hours to get a group. So what do you people want?

 

I can honestly say that I can count the times on one hand that somone spamed a DPS meter or Ninja'd something or been rude to me in a random LFG. It just doesnt happen like you people make it seem.

 

To sum up everything, blame yourself and use the tools you hate to improve your gameplay and you will will be fine.. i promise

 

 

 

Yayaya. Complete nonsense. I raided 40 mans in WoW and rarely came below 5th in DPS. I just understand how people react to DPS meters and think these games would be a LOT better off without them.

[Monfort]

Yayaya. Complete nonsense. I raided 40 mans in WoW and rarely came below 5th in DPS. I just understand how people react to DPS meters and think these games would be a LOT better off without them.

 

Apparently you don't understand how people in SWTOR feel about them since so far the vote is 2 to 1 against having them in the game.

[prideaux]

WANT! 1,000,000 x WANT!

 

I am not a huge raider or feel the need to prove myself against the DPS of others but i hate this new move in gaming to hide away the numbers and combats logs. The want to see the damaging im doing AND the mobs against me, i want to see when a certain proc activates, i want to see (in those busy places like groups/raids) if my attacks are connecting or resisting etc.

 

Sure most of these things are shown on screen during the fight but alas due to the mechanics of the game (no autoattacks, if your not spamming a button your doing nothing) if your not looking at the hotbars, your looking at groups health bars or incoming ads so cant always see the numbers flying or a certain skills animation attivates... thats why combats logs are great. At the end of a fight you can scroll back and see what was working and what wasnt.

 

Like as a Jedi Sentinel there is one spell that i keep using and i swear it does nothing, i see its animation but dont see it actually doing damage... if i had a log i would have an answer etc

 

Combat logs arent all about the MIN/MAXers of the world!