PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Loendar]

Wrong. Being able to figure it out before the encounter makes you good at math. Being able to then execute it, accounting for changes presented by the encounter and your fellow players, makes you a good player. You don't play in a vacuum in MMOs. If you want the most out of your character, then you need to understand what the other people are doing as well. The marauder just died. Did that aoe one shot him, or did I not notice he took some damage prior to the hit? In a situation like that, the healer needs to see the OTHER person's logs.

 

 

Sure - you have to execute a strategy with a few other people who also have to perform. That's playing the game and should be encouraged.

 

Taking all the information from an encounter that is handed to you while you stand there, not bothering to play because you are gathering stats, isn't playing. And don't try to pretend that doesn't happen. There are many guilds/raids that go into a new encounter the first few times not planning to win (or even really try) but simply to gather what the mob does, when and how often so they can then 'figure out' the encounter. I've been in those raids.

 

And you keep glossing over the fact that you ARE getting what you want in this implementation. They are telling you these things - just not for everyone in your group unless they send the log to you.

[ferroz]

I agree with everything here.

 

EverQuest was fun until the devs caved. Then there were no unique specs. There was no mystery anymore. People used the same moves in the same sequence and wore the same gear. Where once you would see a particular person who was seemingly an unstoppable juggernaut you would instead see someone going:

 

"Oh yeah, he's wearing this, this, and this, and is using this, this, and this ability in this, this, this, and this sequence."

 

I don't want to group with people who are "all about the numbers" and who will expect me to optimize.

 

I do optimize, but I do it the old fashioned way, I watch, I observe, and I try new things out.

Ok... so I don't really believe that you played everquest based on these comments.

 

1. There weren't specs in EQ. After a few expansions (in the 3rd expansion) they added AA exp... but that's not the same thing as a spec. You couldn't respec, except for the couple (like 2 or 3 times in 6 years? ) of times that they reset everyone.

 

2. There weren't "moves" in EQ ( until the game had been around for 5 or 6 years). For melee:

• Monks had a damage ability and it was "use one of the abiltiies" because they all shared the same cooldown.
  
• Rogues had backstab and that was it.
  
• Warriors and rangers had kick.
  
• Large races had slam.
  

All of these people used those abilities on cooldown. There was no sequences of abilities. you just turned on autoattack and spammed your extra damage button on cooldown. If you had spells (rangers sk beastlords and paladins) you might or might not mix them in.

 

sure, there are a couple of other abilities (LoH, HT, mend etc) that had long cooldowns... those weren't something that you used in a sequence.

 

Casters had spells; it wasn't a rotation, or sequence. You had a priority to keep up X, Y, Z abiltiies, or you just spammed your best nuke.

 

healers cast mostly the same heal; whatever was most mana efficient. Soemtiems you'd use a different heal for emergencies, or to off heal someone who wasn't the tank.

 

bards twisted the 3 or 4 songs that were relevant for that fight, depending on how good they were. They actually did have a sequence, but it's not like there was an optimal one: different situations had different optimal sequences.

 

3. Very early on people would judge you by your gear; pre-kunark that is. You could often tell what people were wearing just by lookign at them, without inspecting (until they added dyes in LoY).

 

4. EQ had a combat log ... people were parsing damage before the first expansion.

[Vydor_HC]

I guess it's too much to ask for something that is easy to use.

Heck I'd be happy with in game personal only metrics... and if someone really want's to get crazy about it, you can send them a screen shot.

Out of game metrics is a seriously clunky way to do things, and makes it very difficult for users. Please put yourself into anothers shoes. If something you liked to use frequently required you to alt-tab out every time you wanted to use it... would you consider that to be a good implimentation? There could be a workaround if mods were available, but they are not.

Also, why would it be any skin off your back if the metric was available in game... (and not shareable?) That's my main beef with it as it stands. I can just punch in chat if I'm grouping with guildies... and if someone calls BS, I have printscreen.

 

Nah man, you can ask all you want. That's the point of the forums and conversation. Bioware has been assessing this since the start and have made a decision, in part based on what the players have been telling them.

 

Trust me, I know exactly how you feel on the issue in not getting it the way you want it. I've seen issues like this go against my desires time and time again in MMOs. While I can empathize with your plight of not having what you want, I still feel Bioware is doing the correct thing.

 

Their plans on logs are a perfect good way to go about meeting as many needs as possible while keeping the game as friendly as possible.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Blotter]

If you actually understand your character, read up on the best stats and rotations then you shouldn't be embarrassed about combat logs being in game.

 

If you suck and just wanna look at how cool your guy looks as he's swinging his light saber, and have the guild wonder what's going on, while you wipe and wipe again and again, then I can see why you wouldn't want combat logs.

 

Two points:

 

1. If you actually understand your character etc etc...THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO PEAK BEYOND THE 4TH WALL INTO THE GAME'S UNDERLYING MECHANICS TO EXECUTE THE BOSS STRATS.

 

2. You should be wiping over and over again. Nobody should be able to go in and use a real time combat log or other add-on crutch to get it right the first time. nro shoudl they be able to use them to get it right the second or third time. If you can't learn to do it right by actually playing the game, then you need to L2P. Plain and simple. If you need something other than actually playing the game to help you get it right, then you don't know how to play, haven't learned how to play, and you suck. Plain and simple. Furthermore, if you are so dependent upon these crutches that let you peak behind the curtain because you don't have the patience to learn by trial and error like every other video game out there that doesn't give yuo that kind of info....epic games throughout history in which you died repeatedly and mercilessly until you learned how not to suck...then you aren't "hardcore" and you aren't a "gamer." Period.

 

That being said, you're being given the ability to look over the encounters afterwards to understand what went wrong and plan for the next attempt. That's what proponents of combat logs claimed they were needed for and that is what they received. is it in real tim during the bos encounter? No. Why? Privacy concerns and concerns about community. that's the compromise.

[DizzD]

Please give us a REAL in game combat log with the ability to filter different damage types in a separate chat window.

 

Simply writing personal combat info to the txt log and requiring cut/paste from a third party log parser is a pretty crappy consolation. Isn't BW capable of more?

[Snibb]

Also, people who like logs/dps meters realize that DPS isn't everything... it's just one piece of the puzzle. The people who think DPS is everything are a vocal minority, and they're ignorant. These are the people you're worried about... so don't play with them.

[ferroz]

LOL..... yes, the chat channel is where the grief based communication takes place. HOWEVER, what enables them to grief is their ability to do so is dependent on them having logged what the person was doing.

No, people are griefed every day without logs... what allows them to be griefed is the chat system, not the logs.

 

Chat system actually enable people to be griefed. They're used to do so by people, even outside of the context of MMO gaming.

 

Combat logs don't actually do anything to enable someone to be griefed; it's a log file sitting on my computer. It doesn't do anything, it just sits there minding it's own business. I can use it (by reading it) all I want, and it's never possible to grief someone by doing so.

 

The game would not be much without in game chat. For that, the pros of having a chat tool far out weigh the cons. I cannot believe people are actually trying to link the two. With group public logs, it's the opposite, the cons weigh the pros. Which is why Bioware is delivering the logs as they proposed.

The point is that whether the pros outweigh the cons or vice-versa is a mattter of opinion. I 'd say that in both cases, the pros outweigh the cons... and that the chat system actually has more cons than the log, since it is something that can actually be used to grief people. Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[MasterKayote]

I completely disagree. People will still give you a hard time if you stink. DPS meters/combat logs can be used as a numeric representation, but there are other ways to tell. The paddle still exists without the meter.

 

Other ways to tell you stink;

-As a dps, you constantly pull aggro from mobs the tank isn't attacking.

-As a dps, whatever points you use for skills (forcepower, ammo, etc) always stays full.

-As anyone, you stand in any sort of damage aura.

-As a tank, you pull more than you can handle, and die within seconds.

-As a tank, you don't use taunts.

-As a healer, you let the tank die, and the tank is doing what he's supposed to be doing.

-As a healer, you put up a heal over time before the battle starts and wonder why all the mobs attack you when the tank pulls.

 

Feel free to add to the list, as it's just a few examples. Keep in mind that skills/spells have unique animations, so other players can see if you are doing things you shouldn't, or not doing things you should. Some will be polite about it, but the jerks are always going to be jerks regardless.

 

The "jerks will be jerks" argument is getting old already. Just because "jerks will be jerks" doesnt mean you blindly give them something to get better at it. You either dont release it or restrict it so as to make it difficult or prevent the jerks from using it. Which is exactly whats being done.

 

They also, as someone else just said, want people to play the game not the mechanics. And damnit I couldnt agree more! For some stupid reason, MMO's have turned into this analytical game where some people just need to know everything about it otherwise you "cant be good at it" ... BULL! Do you need that for any other game? Not once have I ever heard anyone complain about "no DPS meters in God of War ... or how they can figure out which weapon to use against this boss, which moves, ... yadda yadda yadda. They play the game, try different methods until they win ... same can be done here, and its what Bioware wants. Just because its an RPG doesnt make it any different, its a computer program, its all numbers under the pretty graphics. Just like GoW, ME, FF, Witcher, theyre not necessary! Same goes for SWTOR (as proven every time a guild finishes a hard mode), nor was is it ever needed in WoW. Show me a guild that beats a seemingly unbeatable boss when no one else could after months of trying and figuring out new strategies, flawless teamwork, and persistence and ill show you a truly hardcore guild. Until then, theyre just good number crunchers.

 

Mind you, I dont care how you decide to spend your time playing. You want to number crunch, by all means knock yourself out. However claiming its actually necessary is b/s. Trying to bring in a tool thats only going to make my experience deteriorate so that you can enjoy your unnecessary number crunching ... no. Just no. Its not even about that anymore ... youre getting that soon. These tears are all abotu convenience now.

[Vydor_HC]

The point is that whether the pros outweigh the cons or vice-versa is a mattter of opinion. I 'd say that in both cases, the pros outweigh the cons... and that the chat system actually has more cons than the log, since it is something that can actually be used to grief people.

 

Of course it's a matter of opinion, which is why I added the phrase that Bioware has decidied to do it the way they decided because they've heard all the opinions and have made a choice on the matter. You're perfectly within your rights to believe your way is the best, Bioware for the time being does not.

 

And on a side, it boggles my mind that you think the cons of chat are greater then its pros. I really don't know how to address that other than, well...I have nothing.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Snibb]

Nah man, you can ask all you want. That's the point of the forums and conversation. Bioware has been assessing this since the start and have made a decision, in part based on what the players have been telling them.

 

Trust me, I know exactly how you feel on the issue in not getting it the way you want it. I've seen issues like this go against my desires time and time again in MMOs. While I can empathize with your plight of not having what you want, I still feel Bioware is doing the correct thing.

 

Their plans on logs are a perfect good way to go about meeting as many needs as possible while keeping the game as friendly as possible.

 

Your point of view is refreshing. Many on this forum chastize you for even asking and will fight you tooth and nail and tell you your personal reasons are wrong.

You do have to agree, that a text file outside the game is sort of a crappy way to implement this though right? And it's unnecessary.

For instance, if I'm testing different rotations (I like to do my own trial and error stuff) for different situations, does it really matter to those who don't want a meter if I have to retrieve and crunch my own data by alt tabbing, or if I have it at my fingertips in game (and it's private?) You can't see mine, I can't see yours, it's not even an option.

I think that's quite a compromize... (looks at Blotter. )

[ferroz]

No chat system = no MMORPG.

No, they could make all interactions between players something that you picked from a menu, which didn't allow enough options to grief someone and still have an MMORPG

 

Like I said, I still think the chat system has more pros than cons... but it's an actual thing tat can be used for griefing, unlike a combat log which cannot be used to grief someone.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[Drewser]

Your point of view is refreshing. Many on this forum chastize you for even asking and will fight you tooth and nail and tell you your personal reasons are wrong.

You do have to agree, that a text file outside the game is sort of a crappy way to implement this though right? And it's unnecessary.

For instance, if I'm testing different rotations (I like to do my own trial and error stuff) for different situations, does it really matter to those who don't want a meter if I have to retrieve and crunch my own data by alt tabbing, or if I have it at my fingertips in game (and it's private?) You can't see mine, I can't see yours, it's not even an option.

I think that's quite a compromize... (looks at Blotter. )

 

We don't know what is going to be displayed in the chat log in 1.2 so there may be something in game that gives you info if you are just in your ship working on the training dummy.

[ferroz]

And on a side, it boggles my mind that you think the cons of chat are greater then its pros. I really don't know how to address that other than, well...I have nothing.

Well, you could always read what I actually said...

[Loendar]

MMOs are based on mathematics covered in the aesthetics of its platform. Optimization of your character based on mathematics will in fact allow you perform better. Even if you play the game perfectly, if you're more educated then the next, your performance will display as such.

 

Nevertheless, I think this is an excellent point defending the exclusion of combat logs. I am adding this to the OP. It does kind of turn the game into a math game, but I like knowing I am optimized. There are a lot of us that actually enjoy solving these math problems and theory crafting. I understand what you are saying, but if we choose to play this way, why shouldn't we be allowed to?

 

But you are getting the numbers. Not those of everyone around you without their consent and, admittedly, not is an easy to digest format... but you are getting them.

 

And I appreciate your response on this one. I had pretty much given up hope that there would ever be any common understanding.

[Vydor_HC]

Your point of view is refreshing. Many on this forum chastize you for even asking and will fight you tooth and nail and tell you your personal reasons are wrong.

You do have to agree, that a text file outside the game is sort of a crappy way to implement this though right? And it's unnecessary.

For instance, if I'm testing different rotations (I like to do my own trial and error stuff) for different situations, does it really matter to those who don't want a meter if I have to retrieve and crunch my own data by alt tabbing, or if I have it at my fingertips in game (and it's private?) You can't see mine, I can't see yours, it's not even an option.

I think that's quite a compromize... (looks at Blotter. )

 

First, thanks for the compliment.

 

As to the out of game logs, I'm not sure exactly how they are going to implement it, but in other games I've played with logs and meters done that way it's not been a big deal. The parsers can be quite sophisticated, smooth and seamless with the game. Plus I have total control of how the data is then displayed and metered and I get far more useful information that is tuned to the way I want to see it.

 

On the fly in game is nice, if done right...but can also be a crutch in my view and make the game a bit less challenging. That's how I see it.

 

And I've never once ever asked to see the data of how another player is doing in the game. It's just not me and my play style nor the people I play with. Not to say I don't understand why people do want to see it.

[ferroz]

We don't know what is going to be displayed in the chat log in 1.2 so there may be something in game that gives you info if you are just in your ship working on the training dummy.

personally, I'd rather see people continue to ask for what they want than wait until it comes out and complain that it's not what they want. I'd imagine that BW would as well.

[Snibb]

The "jerks will be jerks" argument is getting old already.

 

They also, as someone else just said, want people to play the game not the mechanics. And damnit I couldnt agree more! ...

 

Mind you, I dont care how you decide to spend your time playing. You want to number crunch, by all means knock yourself out....

 

The arguement may be getting old to you, but it is a true statement is it not?

 

And the two next statements are contradictory... I do feel that people are telling me how I should play. Both sides can be happy here, and I've stated how in other posts.

 

And I also question people who say the way it will be implemented is good enough when they have no plans of using it, or don't like using logs/meters in general. How would you know?

[Drewser]

No, they could make all interactions between players something that you picked from a menu, which didn't allow enough options to grief someone and still have an MMORPG

 

 

Not if they want any players. It surprises me you would even try to go down this line of thought in defense of a combat log.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Drewser

[Vydor_HC]

Well, you could always read what I actually said...

 

Which had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. I have no care to speak to your reply to me when you do not care to read what I say in the first place.

 

Edit: You have a annoying habit of doing that and if you keep it up, I'm gonna just ignore anything you write to me.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[ferroz]

Just stop. You lose any credibility you may have had when you take that stance.

You underlined ""Like I said, I still think the chat system has more pros than cons" ... How does taking that stance lose any credibility?

 

No one is going to play an MMO without chat.

Sure they would; as many as some of the games that have chat systems? I don't know, it really depends on how engaging the gameplay is.

[Punnkin]

Which had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. I have no care to speak to your reply to me when you do not care to read what I say in the first place.

 

Edit: You have a annoying habit of doing that and if you keep it up, I'm gonna just ignore anything you write to me.

 

Actually, he said that the PROS of chat DO outweigh the cons, and you misread and attacked him for saying the opposite, which he did not. So I think he was right.

[Vydor_HC]

Actually, he said that the PROS of chat DO outweigh the cons, and you misread and attacked him for saying the opposite, which he did not. So I think he was right.

 

No, he was making a strawman argument against something I never said. I knew exactly what he was talking about, but since it was not in context with the ongoing conversion that he just jumped in to with a strawman, I have no reason to entertain his comments.

[Drewser]

You underlined ""Like I said, I still think the chat system has more pros than cons" ... How does taking that stance lose any credibility?

 

Sure they would; as many as some of the games that have chat systems? I don't know, it really depends on how engaging the gameplay is.

 

I underlined the wrong part of your statement.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Drewser

[ferroz]

Which had absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. I have no care to speak to your reply to me when you do not care to read what I say in the first place. Edit: You have a annoying habit of doing that and if you keep it up, I'm gonna just ignore anything you write to me.

What the hell are you talking about? You were boggling at the notion that I thought that the chat system had more cons than pros... that's not what I said.... that's the opposite of what I said.

 

I read the rest of what you said...You were agreeing with me that it's as a matter of opinion, so there really wasn't any reason to comment on it... I just responded to the part where you had clearly misread what I posted...

[ferroz]

No, he was making a strawman argument against something I never said. I knew exactly what he was talking about, but since it was not in context with the ongoing conversion that he just jumped in to with a strawman, I have no reason to entertain his comments.

... what? /boggle

 

I really think that you've just misread something...I've gone back several posts and I have no idea what you think I've strawmanned. Punnkin has it right.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz