PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[GalacticKegger]

And whose fault is that? When you willingly group with 4 other people (3 in this case) and you're bringing your crappy gear, crappy build, and have no solid rotation down, you are indeed making the gameplay experience worse for all the other players. The argument that "it's a game and I can play it however I want" simply doesn't fly here because you are playing a multiplayer game. You have to accept the consequences of gimping your party and wasting other people's time.

 

How selfish can you get?

So we should expect that anyone who shows up must already be geared and have the FP on farm? And anyone else is just a gimping liability? Where does one's learning curve start? Or is that an "undesirable" percentage of the multiplayer populous to be trampled asunder and ignored? Hope you aren't in favor of a multiserver LFG tool, because if it happened that's exactly what you'd get. Oh yeah, vote to kick ... nothing says talk to the preening hand like an easy buttton. Edited March 8, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Dayln]

Neither does a program planning your chess moves for you

 

certainly does not make you any kind of Chess master, nor someone anyone should go to for advice, or even listen to on the subject.

[Elysith]

..

I want to tailor my gameplay experience in the most efficient way possible. You're obviously not interested in that goal. I am. That's the difference between us.

 

Yes and that's fine by me. I have nothing against difference.

 

However because what you want in the game is different than what I want, does not mean that you are right and that I'm wrong as your previous post suggested, even up to saying that people who are not interested in combat logs are the same who would have BBQ Galileo. xD

We are talking about a game and combat logs, not about occultism, not about science that can affect people lives.

 

And I was also just pointing I think there is not so many peoples against combat logs as you seem to think, just that there is more people against forced public game logs.

 

With private or consensually shared combat logs, you can run your analysis and finely tune your combat behavior. And I will be sincerely happy for you if SWTOR implements such combat logs in a comfortable way.

 

One of my character is a knight, I already know without the need of combat logs, that the current build I'm using on it is not really efficient and already know what I could do differently to improve its efficiency a lot.

However I do enjoy more the look and feel of this knight build even perfectly knowing its not the best and I'm going to keep it that way as long as I have fun with it

Obviously I won't use this character in a group context where it is expected of me to be more efficient. That's common courtesy, I'm not going to be a weight on purpose.

This last paragraph was just a real example that efficiency in a MMO does not necessarily means fun.

 

For you it does. For me it does not (at least not in SWTOR case). We are both paying for SWTOR. We are both players. And you are as right to want to master your builds and tactics as I'm as right to simply enjoy the game without worrying about perfectly maximizing the efficiency of my characters. We can share the same game world as long as we do not consider each of our way, the only right way for everyone to enjoy the game.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Elysith

[Snibb]

I have zero issues getting a problem finding a PUG FP group in the game today. I have not been in a group that has not completed an FP either. Why would I want to cut down the number of groups I can find simply because some people want to see damage output when it's not necessary?

 

If it's not necessary that group will not require it.

[Malastare]

Like I said back on page 10: Parse don't lie.

 

Parsers don't lie, but idiots who misinterpret them do.

 

The numbers presented in the parser might be correct, but they are representing only a small amount of information coming from a complex situation.

 

Perhaps my problem is that I haven't been willing to dive into the largely mindless "copy what you saw on YouTube" world of end-game raiding. However, in more dynamic gameplay, there are loads of things that can lower your stats while actually helping the group. This agrees with my general experience that damage/kill stats in multiplayer games have strong correlations with both player skill and selfishness. Bonus points if you have both. Of course, if you boil the game down to its isolated, min-max-or-die, One True Way, Holy Trinity core, then sure, parsers will give you a decently accurate rating of skill. The moment you add any strategy or teamwork... not so much.

 

I've played a number of games that gather stats and I find them pointless on the whole, largely because I already have good self esteem and don't look for games to bolster that. Instead, if I'm playing a multiplayer game in a group, I work to make the group succeed, even at the expense of my own individual failure. I'd rather two other people survive, than have myself survive alone. I'd rather have a 95% of success with my guaranteed death than a 70% chance of success with my guaranteed survival. I would rather that I work harder (eat more health, use more trinkets) and do less damage than let some other character that is at a disadvantage die (assuming that is still best for the group).

 

I've even had someone brag about how much higher his score was than mine. He didn't seem to comprehend my response: "I'd hope so. I saw you were doing well and figured the best way to help the team was to protect you, so I was sacrificing myself to keep you alive." It actually angered him that I was implying that he hadn't earned his score based on his skill alone, ie: that he was actually part of a team.

 

Selfless acts, you see, don't seem to have a column in most stat parsers. Instead, they seem to promote selfishness, locked-roles, bragging, "cliques", and narcissism. They might not be bad per se, but they promote many of the things that drive me away from multiplayer games.

[Seregul]

And if you believe what they said because "supposedly" they knew better than she? The only way we were able to convinced her it wasn't her was to take her log and show it to our friend and like I said had absoulety no problems in getting in groups as he was always asked.

 

She was new to logs and when they told her she was horrible she believed them. She didn't understand the logs and they damn well knew it. They did this just to be horrible to her because unfortuenly their are people who want to be mean and cruel.

 

Our friend looked at the logs and didn't know what the hell they were stating when he examined it. He told her they were jerks and ..... a few other choice words.

 

This is the sort of anecdotal evidence that should lead one to believe combat logs should be in the game.

[Starglide]

This is the sort of anecdotal evidence that should lead one to believe combat logs should be in the game.

 

This /\

[DarthKhaos]

Your comparisons simply don't work here. I want quantitative, accurate data regarding my actions in a virtual game world that can be viewed by everyone else. Performance in a virtual world matters whether you believe it or not

 

I'm not asking for their internal development methods and I'm also not asking them to show me how they create each polygon for each piece of gear.

 

I want to tailor my gameplay experience in the most efficient way possible. You're obviously not interested in that goal. I am. That's the difference between us.

I don't consider a third-party program that will dump all of my actions into a text file as a combat log. This is rubbish. Plain and simple.

 

Are we going to have to create a repository where people can dump their text files and compare their parses? What is this? 1988?

 

People who are against a combat log that shows that activity of others are simply players who currently lack confidence in their ability to play optimally and are scared to get scolded once people discover so. One just has to read most of the nay-sayers and 99% of the time, their argument will revolve around the fact that them or one of their friends got scolded for having bad gear or playing badly.

 

What are you? 5 years old? How is that a bad thing? If somebody (and let's make this clear: the claims have to be valid) does that, they're actually doing you a service and you should take some time off playing the game and inform yourself a little bit regarding whatever shortcomings you had. I

 

If you want a good, knowledgeable community, that is what is required. Not the "It's-my game-and-I-can-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want" attitude. But this is wishful thinking anyways.

Ok make up your mind. The first post talks about YOUR actions, tailoring YOUR gameplay experience. Then you flip the switch and want to collect THEIR data?

[Vydor_HC]

If it's not necessary that group will not require it.

 

Having group logs is not necessary is my point, not just having them for that particular run. If the option is easily available in the interface, many PUG leaders will think it is necessary to have it on, which it's not. Since they will demand it, people will not group with them, thus cutting down the number of groups being created.

 

As it stand now, it's not an issue in the game. I doubt PUG leaders will be demanding that players email them logs from their previous FP's.

[Starglide]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

 

Excellent point. If you still argue the same things after reading this, then you don't understand combat logs.

[GalacticKegger]

This is the sort of anecdotal evidence that should lead one to believe combat logs should be in the game.

Without the log's numbers being weilded like a spanking paddle, her concern would not have existed to begin with. No log, no paddle. No paddle, no problem. I believe that was the gist of her story.

[Snibb]

Parsers don't lie, but idiots who misinterpret them do.

 

Idiots will be idiots regardless. Why group with these people in the first place? To the people who are thinking that dps meters will bring idiots out of the woodwork... the idiots are already there... if they're the type of people who would give you a hard time about average or slightly below average dps, they're the type of people who will harass you for something else anyhow.

DPS meters don't create idiots.

However, some of you imply that using combat logs makes you a jerk, idiot, elitist, or whatever, and that's so insulting. Many quietly use them to gauge their own ability, but you do not notice these people, since they aren't vocal about it in game.

 

In other games I used dps meters extensively for personal use and I can think of only two times where I've booted someone from a group siting damage done. (I'm talking the rest of the group had done 250k damage each over the span of 10 minutes, and this guy did 20k, basically dps'd the first few and then ran with us leeching. If you are this type of person, I do not feel for you.)

 

Also, this business of out of game logs sounds like it'll be extremely (and unnecessarily) time consuming to use, with the details being quite vague.

[Starglide]

Without the log's numbers being weilded like a spanking paddle, her concern would not have existed to begin with. No log, no paddle. No paddle, no problem. I believe that was the gist of her story.

 

Yes, and the gist of the response you quoted was that if it wasn't combat logs, it would be something else. At least with combat logs she could learn how to read them and know they are jerks. What I don't get from that argument, is why someone would want to continue playing with someone who acts like that just because they didn't have the tool to misuse? If anything, that person is probably thankful that combat logs brought out the persons true personality and he/she doesn't need to play with him/her anymore.

 

Honestly though, if a nail gun is misused and shoots the carpenter in the finger, should the government ban all nail guns in the country? Absolutely not. This is how ridiculous this argument against combat logs is getting. Just because one person misuses it doesn't make it a valid argument as to why it should be excluded.

 

And the response to my analogy shouldn't be "Well this game is for casuals" and/or "This game is a game not a profession". If you do not want a developer penalizing your play style, stop allowing them to do it to ours.

[ScarletBlaze]

Without the log's numbers being weilded like a spanking paddle, her concern would not have existed to begin with. No log, no paddle. No paddle, no problem. I believe that was the gist of her story.

 

Correct.

 

 

btw Nice signature.

[Loendar]

Ok make up your mind. The first post talks about YOUR actions, tailoring YOUR gameplay experience. Then you flip the switch and want to collect THEIR data?

 

He's not alone in this. The vast majority of the pro-side say they want to get their information to better themselves and then say they want it all and the tool is worthless without it.

 

It's like they think we can't see what they are asking for from post to post.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I don't consider a third-party program that will dump all of my actions into a text file as a combat log. This is rubbish. Plain and simple.

 

...

 

Lollermittens you have insulted and flamed people time and again in this thread. Some people can't handle that...

 

I can. So I am going to actively counter each of your points in turn.

 

Are we going to have to create a repository where people can dump their text files and compare their parses? What is this? 1988?

 

No.

 

I was alive in 1988, I was playing computer games in 1988, and I can tell you that in 1988 we wouldn't have cared. In 1988 we believed in playing games to have fun rather than to turn it into some kind of "optimal only" scenario.

 

People who are against a combat log that shows that activity of others are simply players who currently lack confidence in their ability to play optimally and are scared to get scolded once people discover so. One just has to read most of the nay-sayers and 99% of the time, their argument will revolve around the fact that them or one of their friends got scolded for having bad gear or playing badly.

 

No.

 

See, I'm one of the best Sentinels on my server. I regularly am holding one of the top two slots in every Warzone I am in. I know my rotations and I have no doubt that even if someone could see my performance that I would perform more than up to par.

 

I have no fear what-so-ever of being "scolded" because someone thought that I didn't play optimally.

 

I don't want people who would do such a thing to even be playing this game.

 

What are you? 5 years old? How is that a bad thing? If somebody (and let's make this clear: the claims have to be valid) does that, they're actually doing you a service and you should take some time off playing the game and inform yourself a little bit regarding whatever shortcomings you had.

 

If you want a good, knowledgeable community, that is what is required. Not the "It's-my game-and-I-can-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want" attitude. But this is wishful thinking anyways.

 

I want a friendly community that cares more about having fun in an operation than they do about making sure that everyone hits invisible benchmarks.

 

If you want to play the optimization game then you can, create a repository, compile the logs, and have it spit out numbers for you. The main thing is this... It won't be easy and if I want to tell you, "No you can't see my numbers." then I have the right to say that.

[ScarletBlaze]

...

 

Lollermittens you have insulted and flamed people time and again in this thread. Some people can't handle that...

 

I can. So I am going to actively counter each of your points in turn.

 

 

 

No.

 

I was alive in 1988, I was playing computer games in 1988, and I can tell you that in 1988 we wouldn't have cared. In 1988 we believed in playing games to have fun rather than to turn it into some kind of "optimal only" scenario.

 

 

 

No.

 

See, I'm one of the best Sentinels on my server. I regularly am holding one of the top two slots in every Warzone I am in. I know my rotations and I have no doubt that even if someone could see my performance that I would perform more than up to par.

 

I have no fear what-so-ever of being "scolded" because someone thought that I didn't play optimally.

 

I don't want people who would do such a thing to even be playing this game.

 

 

 

I want a friendly community that cares more about having fun in an operation than they do about making sure that everyone hits invisible benchmarks.

 

If you want to play the optimization game then you can, create a repository, compile the logs, and have it spit out numbers for you. The main thing is this... It won't be easy and if I want to tell you, "No you can't see my numbers." then I have the right to say that.

 

 

This is going to be strange considering we rarely agree on anything but for once I agree with you.

[Loendar]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

 

 

Interesting read.

 

So, if what you are stating above is correct - all of this information was collected, analyzed and broken down *without* combat logs? And it's accurate and useful? They were able to generate statistical models from the numbers presented on tooltips and observation?

 

There are *other* ways to do things than a combat log that spoon feeds it to you?

 

Is that what you are saying? Because that is how I'm reading it.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Honestly though, if a nail gun is misused and shoots the carpenter in the finger, should the government ban all nail guns in the country? Absolutely not. This is how ridiculous this argument against combat logs is getting. Just because one person misuses it doesn't make it a valid argument as to why it should be excluded.

 

It isn't "one person" misusing something though Starglide it is a huge number of people who misuse it. I also have news for you, the government has banned quite a few things that are otherwise beneficial simply because people misused it in large enough numbers. So yes, your side, the side that wielded meters and logs as weapons, is the side to blame.

 

The side that required logs to "keep people honest" and who said, "If you can't DPS at least XXX you can't come on this raid!" that caused this. If people didn't misuse it them it wouldn't be as big an issue but people do misuse it and it now needs to be regulated.

 

BioWare has regulated it.

 

It isn't like you can't get your all inclusive log anyway. I could write a program that would parse multiple logs and output a comprehensive report. It only makes it marginally more difficult in that people have to agree to send you the logs.

[Blotter]

Excellent point. If you still argue the same things after reading this, then you don't understand combat logs.

 

Really? Lame. "...shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from that knowledge." That is PRECISELY the problem with it, not the argument in favor of it.

 

THOSE BENEFITS ARE NOT PLAYING THE GAME. They are playing the GAME MECHANICS. There's a HUGE difference, but you'ev all been trained to confuse the two things as one and the same.

 

L2P THE GAME or you're not "hardcore," period.

[Snibb]

Without the log's numbers being weilded like a spanking paddle, her concern would not have existed to begin with. No log, no paddle. No paddle, no problem. I believe that was the gist of her story.

 

I completely disagree. People will still give you a hard time if you stink. DPS meters/combat logs can be used as a numeric representation, but there are other ways to tell. The paddle still exists without the meter.

 

Other ways to tell you stink;

-As a dps, you constantly pull aggro from mobs the tank isn't attacking.

-As a dps, whatever points you use for skills (forcepower, ammo, etc) always stays full.

-As anyone, you stand in any sort of damage aura.

-As a tank, you pull more than you can handle, and die within seconds.

-As a tank, you don't use taunts.

-As a healer, you let the tank die, and the tank is doing what he's supposed to be doing.

-As a healer, you put up a heal over time before the battle starts and wonder why all the mobs attack you when the tank pulls.

 

Feel free to add to the list, as it's just a few examples. Keep in mind that skills/spells have unique animations, so other players can see if you are doing things you shouldn't, or not doing things you should. Some will be polite about it, but the jerks are always going to be jerks regardless.

[Frezzyisfuzzy]

Interesting read.

 

So, if what you are stating above is correct - all of this information was collected, analyzed and broken down *without* combat logs? And it's accurate and useful? They were able to generate statistical models from the numbers presented on tooltips and observation?

 

There are *other* ways to do things than a combat log that spoon feeds it to you?

 

Is that what you are saying? Because that is how I'm reading it.

 

No. What he's saying is that they're able to make mathematical projections using the data available. A combat log would enable you to see what is actually happening, rather than an educated guess. What if an ability is bugged? What if a talent skill is not correctly affecting its correlating ability? We need the real, raw data for things like that.

 

Also, those formulas only account for the absolute ideal circumstances, not real encounters. A combat log and parsing program lets you analyze individual encounters and see how to improve at each one.

[Starglide]

Interesting read.

 

So, if what you are stating above is correct - all of this information was collected, analyzed and broken down *without* combat logs? And it's accurate and useful? They were able to generate statistical models from the numbers presented on tooltips and observation?

 

There are *other* ways to do things than a combat log that spoon feeds it to you?

 

Is that what you are saying? Because that is how I'm reading it.

 

Did you read the whole thing or just skip over the part where he said it is still hypothesis and since there is no combat log, even with all that hard work, you still can't be 100% without raw numbers?

[Andryah]

How selfish can you get?

 

Best display of irony this week in the forums.

[ScarletBlaze]

Starglide;3325199]Yes, and the gist of the response you quoted was that if it wasn't combat logs, it would be something else. At least with combat logs she could learn how to read them and know they are jerks. What I don't get from that argument, is why someone would want to continue playing with someone who acts like that just because they didn't have the tool to misuse? If anything, that person is probably thankful that combat logs brought out the persons true personality and he/she doesn't need to play with him/her anymore.

 

She only played with them once and that was enough. I dislike anyone using anything that can make another player feel bad and even more so when she's a good friend.

 

Actually she was quite upset when they said those things to her. And no she wasn't thankful considering she had to deal with the comments so how could you say she would be thankful when they were rude and insulting to her?