PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[ferroz]

poll result right now: 75% no - 25% yes

 

summary of posts so far:

 

No voters --> some are a wall of text insulting yes voters, some trying to have an intelligent discussion

 

Yes voters --> some are wall of text insulting no voters, some trying to have an intelligent discussion

fixed that for you

 

Not even close to the same. More like having a new car model without a trunk release lever in the passenger compartment. Is it nice to have? yes. Would you be miserable without that feature? no.

No, it's clearly a lot more like air conditioning, since there are clearly some people who are miserable without the feature and think it's necessary.

 

I vote NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The personal combat log they are planning to implement is enough for YOU to do YOUR theory crafting to make YOURSELF a better player.

Actually, it's not, since you won't be able to track interactions between classes with it, so it's missing a lot of the data that's needed for some people's theorycrafting.

 

 

while 5 people might use open dps meters as a teaching tool, 500 will use it as a club. I have played many games without meters, if you cant figure out who is disrupting things, you need to find another hobby.

That doesn't match with my experience at all; I'd say that 5 people use it as a teaching tool, 5 use it as a club, and 495 use it as neither.

[Dalwhat]

Vote YES to combat logs.

 

Parsing is by far the best guage a player can have to assess his/her effectiveness. With the addition of combat dummies you can use parsing of the data to fine tune rotations or assess gear effects. Yes some guilds will use them to rank its members but if you are offended by this for some reason then you are not being forced to remain in those guilds. To be honest though in my experience of EQ and EQ2 those that are actively anti-parsing tend to be those who are shown up to be well below average as players. Casual players by and large could care less about such a feature, never use it and are rarely affected by it. If combat logs show you up to be a poor player and you're not interested in improving (if nothing else than for the benfit of the groups you are seeking to join) then you are deserving of all the grief you fear you will receive.

[Galbatorrix]

DPS meters dont discourage dynamic game play, people do. If you choose to ignore your teammates in order to max out dps, that is a personal problem.

 

Again, if you have to break your dps, something probably just went wrong with the pull and you probably wont be raving about the dps meter soon afterward, assuming you dont wipe.

 

dps meters may kill the fun for you. if that's the case, i am baffled why, given the option, you would choose to use them.

 

For me on the otherhand, dps meters increase the satisfaction of my gameplay. And you are arguing that i should be denied that satisfaction...because?

 

 

edit; nothing beats a dps being able to say, "har har, look at all the healing i did on the healing meter"

 

 

What option? If they're in the game, you don't have an option. Same with add-ons. If they allow add-ons, there will be certain one's that you're expected to have to join Ops. People will deny you groups and also you'll be forced to "dps watch" during runs or risk being booted because you didn't know what your DPS was. Unfortunately, we both can't have our way here. It's either mine or yours. And at least for now, Bioware has chosen mine.

[ferroz]

You don't need a meter for that; dual whoever lives has more DPS.

No, that doesn't have anything to do with a pve dps competition.

 

sure you can.

No, without a full combat log they can't, actually.

 

Knowing that Sentinel #2 is pulling 75% or less of Sentinel #1 is great knowledge. You can tell #1 to talk to him, tell him (or help him) to work on his gear, etc. None of those things will let you down that boss tonight though, so the time delay of parsing it offline won't matter.

No, that's not true; I've been in a raid group where we were having problems due to lack of dps, and we were able to coach one of the low dps person to fix his biggest problems that night, and downed the boss that night (several tries later but still downed).

 

If we had had to to repeatedly share parses, we wouldn't have had time (we had a hard 1am cutoff time)

[vendorune]

No.

 

There is no end to numbers and game mechanics. Stats, gear, random rolls. Special events (relic activated). Please you start digging and the truth never comes out anyway.

 

PLAY! Leave your accounting degree at the office.

[ferroz]

Practice. Situational awareness. Comparison. You know... the same way we do in the Big Blue Room (ie: the real world).

No, none of that helps if you don't know there's a problem

 

I don't remember getting a spreadsheet of my performance when I played football in high school. I figured out how I stood by... you know... using my brain.

Really? we had them back in my day, and that was ~2 decades ago. I'm pretty sure people had them even back when my parents were in high school: tracking detailed numerical performance in sports is something that's been around for ages.

 

Good players shouldn't need meters to be good.

They certainly help good players when coaching non-good players into becoming good players.

[Galbatorrix]

To be honest though in my experience of EQ and EQ2 those that are actively anti-parsing tend to be those who are shown up to be well below average as players.

 

Ugh...this again? This would be like me claiming that everyone who wants a DPS meter is someone who would use it only to grief other players for not matching up to arbitrary DPS levels.

[RealAeiouy]

as someone who has spent an unhealthy amount of time playing MMOs in the past, a developer who does not see the significance of combat logs probably doesn't understand a lot of other things about MMOs.

 

Lol. I have explained the silly history of why combat logs exist like they have and it is not some thought out super plan.

 

It is laziness by mmog devs that carried over from eq overlaying graphics on a text base game. The swtor developers are the first ones to look at it and say why the heck are we including a ridiculous text log in our 3d game? They are right by the way

 

The people who have no understanding of mmogs are those who think having a text log is somehow requisite in a 3d graphical game.

[ferroz]

And frankly, if it makes many of the immature abusers quit, that is a good thing. They can go grief in another MMO.

No, they'll just grief people using purely subjective, unverifiable reasons. So if you play X class with Y spec, you're going to be griefed because you're faildps. Even if you're actually out-performing everyone else.

 

like my ranger friend in EQ, who was an amazing dps player, who got booted because "ranges are useless, noob"

[ferroz]

No.

 

There is no end to numbers and game mechanics. Stats, gear, random rolls. Special events (relic activated). Please you start digging and the truth never comes out anyway.

 

PLAY! Leave your accounting degree at the office.

eh, some people enjoy playing with the numbers... why are they wrong?

[Stupiddrummer]

What option? If they're in the game, you don't have an option. Same with add-ons. If they allow add-ons, there will be certain one's that you're expected to have to join Ops. People will deny you groups and also you'll be forced to "dps watch" during runs or risk being booted because you didn't know what your DPS was. Unfortunately, we both can't have our way here. It's either mine or yours. And at least for now, Bioware has chosen mine.

 

You're right, all those scenarios you just made up totally happen all the time to all these real people on the internet, and totally justify not putting damage meters into the game. It's not just internet hear-say, but there is factual data to prove that every single person is discriminated against based on in game metrics.

 

People are still going to deny you if your dps blows, you will just have no evidence to try and prove them wrong other than your words vs theirs'.

 

If your doing fine, no body is going to question you or care about meters. I raided in WoW without meters or even decurse, and no one had a problem cuz we still beat bosses.

 

And apparently everyone is dropping bosses everywhere in this game so i don't see where this imaginary hostility could come from.

[Stupiddrummer]

Lol. I have explained the silly history of why combat logs exist like they have and it is not some thought out super plan.

 

It is laziness by mmog devs that carried over from eq overlaying graphics on a text base game. The swtor developers are the first ones to look at it and say why the heck are we including a ridiculous text log in our 3d game? They are right by the way

 

The people who have no understanding of mmogs are those who think having a text log is somehow requisite in a 3d graphical game.

 

so are you saying that there is no value in combat logs? Bioware are the guys that finally saw the light. "NUmbers!!! Who cares about numbers in a MMO?? Bahaha!! Lightsabers for everyone!!!"

[Drewser]

 

No, it's clearly a lot more like air conditioning, since there are clearly some people who are miserable without the feature and think it's necessary.

 

Nope you are overstating it. Do a survey of car owners and ask them if a new car should come with AC, you won't get a break down like in this thread where only 1 in 4 think it should.

[Pekish]

I approve 1 server with combat log active so all those whiner-elitist brat will go there and insult eachohter for a .00001 dps more or less... and kick eachother out of the raid and end up raiding alone or buy 8 pc to have 8 char all by themselves.

 

 

if that would be possible.

[ferroz]

This method has been available for a decade now and across many MMOs. It has proven very efffective and easy to use, if you take the time to actually install and use a credible parser like ACT.

No, none of those games that I'm aware of were limited to personal only information... which I think is his actual complaint, since he believes that's what's going to be added.

 

If your doing fine, no body is going to question you or care about meters. I raided in WoW without meters or even decurse, and no one had a problem cuz we still beat bosses.

Indeed, they're optional. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to. Just like in wow today:

• If you don't want to use the combat log you don't have to. You can still join a guild, group with people, and raid.
  
• If you don't want to use addons you don't have to. You can still join a guild, group with people, and raid.
  

[Celwinn]

I vote no because it will cause so much drama in PUG groups (like Wow). The way Bioware plans on doing it is just fine. You get too see what your numbers are and that's it.

 

Think of it like this:

 

Did Han ever tell Chewie that he wasn't hitting hard enough in the Death Star attack from ANH?

 

Did Han ever tell Leia to fire her blaster differently in ROTJ's Endor attack?

[Galbatorrix]

You're right, all those scenarios you just made up totally happen all the time to all these real people on the internet, and totally justify not putting damage meters into the game. It's not just internet hear-say, but there is factual data to prove that every single person is discriminated against based on in game metrics.

 

People are still going to deny you if your dps blows, you will just have no evidence to try and prove them wrong other than your words vs theirs'.

 

If your doing fine, no body is going to question you or care about meters. I raided in WoW without meters or even decurse, and no one had a problem cuz we still beat bosses.

 

And apparently everyone is dropping bosses everywhere in this game so i don't see where this imaginary hostility could come from.

 

 

I'm speaking specifically from my personal experiences with WOW RDF pugs. If we've killed 2 of 3 bosses, I don't need the healer complaining because the run is taking too long because DPS # 3's DPS is 1K lower than what he feels it should be. If all you ever had in WOW were magical guild runs where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, awesome for you. I mostly pug in these games and hearing complaint after complaint about arbitrary DPS #s is a real buzz kill. I'm not saying all players use DPS meters for this. Heck, I personally love them, but If I have to forget about them so this game doesn't become another DPS crunch/flame fest like WOW, I'm all for it.

[rzrknight]

Poor Op , the casual QQ alrdy ruined PvP , they cant allow a system that actually works based on skill be implemented , do you think they will allow something that they actually suck get out? No , they will QQ till that does not hit also.

 

My advice? Check the player , if ya dont trust 100% in his fingers , kick him.

[efylinx]

I also vote No,

 

I like BW's approach: It's there if someone wants to crunch the numbers to provide general advice to the community on good rotations and any buggy abilities. It's not in-your-face during raids so that others can pass judgment on you.

[Stupiddrummer]

I'm speaking specifically from my personal experiences with WOW RDF pugs. If we've killed 2 of 3 bosses, I don't need the healer complaining because the run is taking too long because DPS # 3's DPS is 1K lower than what he feels it should be. If all you ever had in WOW were magical guild runs where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, awesome for you. I mostly pug in these games and hearing complaint after complaint about arbitrary DPS #s is a real buzz kill. I'm not saying all players use DPS meters for this. Heck, I personally love them, but If I have to forget about them so this game doesn't become another DPS crunch/flame fest like WOW, I'm all for it.

 

So what you're really mad at is the cross server LFD?

[ferroz]

I vote no because it will cause so much drama in PUG groups (like Wow).

It doesn't actually cause any drama in pug groups. Jerks cause drama in pug groups. If they don't have meters, they still have plenty of subjective, unverifiable things to be jerks about.

 

Did Han ever tell Chewie that he wasn't hitting hard enough in the Death Star attack from ANH?

 

Did Han ever tell Leia to fire her blaster differently in ROTJ's Endor attack?

No, because chewie and Leia were both putting out good dps

[Stupiddrummer]

no, because chewie and leia were both putting out good dps

 

ba-zing!

[ferroz]

So what you're really mad at is the cross server LFD?

I doubt it's even that... I suspect he's just projecting his problems at the lfd and meters.

[ShadowOfVey]

I've played many games with dps meters and it's refreshing not having to deal with it in this one.

 

I vote no.

[Starglide]

They will give you target dummies with 1.2 patch, if you are that concerned about your dps just take a watch and dps it for 3-4 min and choose best spec for you... combat log is useful sometimes but if it will lead us to dps/threat meters it will lessens games non-existing fun... also it will just affect bad players, either they will look realy bad and will not accepted by any group or they will use these meters to improve their dps and look like good player, I dont think none of these are good things

 

I am going to say this one more time so hopefully it syncs in.

 

COMBAT LOGS ARE NOT JUST FOR DAMAGE. YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR RAID TO HELP WITH ENCOUNTERS, MECHANICS, HEALING AMONG MANY OTHER STATISTICS NECESSARY/HELPFUL FOR PROGRESSION.