In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[ferroz]

You must have trouble reading.

No, I reed gud

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

-- Georg

 

Second quote:

 

With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed.

 

No show me one quote where they explicitly state I will data on other players.

Neither of those say anything about personal data, or anything about limiting the results in the upcoming downloadable combat log. The word "you" is both a 2nd person plural and a 2nd person singular pronoun. Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Drewser]

No, I reed gud

 

Neither of those say anything about personal data, or anything about limiting the results in the upcoming downloadable combat log. The word "you" is both a 2nd person plural and a 2nd person singular pronoun.

 

Seriously, go back to school. This is clear as a sunny Florida day.

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

You must intentionally be acting obtuse if think the above quote means anything other than the individual getting access to their personal combat data.

 

Let's break it down - more detailed information about THEIR character - that can't mean anything but a person getting info about their character. Not characters in their group. not characters in their ops - THEIR character.

 

Next sentence - get more detailed data on YOUR combat performance - again this is singular possessive and totally directed at the person getting combat data on themselves. Nothing about your team or ops or others.

[ProphetX]

The wussification of our society never ceases to amaze me . Now the dps you do in game being shared is an invasion of your privacy .

 

I coach basketball my team did very well last year , were gonna be rebuilding next year . On that note I'm gonna petition the league to remove all the scoreboards in all the gyms . If my team doesn't perform at the same level this year as they did last its an invasion of my teams privacy .

 

I mean its laughable , are we really as a society so cowardly that were embarrassed of the dps we do in a video game ?

 

Personally , I don't care what dps you do , what I do want to know is the tools that recount provided . Were you dpsing the boss the whole time when you should have been taking out the stun droid that was interrupting my tank / healer . Did my tank just get whacked because he missed an interrupt , stood in the fire , or a dps kited a droid into him causing a combination of both ?

 

 

When you invest so much effort into copying WOW and you leave out or work around key features that people enjoy this is why you see so many people leaving this game .

 

Is recount needed ? NO . Would I like to have it because its a quality of life issue ? Absolutely . Would I like to see the spam to the enitre raid what your dps is feature removed YES .

 

 

Just sad that there are so many carebears .

[michaelra]

Thank goodness for that. I hate it when people brag they can damage better than the other and think they are the superhero in the server, sigh..grow up

 

The other day 2 people were arguing and one said "o yea, I bet I can do better DPS than you"

err..what? So if you have a better DPS, then you are a better player?

[ferroz]

The other day 2 people were arguing and one said "o yea, I bet I can do better DPS than you"

err..what? So if you have a better DPS, then you are a better player?

If your role in the group and his role in the group are both to "hit it like you mean it" and you are better at "hitting it like you mean it" than he is ... seems like the answer is probably yes....

[ferroz]

Seriously, go back to school.

Nah, not interested

 

This is clear as a sunny Florida day.

No, it's not; and it was overcast most of the day, at least here.

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

You must intentionally be acting obtuse if think the above quote means anything other than the individual getting access to their personal combat data.

No, I don't have to be acting obtuse. I can just be reading it and acknowledge the fact that this does not, in any way, say that the downloadable combat log will be limited in what information it contains.

 

 

Let's break it down - more detailed information about THEIR character - that can't mean anything but a person getting info about their character. Not characters in their group. not characters in their ops - THEIR character.

So? This statement says nothing about a downloadable combat log...

 

Next sentence - get more detailed data on YOUR combat performance - again this is singular possessive and totally directed at the person getting combat data on themselves. Nothing about your team or ops or others.

No, there's no reason to assume it's singular possessive rather than plural possessive, unless you just want it to be that way.

 

And again, this doesn't actually mention the downloadable detailed combat log...

Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[DarkReagan]

If your role in the group and his role in the group are both to "hit it like you mean it" and you are better at "hitting it like you mean it" than he is ... seems like the answer is probably yes....

 

I bet the guy would stand in fire tbqh. So no dps is not the sole thing that makes a person good. I can't count the number of times I've hear... damn if only I woulda stayed alive, woulda topped the charts. Yeah well maybe you should learn to stay alive then.

[Serbegorn]

Completely *********** useless.

[RealAeiouy]

The wussification of our society never ceases to amaze me . Now the dps you do in game being shared is an invasion of your privacy .

 

I coach basketball my team did very well last year , were gonna be rebuilding next year . On that note I'm gonna petition the league to remove all the scoreboards in all the gyms . If my team doesn't perform at the same level this year as they did last its an invasion of my teams privacy .

 

I mean its laughable , are we really as a society so cowardly that were embarrassed of the dps we do in a video game ?

 

Personally , I don't care what dps you do , what I do want to know is the tools that recount provided . Were you dpsing the boss the whole time when you should have been taking out the stun droid that was interrupting my tank / healer . Did my tank just get whacked because he missed an interrupt , stood in the fire , or a dps kited a droid into him causing a combination of both ?

 

 

When you invest so much effort into copying WOW and you leave out or work around key features that people enjoy this is why you see so many people leaving this game .

 

Is recount needed ? NO . Would I like to have it because its a quality of life issue ? Absolutely . Would I like to see the spam to the enitre raid what your dps is feature removed YES .

 

 

Just sad that there are so many carebears .

 

If you don't understand the differences here I question your coaching ability.

 

Comparing dps meters to a scoreboard makes you a misguided coach or a very misguided mmog player. You and your players don't have access to the kind of information, on the fly, a combat meter provides.

 

If you compared playing the game to playing a sport you would know you have no need for any meters.

[Faulhaber]

This is a bless... If this is set into stone I might be looking into raiding once more. I gave up on raiding when "lack of DPS" became the excuse for not trying to overcome boss mechanics.

 

January 2011, as a rogue I killed Chogall with a group of friends on the seventh attempt, first shot onto the last phase that was triggered after dealing with the 5th wave of slimes (25 slimes appeared ). Everyone in the 10 man raid were fully decked on blues. Highest DPS on that group for the fight? 15k from a DK. I was on kicking duty on the adds and aoe snaring the blood slimes when they came out. Eyestalks popped I used smoke bomb on the healers, gouged one eyestalk, blinded another, sprinted, vanish cheapshot a third, and started damaging it while the group was finishing the first stalk. My dps for that fight? second place at 12k but I earned the purple dagger and my armor piece. I stopped playing on february after experiencing all high end content it had to offer.

 

April 2011, I was returning to play wow occasionally after trying another game and helping acquaintances with raids in preparation for firelands, already fully geared. Ascendant Council: my duty on first phase? Kick the hell out of Feludius, no buff trading between melee and ranged. duty on the second phase? Melee Arion (o.O). Comment from group after some wipes: my dps as a rogue sucked despite the fact I as a melee was assigned to roles where disconnects were a necessity, but if anyone with a brain looked at the logs as it should it was blatant I did the most damage to the elementium monstrosity and it was the sum of the combined damage of the second and third place, and it is really the only time during the whole fight where dps really matters. ROFLMAO.

 

Chogall? Horrible... Soandso's guild use to trigger the last phase just after the third wave of slimes... Mad dps became the answer to trivialize boss mechanics. Wipes and wipes. People were scared of being kicked from the raid because 15k dps "was" the minimum to do the encounter. The group wasn't able to pull enough dps to start last phase before 4th wave of adds. I begged for them to at least attempt after the 4th wave and let me help with adds at the 4th wave and at least give a shot on the final phase. Because I was doing the most damage the raid leader was very reluctant to attempt it, I reasoned with him and we agreed. He stopped calling for wipes on the third wave.I slowed down on dps not to trigger last phase when slimes spawned. I AoE ensnared them and they were killed effortlessly. We then proceeded to kill Chogall. Then I realized what was really happening. By trying to pull out most dps people were getting corruption really high even during the first phase by not trying to avoid splashes and allowing worshiping to go for a considerably long time because they first finished whatever they were casting, when eyestalks appeared players would finish their rotation prior to switching to them, some of them even did not care about focus firing or using CC and were trying to inflate their dps with AoE. The encounter could only be done because the raid leader kicked a shaman for doing the least DPS (15k average, the same ammount the highest dps did on my first kill) and replaced with a hunter from another guild. The hunter showed how to position Chogall in a cheesy way so that the enviroment would make all eyestalks appear next to eachother by the throne, they could be aoed down and the encounter could be done by DPSing the crap out of it. With the help of the well geared hunter dps the final phase was triggered before the 4th wave of adds, the players did not get very high corruption before the last phase just because the first phase was shorter, not because they tried to avoid standing on crap, and last phase was easier because they also did not have high corruption.

 

Seriously, meters just help furthering the concept of using DPS as the means to trivialize a raid encounter, and actually stress more players.

[Dayfax]

If your role in the group and his role in the group are both to "hit it like you mean it" and you are better at "hitting it like you mean it" than he is ... seems like the answer is probably yes....

 

Maybe. One could interpret the primary role as "don't die," because dead DPS do no damage. One could interpret a secondary role as "interrupts" or "peels." A third role might be "cc" or "buff your teammates."

 

Doing all of those roles in any encounter arguably makes you a better player than someone who simply tunnels damage into a boss.

 

The only thing that bugs me about meters is that they change how people play, because they're so insecure about their ranking they won't risk doing anything outside their rotation.

 

This tends to turn potentially good group players into mediocre or even bad ones.

[Drewser]

Nah, not interested

 

No, it's not; and it was overcast most of the day, at least here.

 

No, I don't have to be acting obtuse. I can just be reading it and acknowledge the fact that this does not, in any way, say that the downloadable combat log will be limited in what information it contains.

 

 

So? This statement says nothing about a downloadable combat log...

 

No, there's no reason to assume it's singular possessive rather than plural possessive, unless you just want it to be that way.

 

And again, this doesn't actually mention the downloadable detailed combat log...

 

Umm, the whole statement is singular possessive. How you think it is anything else is beyond me.

 

It is has nothing to with "want" it is written as singular possessive not plural.

[BCBull]

Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.

 

Yeah it did and now look at the quote in the OP.

 

They are always saying "your", "not a tool to judge", "what killed you or what you killed", etc...

 

There is nothing that have said that would lead one to think it will have info on those around you.

 

While listening to him speak the "people judge you" part seemed to be the reason that the my logs parsable out side of the game. I like the cheering guilds did not hear this as ONLY your personal log.

Edited March 7, 2012 by BCBull

[Drewser]

While listening to him speak the "people judge you" part seemed to be the reason that the my logs parsable out side of the game. I like the cheering guilds did not hear this as ONLY your personal log.

 

I heard him speak as well and nothing made me think it would be a full combat log given the context of the statement.

[JediElf]

Bioware, did the right thing.

[Kokoexplorer]

This is a bless... If this is set into stone I might be looking into raiding once more. I gave up on raiding when "lack of DPS" became the excuse for not trying to overcome boss mechanics.

 

January 2011, as a rogue I killed Chogall with a group of friends on the seventh attempt, first shot onto the last phase that was triggered after dealing with the 5th wave of slimes (25 slimes appeared ). Everyone in the 10 man raid were fully decked on blues. Highest DPS on that group for the fight? 15k from a DK. I was on kicking duty on the adds and aoe snaring the blood slimes when they came out. Eyestalks popped I used smoke bomb on the healers, gouged one eyestalk, blinded another, sprinted, vanish cheapshot a third, and started damaging it while the group was finishing the first stalk. My dps for that fight? second place at 12k but I earned the purple dagger and my armor piece. I stopped playing on february after experiencing all high end content it had to offer.

 

April 2011, I was returning to play wow occasionally after trying another game and helping acquaintances with raids in preparation for firelands, already fully geared. Ascendant Council: my duty on first phase? Kick the hell out of Feludius, no buff trading between melee and ranged. duty on the second phase? Melee Arion (o.O). Comment from group after some wipes: my dps as a rogue sucked despite the fact I as a melee was assigned to roles where disconnects were a necessity, but if anyone with a brain looked at the logs as it should it was blatant I did the most damage to the elementium monstrosity and it was the sum of the combined damage of the second and third place, and it is really the only time during the whole fight where dps really matters. ROFLMAO.

 

Chogall? Horrible... Soandso's guild use to trigger the last phase just after the third wave of slimes... Mad dps became the answer to trivialize boss mechanics. Wipes and wipes. People were scared of being kicked from the raid because 15k dps "was" the minimum to do the encounter. The group wasn't able to pull enough dps to start last phase before 4th wave of adds. I begged for them to at least attempt after the 4th wave and let me help with adds at the 4th wave and at least give a shot on the final phase. Because I was doing the most damage the raid leader was very reluctant to attempt it, I reasoned with him and we agreed. He stopped calling for wipes on the third wave.I slowed down on dps not to trigger last phase when slimes spawned. I AoE ensnared them and they were killed effortlessly. We then proceeded to kill Chogall. Then I realized what was really happening. By trying to pull out most dps people were getting corruption really high even during the first phase by not trying to avoid splashes and allowing worshiping to go for a considerably long time because they first finished whatever they were casting, when eyestalks appeared players would finish their rotation prior to switching to them, some of them even did not care about focus firing or using CC and were trying to inflate their dps with AoE. The encounter could only be done because the raid leader kicked a shaman for doing the least DPS (15k average, the same ammount the highest dps did on my first kill) and replaced with a hunter from another guild. The hunter showed how to position Chogall in a cheesy way so that the enviroment would make all eyestalks appear next to eachother by the throne, they could be aoed down and the encounter could be done by DPSing the crap out of it. With the help of the well geared hunter dps the final phase was triggered before the 4th wave of adds, the players did not get very high corruption before the last phase just because the first phase was shorter, not because they tried to avoid standing on crap, and last phase was easier because they also did not have high corruption.

 

Seriously, meters just help furthering the concept of using DPS as the means to trivialize a raid encounter, and actually stress more players.

 

All the wall of text just to use the worst boss fight example ever to prove your point.

 

It is clear given the point you are talking about you are talking about good players, not casuals. Thus you shouldn't be refering to "casual pug" experiences. so that puts it in realm of 25man heroic pre 4.2 nerf and other nerfs. Progression.

 

Thats where you lose all credibility with your point, a lot of what you say isn't correct in context or accurate.

 

1. Your description of the fight makes it clear you are only talking about normal mode. Any good guild had no problem with this fight on normal mode. Chogal was killed on live servers Dec 9, 2010. Chogal was killed 2-3 days after release. Normal modes are a joke. It took 5-7 weeks after the normal mode kills for guilds to be able to kill chogal on hardmode.

 

2. It is obvious when you came back you played with a casual group / pugs. It is also clear you only did normal mode. It was also standard about a few things. Ranged > melee. Rogues only really shined on twin dragons on hardmode. Other classses did everything better then rogues as melee, that is why they gave rogues legendaries at end of expansion. April when you came back is also when they started stealth nerfing that fight. Then shortly after 4.2 hit which made the entire place 5 man.

 

3. Using shaman was also a bad example, shamans overall where in a very bad place. Shaman dps was not a very good choice for that fight. Pretty much useless range aoe, and elemental was pretty poor dps overall. An under geared skilled hunter could far outperform a geared elemental shaman on single target. Plus the hunter could lay down traps which was key to the fight.

 

4. You clearly have no idea about the dps that was needed for hardmode. We had designated 100% corrupted spammers for last phase on purpose. The healers had to handle the aoe that put out

5. You sound like a casual pugger getting angry at other puggers, on normal mode fights that took 3 days clear after the expansion was realeased and that included time needed to LEVEL. the way you talk and your recollection just don't match anyone top end I raided with. The fact I have to try tell you why means you wouldn't get what I mean by this. world first hardmode took 5-7 weeks of farming gear to reach dps levels needed by the worlds best players.

 

Prove me wrong, link me a armory and I will come meet you ingame so I can dig up wowprogress server kill date records and cached wow log parses. Otherwise your entire argument is wrong, missguided and further proves the disparity between the different level of players that exists regardless of the existence of combat logs.

 

I doubt you wil provide anything, which is the exact same result no combat log provides us in swtor. It masks the real differences between players because all we have are words. This in itself wouldn't be an issue if people didn't use it to pretend to be something they are not.

 

Idealism though, great theory but doesn't work.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kokoexplorer

[ProphetX]

If you don't understand the differences here I question your coaching ability.

 

Comparing dps meters to a scoreboard makes you a misguided coach or a very misguided mmog player. You and your players don't have access to the kind of information, on the fly, a combat meter provides.

 

If you compared playing the game to playing a sport you would know you have no need for any meters.

 

But see thats part of what makes the game fun , competition , not for all but for some . When the casuals get bored and moved on to the next mmo there hopping to and from the min / maxers are the ones that keep playing . Were the 38% thats being thrown around thats raiding and logging on every day .

 

I don't see the problem with sharing your dps . If you can do good dps you shouldn't have a problem with it .

 

To me it equates to playing a sport without keeping score . Do you think people are gonna set in a gym for hours watching a game being played when none of the shots matter ?

 

It baffles me to no end what people are so afraid of when almost EVERY MMO has a parser .

 

I have been ridiculed , I did more research got better at what I do been playing MMO's for a long time and never had my feelings hurt to where I wanted all information about me not available for people to see . If I'm doing bad I want to know what I can do to be the best at what I do .

 

 

It reminds me of being afraid to be picked last in dodgeball .

Edited March 7, 2012 by ProphetX

[Colow_Leper]

I'm not sure what name calling and ridiculing in wow that you're talking about... I've seen people get ridiculed for low dps a handful of times, and I've pugged more than 1000 lfd groups (pug'd solo) and as many as 12 raids a week (usually during wotlk it was closer to 5). Almost all of those times the person was vastly under performing: like the shadow priest who was pulling ~1k dps when the tanks were doing 4-5k, and the top dps was ~15k. I don't think I've ever seen someone ridiculed for doing low dps as long as they were making a valid contribution...

 

I've seen it in guild - and I've seen it in pugs.

 

In guild (mostly because I was in a guild of older players) the conversation between fights would along the lines of "try casting X just before casting Y - then you can cast Z as an instant to really help the damage" - useful stuff.

 

In pugs it tended to be more along the lines of "OMG U SUCK - L2P N00B!" (my favourite time for that was when the idiot screaming abuse was promtly kicked from the group - and we happily continued - the poor mage with us - who had only just got to 70th - was in a right state for a while afterwards - although we were all subjected to obnoxious rants through whisper for a while afterwards - ah the joys of "ignore").

 

So - assuming that there will *always* be some people like that around, I would suggest that the personal only numbers are the way to go.

 

Edit.

 

I've just thought of a (small) counter argument - running UBRS as a paladin, one of the other characters started screaming that the paladins should be helping out with healing.... until it was pointed out that not only had my character been keeping up with damage (gotta love consecrate when inflicting damage in iddy biddy spiders) but had healed more that the off healer had done.

 

On that one occasion it actually helped - in that it could prove how much healing/damage was being done - but that was once in 6+ years.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Colow_Leper

[mufutiz]

i really just want a combat log.

 

All this discussion about dps meters and parsing makes me a sad panda.

 

combat logs belong in an MMO like a minimap and a chat window do.

 

It's quite insane to even launch a MMO without a fully functional combat log but apparently the elitist attitude surrounding oog parsing and third party dps meters etc is standing in the way of supplying players with one of the most basic, yet pivotal tools in game that is ALL about the numbers as far as combat is concerned? (well, since Everquest in '99 at least because I don't think any MMO launched without a combat log after)

 

 

that's just weak. Apparently Bioware made this game exclusively for the casual / carebear / longtime Bioware (singleplayer) fans, they are COMPLETELY crapping on any players that might just enjoy mmos in general and came here expecting a team devoted to creating the best MMO on the market instead of playing us for a fool.

 

I hope they get their just deserts for it.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mufutiz

[cipher_nemo]

First things first: I'd like to have a combat log, but it's not a huge deal to me.

 

It's quite insane to even launch a MMO without a fully functional combat log ...

 

Not at all. TOR has been plenty successful so far without one. But as any MMO, it will evolve over time so I fully expect to get a combat log at some point in the future.

Edited March 7, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[Thorkir]

I'm fine with personal logs. If it gives me a way to meter my performance, and know whether I'm doing something wrong that isn't obvious, so much the better. Besides, we'll actually be able to get some real theory-crafting going with some hard data.

 

I don't care what the rest of the party/ops are doing, as long as they're doing what they're supposed to do.

[Felioats]

I'd just like to point out that eeeeeeeeeveryone who said I was reading too much into the word "your," even though it was italicized, was dead wrong.

 

Let go of your biases. Let the Words of Zoeller flow through you.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Felioats

[ryathal]

I've seen it in guild - and I've seen it in pugs.

 

In guild (mostly because I was in a guild of older players) the conversation between fights would along the lines of "try casting X just before casting Y - then you can cast Z as an instant to really help the damage" - useful stuff.

 

In pugs it tended to be more along the lines of "OMG U SUCK - L2P N00B!" (my favourite time for that was when the idiot screaming abuse was promtly kicked from the group - and we happily continued - the poor mage with us - who had only just got to 70th - was in a right state for a while afterwards - although we were all subjected to obnoxious rants through whisper for a while afterwards - ah the joys of "ignore").

 

So - assuming that there will *always* be some people like that around, I would suggest that the personal only numbers are the way to go.

 

Edit.

 

I've just thought of a (small) counter argument - running UBRS as a paladin, one of the other characters started screaming that the paladins should be helping out with healing.... until it was pointed out that not only had my character been keeping up with damage (gotta love consecrate when inflicting damage in iddy biddy spiders) but had healed more that the off healer had done.

 

On that one occasion it actually helped - in that it could prove how much healing/damage was being done - but that was once in 6+ years.

 

just because some people might do something bad with something is no reason to ban the whole thing, or should we ban cars because some people use them for bad things?

[Bhaers]

This is all moot.

 

The logs are there in 1.2 on the test server.

The logs are what happen to you alone and do not include what other people do.

You can already parse them with Advanced Combat Tracker.

ACT can pass your details to your raid leader

 

All sides are happy.

 

Those who like parsing their logs to see how they can improve can, Hard core raiders can set up a server to gather everyone's logs and show them to the raid leader, carebears can be protected that nobody will rub their nose in their poopy performance.