Some classes are not worth bringing to ops?

[Eroex]

I'm not talking about current content, it can be done with pretty much any set up.

 

For the next content if nothing changes in the way the classes work and they truly make nightmare mode a nightmare. Class stacking will become a reality. I don't want to turn this into an "i like my friend ill bring him no matter what class he is" type argument. I get that argument and support it. This is reality some classes just don't equal others in operations.

 

What classes are worth bringing, what classes are not worth bringing?

 

for 8 man

 

 

2 sorc healers

 

2 snipers

 

2 mercenaries

 

1 juggernaut tank

 

1 marauder

 

Seems to be one of the best setups. (not the only)

 

You have 2, 20% AOE shields

 

You have the best healers

 

you have 100% armor reduction on the boss, 5, 20% reductions, its confirmed they do stack.

 

You have your in combat rez

 

You have bloodthirst for 4/5 DPS

 

 

 

 

Several other classes/specs don't seem worth bringing.

 

My list of classes that just don't make the cut.

 

Powertech - brings nothing to the table but base class buff and DPS Tanking is good but doesnt bring a strong enough debuff to go on the boss

 

operative - brings in combat and vanish rez, weaker heals, weaker DPS and its based on position. People shouldn't be dying that much.

 

Assassin - In combat rez, can vanish rez, weak DPS, tanking is good but lacks any solid debuffs for the boss.

 

Sorc - DPS isnt worth bringing DPS is all they bring they are also squishy, other classes do just as well or better and bring more utility.

 

Merc healers arent as strong as sorcs

 

Juggernaut DPS is the weakest of all of the classes.

 

 

Any thoughts on this. Am I dead wrong? Remember this isn't me bashing some classes, this is me saying hey some classes need to be tweaked to make them more useful in operations and I'm trying to get feed back.

 

Edit: I'm not talking about giving each class a unique ability I'm just asking for some equality between the classes

Edited March 6, 2012 by Eroex

[hadoken]

For the next content if nothing changes in the way the classes work and they truly make nightmare mode a nightmare.

 

I bolded the part where you should have realized you have no reason to fear...yet.

 

We know for a fact things will be changing for classes as well as content.

[Eroex]

I bolded the part where you should have realized you have no reason to fear...yet.

 

We know for a fact things will be changing for classes as well as content.

 

I have yet to see anything that will nullify anything that I have said.

 

Based on the live stream that talked pretty much exclusively about the next 2 patches there wont be any significant class changes.

[hadoken]

I have yet to see anything that will nullify anything that I have said.

 

Based on the live stream that talked pretty much exclusively about the next 2 patches there wont be any significant class changes.

 

Without logs much of what you said is irrelevant anyway as it's just...made up. I'm not saying you can't post, I don't have that power. I just don't think it's something you can really worry about honestly at this point. We'll see what happens when we get the tools (and changes) to...see what happens.

[Eroex]

Without logs much of what you said is irrelevant anyway as it's just...made up. I'm not saying you can't post, I don't have that power. I just don't think it's something you can really worry about honestly at this point. We'll see what happens when we get the tools (and changes) to...see what happens.

 

You don't need logs to get a good grasp of what damage each class does, I'm sick of this uninformed argument.

 

 

There are people out there that have the ability to record the damage they do via software such as fraps, then review said video and record the data from the SCT

 

These people have a ton of time on their hands and have done the work.

 

here's an example of such work we have an approximation of how much each spec does.

 

No movement fight

Hybrid = 0/13/28

Madness = 3/7/31

Lightning = 3/31/7

Suffusion = 7/18/16

Conduction = 0/25/16

Sith_Sorcerer_Hybrid : 1308 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Madness : 1270 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Lightning : 1256 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Suffusion : 1251 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Conduction : 1136 dps

http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/113/Sage_Sorcerer_113.html

Heavy movement fights

Sith_Sorcerer_Suffusion : 1108 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Hybrid : 1087 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Madness : 1066 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Conduction : 978 dps

Sith_Sorcerer_Lightning : 938 dps

http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/113/Sage_Sorcerer_HeavyMovement_113.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also you dont need any of this to tell that one class doesnt have ANY buffs or debuffs that other classes bring.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Eroex

[EthicsGradient]

you have 100% armor reduction on the boss, 5, 20% reductions, its confirmed they do stack.

 

It's not confirmed that they stack additively rather than multiplicatively. The latter is far more likely given all other forms of stacking in the game.

 

So you're actually getting around 67% armor reduction by stacking 20% x5.

Four stacks would give 59% armor reduction and three stacks 49%.

 

Since an op boss has 35% absorb from armor each 20% reduction will change that to 28%, then 22.4%, 17.9%, 14.3% and 11.5%.

 

 

i.e. the benefit of having more than 3 armor reducing stacks isn't necessarily worth stacking ACs/specs in your Ops group for.

[JoyProtocol]

In terms of min/maxing I can't really disagree.

 

However, and I know it's a dead-horse argument, player skill really matters. Really, really matters - it seems to be more rewarding in this game than in others (Rift comes close, though).

 

So yes - if you have an abstract collection of best players who are best at any class, that seems like a perfect group. Which is a shame, but perhaps inevitable in an MMO.

 

Let me think...

- DPS Juggernaut is simply a tankier DPS, which could be handy on complicated, group damage engagements

 

- Shieldtech Powertech can actually be nice, because due to the shielding mechanic the damage they take should be very, very linear. This is further enhanced by their 4% debuff. As a plus, Grapple is awesome.

 

- DPS Powertech is rumored to be able to reach the same DPS as a Commando in good hands, albeit with a few differences - more affected by anti-melee abilities, and with a higher burst/lower sustain in many situations. Don't quote me on that though.

 

- Healing Merc is awesome, in my opinion, because they never, ever stop healing. They, along with Ops, feature a Tech dispel which Sorcs do not have.

 

- Ops (both types) is in a bad position, I think, as they bring the least to an Ops group. Healing lacks burst (Sorc) or reactivity (merc), and DPS lacks good ranged options (Powertech) or a gap closer (Jugg and others). They, along with Mercs, feature a Tech dispel which Sorcs do not have.

 

- Assassin seems to be a better Scoundrel, without any healing or dispel whatsoever

 

- I was under the impression that DPS sorcs are good. Why not bring them?!

[Toogeloo]

16 man

Assassin Tank

Powertech Tank

2 Sorc Healers

1 Merc Healer

1 Operative Healer

2 Marauders

2 Snipers

3 Arsenal Mercenary

3 Sorcerers

 

WIN

 

 

8 man

Juggernaut Tank

Assassin/Powertech Tank

Sorc Healer

Operative Healer

Marauder

2x Arsenal Mercenary or 1 Merc and 1 Sorc

Sniper

 

WIN

 

 

 

imo...

 

Rule of thumb... avoid melee dps classes except for Marauders (for Bloodthirst).

Edited March 6, 2012 by Toogeloo

[Moondancerbb]

Why would you bring an operative healer at all? What purpose or advantages do you think they have over a sorc or a merc healer?

[Caelrie]

Why would you bring an operative healer at all? What purpose or advantages do you think they have over a sorc or a merc healer?

 

That's probably what he plays and he's making the ops groups.

[Tenacity]

I disagree with your setup.

 

Sorcerors, in my experience, are not the best healers, especially at the hardmode ops level. They're versatile healers, and easy to play, but I've had the most success using mercenaries as main-tank healers. My preferred setup is one mercenary as the main tank healer, and one sorceror for group heals.

 

When it comes to tanks, I'll take a powertech over a juggernaut any day. Juggernauts are too heavily focused on defense, making them prone to spike damage - Powertechs have more reliable damage mitigation via high shield and absorption rates. Powertechs also have better AoE threat generation, and if you're running with only a single tank, it's better to have that than a slight edge in single target threat.

 

For DPS you want more ranged damage dealers than melee in most cases. Melee always ends up taking more damage, is more susceptible to dying, and in most cases doesnt put out any more DPS than a ranged class. Taking at least one sniper is a must, of course, as they provide Ballistic Shield (20% aoe mitigation buff), 5% crit to the group, and shatter shot (-20% armor on the target). Snipers also have extremely powerful AoE - they're arguably the best ranged AoE DPS in the game, especially as engineer spec. They're also some of the top single target damage dealers in the game once geared.

 

Obviously you want one marauder for group buffs (5% class buff, berserk, etc.), at least one mercenary for tracer missile and ranged damage output. My choice for the final DPS slot goes to either a powertech, juggernaut, or assassin, though - since there is occasionally the need for an emergency backup tank.

 

 

 

Preferred setup:

 

Tank: Powertech

Offtank: DPS-Specced Powertech, Juggernaut, or Assassin

Main Healer: Mercenary

Off Healer: Sorceror

DPS 1: Sniper

DPS 2: Sniper

DPS 3: Marauder

DPS 4: Mercenary or Sorceror

[JoyProtocol]

Why would you bring an operative healer at all? What purpose or advantages do you think they have over a sorc or a merc healer?

 

Off the top of my head:

- Energy efficient, never ending HoT

- Endless healing spam in high damage situations (free cast that refreshes on targets 30% or less)

- Cover for interrupt/charge immunity

- Gear variety (some gear is essentially unique to them)

- Stealth rez

- Self dispel

[Toogeloo]

Off the top of my head:

- Energy efficient, never ending HoT

- Endless healing spam in high damage situations (free cast that refreshes on targets 30% or less)

- Cover for interrupt/charge immunity

- Gear variety (some gear is essentially unique to them)

- Stealth rez

- Self dispel

 

^ This...

 

And yeah, guilty. I am an Operative Healer.

[Eroex]

So pretty much what I read from this was a reinforcement of what I wrote, mostly people ignored the point of the post and attempted to push there extremely minor change(s) to the line up. IDK whats up with the second tank thing at all. They even said at the guild summit that the model was for 1 tank 2 healers 5 DPS. You do not need a second tank at all for any fight in this game on 8 man tons of guilds have done every single nightmare boss without a second tank.

 

 

for DPS

 

Operatives

Assassins

powertechs

Juggernauts

 

Not worth bringing over other DPS.

 

Tanks, are about equal but juggernauts have the 20% armor debuff giving them the edge

 

Healers, sorcs are top with mercs being a close second. Operatives are not worth bringing

 

 

 

Now can we debate that or is this the general consensus.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Eroex

[Toogeloo]

IDK whats up with the second tank thing at all. They even said at the guild summit that the model was for 1 tank 2 healers 5 DPS. You do not need a second tank at all for any fight in this game on 8 man tons of guilds have done every single nightmare boss without a second tank.

 

They also stated they plan on moving more into a 2 Tank 2 Healer 4 DPS setup for Operations.

[Shredzz]

powertechs are immense, Tank is great and consistent, pyro(dps) has great burst, i actually think they will turn down pt pyro burst imo.

 

I have yet to see someone beat me as pyro on council. marauders council mobs ofc.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Shredzz

[Urishir]

Off the top of my head:

- Energy efficient, never ending HoT

small heal, mostly useful to proccing upper hand, if i have to cast constantly i hardly use hots at all, too much energy for minimun gain (hard*/nightmare mods)

 

- Endless healing spam in high damage situations (free cast that refreshes on targets 30% or less)

normal mode 2 scoundrel healers from last night (gearing some alts) tank below 30% close to death 2 smugglers spamming said instant heal..tank died..not really useful if people take damage, if not any heal does the same and heals for more

 

- Cover for interrupt/charge immunity

- Gear variety (some gear is essentially unique to them)

- Stealth rez

very useful but perhaps minor exploit

any stealther, if people are dead might be better for dps to do than healer

- Self dispel

also useful

 

i might just be bad

Edited March 7, 2012 by Urishir

[JoyProtocol]

i might just be bad

 

As things are, I wouldn't suggest two Op healers as they are missing a few "oh hey, my DPS just walked into another pull" buttons. They however complement a different healer really well.

[Krytycal]

Pyro powertechs have currently the highest DPS in the game.

[Toogeloo]

What separates Pyro Powertechs from Pyro Mercenaries, ooc?

[hadoken]

What separates Pyro Powertechs from Pyro Mercenaries, ooc?

 

Lack of good synergy between abilities.

[glenbruton]

hypothetical thread. OP must have been bored

[Eroex]

hypothetical thread. OP must have been bored

 

The current state of the game isn't a hypothetical its reality.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Eroex

[Wallach]

I agree with most of it from a min/max perspective. I'm not sure about the MT position; I haven't seen any conclusive evidence of how the armor debuff stacks. Obviously none of the current content really justifies min/maxing classes like this, but if we're assuming future content will, I'd be more wary of tank deaths in progression content (based on what they said they wanted to change about encounter design). If I'm in that kind of content where min/maxing comp is going to be worthwhile, I might take a Vanguard over a Guardian.

 

That said, 1.2 is supposed to be full of class changes - to the point that all ACs in the game are going to have their points refunded rather than just some of them. Hard to speculate how that will affect optimal Operation comps.