Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[Dejoblue]

You're confusing "serious" raiding with "OCD" raiding. I take raiding seriously, read up on strats, even take videos of our runs to look over. But I'm not gonna spend hours parsing combat logs and testing on training dummies to get every last 0.0000000000001% of DPS out of my toon.

 

I'm a serious raider. You "I can't raid with out a combat log" raiders are OCD raiders.

 

When you compete for world first there are no strats to read up on. My guild is going to do that. i know we are the minority but being inherently under-geared and having to work out the strats ourselves and put in the time and effort is what is rewarding for us.

 

We want a challenge, there are two other modes that have no challenge.

[Muertepk]

Citation needed.

 

no citation needed i can confirm the number as fact. and so can any bioware employee and anyone of the 20000+ people who were watching yesterday and the thousands more the ones watching shared live in game the same data.

 

also of note by a HUGE margin 2/3's of level 50 players have 400k credits or less, the multi millionare players a a 1/2 point %

 

another thing is this game isnt for hard core WoW fail raiders its a more casual group experience. or a solo experience. it is obvious to me the OP is one of those anti swtor wow brats on mid winter break attempting to get people up in arms and agree with him/her/it

 

i disagree with every thing the OP said. if the game isnt what you told yourself it would be, as bioware never said it was a extreme violent murder everyone and everything game now did they? no but then again the OP is a obvious fire starter allow me to be one of the buckets of water.

[Drewser]

Who said that at the guild summit? For all we know it could of been a developer put on the spot making up a number.

 

It doesn't site any facts to that quote on that page. I can only take that statement with a grain of salt.

 

I watched the live stream. Gabe was the speaker. It was on a slide in the Ops presentation.

 

Please tell me a compelling reason they would want to lie about it and why they would pick 38%.

[Xanikk]

no citation needed i can confirm the number as fact. and so can any bioware employee and anyone of the 20000+ people who were watching yesterday and the thousands more the ones watching shared live in game the same data.

 

also of note by a HUGE margin 2/3's of level 50 players have 400k credits or less, the multi millionare players a a 1/2 point %

 

Saying it is so doesn't make it true. There is a reason research is backed up by facts. If you can't defend your "facts" then you are just making yourself look like a fool.

[Dejoblue]

I'm not a 'hardcore' raider but I do enjoy raid-level (read: challenging and requiring large groups of people to work together) content.

 

However, as a 'competitive' raider, is it not clear by now that the SWTOR devs simply do not care what you all want / think?

 

Combat logs are as old as online gaming. And yet, here you are months after launch and all they talk about is some hard-to-use, 'write-to-disk', textual format. Essentially, they are saying they will provide all of the tools you need, but they are going to make them so painful to use no one will.

 

Seems like a big FU.

 

Exactly and the only FU back we can give is the exodus of our playerbase and the ridicule we will spread in WoW.

[paladinjb]

There's more money in letting everyone win than forcing people to compete and better themselves. That's the bottom line.

[Blotter]

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO. Hell I wonder how many have played an MMO, in beta they didnt have chat links for gear and didnt seem to understand why the playerbase wanted them. We still dont have linkable weapons. It is small things like this that have me question their philosophy and if they even have a design vision.

 

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

The reason is simple. If you dont have meaningful leaders in the game, guilds competing for world first kills, raids that are difficult enough to merit that kind of competition and the hardcore guilds that strive for such then they will not have masses of players aspiring to be anything within the game and the players will have little investment in their characters.

 

From the Guild Summit:

 

"Darth Hater: Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game."

 

If you dont have threat meters we will have to create asinine thresh-holds such as three sunders. Three sunders is the standard in Classic WoW due to no threat meters.

 

Let me tell you how we did server first Onyxia kills. her knock-back did a threat reduction. So, we began by doing three sunders, that didn't work because of the threat reduction on here wing buffet. Then we realized what happened and we started doing a manual timer count. We would have an announcer tell the entire raid to stop dps after a wing buffet. then count to 7 and then tell the entire raid to begin DPS again. I do not think this type of extreme discipline and being told what to do is going to work hand in hand with the atmosphere that you are trying to develop with this game.

 

So let me continue on with the story of threat meters. There are combat logs in WoW, have been since beta. After Onyxia it was obvious we needed something. SO some clever folks whipped out their hardcore RDX addons, ya know the original boss mods that you had to learn to code and create yourself in game, and decided to go beat on a mob and then see how much damage was needed for that mob to change targets. They did this for every ability in game.....and discovered the threat tables, the inherent threat of abilities, and created the first threat meters. If forget the names but nowadays we have Omen and Skada in WoW. They are great albeit WoW removed the need for threat management when they buffed all tanks including hunter pets 5%.

 

So, you see, we are going to work it out, we require these addons, this knowledge. We are hardcore. Lets talk about the incoming combat logs.

 

You do realise that there are parsers out there such as ACT, which I have used for EVERY SINGLE MMO I HAVE PLAYED(eq2, RIFT, AOC, etc). You realize that you will be writing these player only logs to a text file and that we are used to uploading these combat logs to World of Raids or other similar offline parsers and that these offline parsers allow for multiple uploads of the same encounter so as to get a more accurate picture of what happened because there are some issues such as being too far away from other members to get what they do logged.

 

SO, we will simply have EVERY PLAYER in the raid upload their combat log for the raid to the offline parser, or email it to our guild gmail account and have the leaders upload all of them.

 

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

If you intend to have the current wow model of threat where it doesnt matter, fine no threat meters are great whatever. However, we will find a way to get those combat logs and we will mandate everyone upload their logs to the website etc.

 

You need to decide if this is ok for the reputation of SWTOR because like it or not the behavior of your players is directly related to what you allow them to do and the tools you give them.

 

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

You have a lot riding on 1.2 and the subsequent Tier 2 raids.

 

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

I don't consider you a "serious raider" or a "hardcore" player if you feel you need a dps meter and threat meter in order to complete content. Trial and error and learn it the hard way or you are not, by definition, "hardcore." Rather, you are a player who needs to rely on a crutch. Period.

 

Did Super Mario Brothers have jumping timers or a buzzer that went off when you superspeed ran really fast and needed a cue to hit the jump button in time? No. You died. You died repeatedly until you learned it. You died repeatedly until you got frustrated sometimes. It shouldn't be any different in this or any other game if you truly want to EARN bragging rights for having completed content.

 

Only players whose skills are crippled need crutches.

[lollermittens]

Thank you. Thank you for making a sensible and much needed post.

 

Don't let the droves of bads and casuals get you down by making you believe we don't need these tools.

 

Any self-respectable MMO player who is interested in improving his damage and play-ability is 100% interested in those kind of number-crunching statistics. They're very important if you're trying to min-max.

 

The fools who would claim otherwise are the same that don't want to be singled out in a raid for doing crappy damage. It is embarrassing to be called out in Ventrilo for doing bad damage in an easy game: it just proves you're a bad player. And there's nothing wrong with that. You're wasting the time of 7 or 15 other people. It's only fair that your performance metrics should be made public for everyone else in the group. If you are dragging everyone down with your crappy healing or bad DPS'ing (bad Tanking is a lot easier to see), then yes, collectively as a group you should get scolded and room should be made for someone who knows what they're doing.

 

Take that time you got kicked out of that raid to go learn some thing about your class; watch some videos; or go read up on some builds. Don't blame your inefficiency and your general poor gameplay on others when it's 100% your fault.

Edited March 6, 2012 by lollermittens

[Calimwulf]

To clarify I am against dungeon finder but for logs and addons etc. My point was that there doesn't seem to be a vision, a direction. If there was a direction then these things would work themselves out and not be contradictory.

There will be combat logs that will allow parsing, but not in game meters. Those things are crutches anyway. Let's see what their new GUI looks and plays like before asking for more. They have a direction they are going, you just don't like all of it

[Asavar]

>Complains about no threat meter

>Claims swtor has no serious raiding.

 

 

[Vorphalack]

There's more money in letting everyone win than forcing people to compete and better themselves.

 

The falling subscriber numbers of WoW and TOR would like a word with you.

[Nytak]

Yet oddly enough, my guild is working its way through operations without all of these necessary tools that "serious raiders" need to perform.

 

I'm perfectly happy with in game visual queues for things like boss abilities and threat. All I need is some little blinking red thing down where the eyeball above the ability bar is to tell me to lay off the dps a tad and viola. Somehow, I think that is what BW has in mind.

[Blotter]

When you compete for world first there are no strats to read up on. My guild is going to do that. i know we are the minority but being inherently under-geared and having to work out the strats ourselves and put in the time and effort is what is rewarding for us.

 

We want a challenge, there are two other modes that have no challenge.

 

You want a "world's first"? Do it the old fashioned way: EARN it. Guess what? You'll be on equal footing with every other guild out therewho also doesn't have combat log/dps meters to parse in real time while trying brand new content. You'll have a level playing field to compete with them on...so prove you're better by beating them to the finish line. Or don't...and cry that it was because you didn't hve a crutch. Last time I checked, races aren't really won by those with crutches. You want raiding to be the special olympics?

[Blotter]

The falling subscriber numbers of WoW and TOR would like a word with you.

 

The complete and utter absence of any data to support your statement would like a word with you.

[Dejoblue]

I think that the overall problem is that the Operations aren't difficult enough to even bother needing combat logs or a threat meter. I wish they were...

 

EXACTLY. They are not difficult enough to merit any addons or logs.

 

If they get serious they will need to have such tools. If they do not we will figure it out. That is the whole point of my post.

 

Do you want the reputation of a having our guild, leader a former Ranger instructor, or some similar raid leader barking orders at your raid as to when to dps and when to stop dps because there is no threat meter in game? That is old school hardcore QQ causing casual eating mentality.

 

I do not think they want that reputation. THUS they will have to provide us with the tools. GIMPED tools will only make the work more difficult.

 

At the moment I think the developers are in over their heads.

 

If any developer is reading this and wants to know how other WOW systems developed over time I am more than willing to talk to you.

 

Basically as posted with the OP, there is only one outcome and you need to know what it is going to be and decide if that is ok for the reputation of SWTOR, for the mental health of the playerbase and the benefit of the community at large, or if one way is going to be more divisive than another.

[Vorphalack]

The complete and utter absence of any data to support your statement would like a word with you.

 

The vast and noticable drop off in general, guild and pvp activity accross all servers would like a word with you.

[Dejoblue]

>Complains about no threat meter

>Claims swtor has no serious raiding.

 

 

 

I am not complaining about threat meters. I am claiming that they need to go full hog and have full blown logs because we will work around whatever they give us.

 

My overall point is about the reputation of SWTOR and the division of the community.

[kevlarto]

I have raided in mmo's for 14+ years never used a dps meter of any kind, we all learned to play our toons, I enjoy seeing the game and the mob i am fighting, not watching meters and standing in the stupid.. but tha'st my personal view, if your a fan of meters, enjoy them, I know my skills as a gmers will trump your silly meters any day of the week have proved over and over again.. I am gamer not a meter reader.. LOL

[Xanikk]

The vast and noticable drop off in general, guild and pvp activity accross all servers would like a word with you.

 

Yeah I can only speak for myself but I notice my server's population is dropping. People are getting bored with the game.

 

The amount of focus they are putting on solo friendly content and immediate gratification can only harm this game in the long run. They will not build long time subscribers on this model.

[Blotter]

The vast and noticable drop off in general, guild and pvp activity accross all servers would like a word with you.

 

The illogic of assuming that means people unsubbed as opopsed to just cut down on their hours of play while waiting for new content would like a word with you.

[Xanikk]

The illogic of assuming that means people unsubbed as opopsed to just cut down on their hours of play while waiting for new content would like a word with you.

 

Yeah it's too bad bioware won't let us know how many people are really subscribed. You know they won't tell us if numbers did go down. Got to keep up that positive image despite reality!

[Drewser]

Yeah I can only speak for myself but I notice my server's population is dropping. People are getting bored with the game.

 

The amount of focus they are putting on solo friendly content and immediate gratification can only harm this game in the long run. They will not build long time subscribers on this model.

 

Again, of the 38% at 50 that have done Ops - what percentage are this fabled hard core that are "leaving in droves'?

[Vorphalack]

The illogic of assuming that means people unsubbed as opopsed to just cut down on their hours of play while waiting for new content would like a word with you.

 

The utter stupidity of paying monthly for a game you dont play would like a word with you.

[Blotter]

Yeah it's too bad bioware won't let us know how many people are really subscribed. You know they won't tell us if numbers did go down. Got to keep up that positive image despite reality!

 

Now that's just tinfoil hat stuff right there.

[Xneco]

I don't consider you a "serious raider" or a "hardcore" player if you feel you need a dps meter and threat meter in order to complete content. Trial and error and learn it the hard way or you are not, by definition, "hardcore." Rather, you are a player who needs to rely on a crutch. Period.

 

Did Super Mario Brothers have jumping timers or a buzzer that went off when you superspeed ran really fast and needed a cue to hit the jump button in time? No. You died. You died repeatedly until you learned it. You died repeatedly until you got frustrated sometimes. It shouldn't be any different in this or any other game if you truly want to EARN bragging rights for having completed content.

 

Only players whose skills are crippled need crutches.

 

 

Don't think we are talking about a Deadly Boss Mod add-on here, that basically plays the game for you. Just a good way to evaluated what the **** is going on... damage in/damage out etc...