L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 But I don't care if you have better gear than me because you put in more effort and did your pvp in an 8 man instead of solo. I just don't want you to be able to ruin the pvp fun I'm having by wiping the floor with me because you're wearing that gear when you're fighting me! If you think PvP gear is why all the face stomping is going on, then you have dismissed all logic and mathematics that RPG's are based on... They have made it easy now... All the casual PvPers (only PvP) rejoice, but the face stomp and butt-hurt will continue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Sookie Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 If you think PvP gear is why all the face stomping is going on, then you have dismissed all logic and mathematics that RPG's are based on... They have made it easy now... All the casual PvPers (only PvP) rejoice, but the face stomp and butt-hurt will continue.... No point arguing. Next they will blame class imbalances, imperial bias, exploiters, premades using voice com etc etc. Like those champion geared players who honestly beleive their premade is losing 0-6 in huttball because the other team has 4 battlemasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) No point arguing. Next they will blame class imbalances, imperial bias, exploiters, premades using voice com etc etc. Like those champion geared players who honestly beleive their premade is losing 0-6 in huttball because the other team has 4 battlemasters. Agreed... All the conversation goes back to is them treating gear like it is exclusive, or complaining that grinding takes too long... Here is my advice: go do your stats homework, then tell me why the faceroll is going on... Once you figure that out, you'll quickly learn that it has nothing to to with PvP gear progression.... Edited March 8, 2012 by L-RANDLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) But it is what this thread is about. Then you don't understand this thread then. We want progression, we don't want the game to have a ceiling. People have to understand their is no class balance, there will always be disparity between class because optimal balance in a abstract concept. Its not possible. So progression allows us to overcome the system inherent flaws. I don't care if its gear or skill points or whatever but it will suck to have to reroll all the time when the designers create a balance issue with each new patch. I want my character story to continue. If he never changes the story is over. Some of my favorite heroes would train and get new abilities in their story. It was cool, it made that hero compelling that he trained harder than everyone else and kicked ***. Edited March 8, 2012 by ohnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyrLXXVII Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Then you don't understand this thread then. We want progression, we don't want the game to have a ceiling. People have to understand their is no class balance, there will always be disparity between class because optimal balance in a abstract concept. Its not possible. So progression allows us to overcome the system inherent flaws. I don't care if its gear or skill points or whatever but it will suck to have to reroll all the time when the designers create a balance issue with each new patch. I want my character story to continue. If he never changes the story is over. Some of my favorite heroes would train and get new abilities in their story. It was cool, it made that hero compelling that he trained harder than everyone else and kicked ***. Lol, gear progression is there to counter class imbalance? Wow, that's funny. The gear babies can be so completely deluded sometimes. Gear progression is about two things, new shinies and having a stat advantage for easier faceroll. That's all its ever been about and all it ever will be about. New shinies are fine though, its fun to get new semi-exclusive stuff, just don't put stats on it. You can't claim gear progression is a counter to class imbalance is so pathetically stupid unless the the 'OP' classes don't have the option for the same lvl gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 But even if there were different choices, how would you feel about being above everyone else based on stats and abilities to the point that they almost certainly wouldn't present a challenge to you? It wouldn't be your skill that won the battle for you anymore. Based on your previous answers, it seems to me that you would prefer a system that constantly offered you more and more challenges as you got better and your character progressed, rather than one that took them away as your character progressed. If that is the case (please let me know), I do have a system in mind based on your interests that I would like to lay out for you and see what you think. Sure, post it and I would review your idea. Now make sure your idea gives progression to all. If I do activity x it would be the same if another player did activity x. Remember its the illusion of progression we are looking for. I don't need to destroy anyone, skill and practice should allow me to do that anyway. Also take into account if the designers introduce class imbalances. How would compensate for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Lol, gear progression is there to counter class imbalance? Wow, that's funny. The gear babies can be so completely deluded sometimes. Gear progression is about two things, new shinies and having a stat advantage for easier faceroll. That's all its ever been about and all it ever will be about. New shinies are fine though, its fun to get new semi-exclusive stuff, just don't put stats on it. You can't claim gear progression is a counter to class imbalance is so pathetically stupid unless the the 'OP' classes don't have the option for the same lvl gear. Why do you keep saying gear? It could be about talents points. It just has to be progression. This is a mmo world, why do pve'rs get the option to progress while pvp don't according to you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinity Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 why do pve'rs get the option to progress while pvp don't according to you guys. The better question is, why aren't you pushing for forms of advancement that better fit the spirit of the content? Rankings, leaderboards, vanity items, titles, mounts, forms of recognition, etc. Why does advancement have to mean that because you farmed Ilum longer you get an advantage over other people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) The better question is, why aren't you pushing for forms of advancement that better fit the spirit of the content? Rankings, leaderboards, vanity items, titles, mounts, forms of recognition, etc. Why does advancement have to mean that because you farmed Ilum longer you get an advantage over other people? I don't care about epeen stuff. I just care about my character getting better. Maybe it doesn't have to be a grind but make the game add skill challenges you have to pass that allows access to gear or stat points or whatever. Maybe you just get certain medal count to open stuff. You have to make it very challenging because if it takes very little effort then its not worth it. The current mmo trend is to make you grind it out because it make customers stick around longer. Edited March 8, 2012 by ohnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 The better question is, why aren't you pushing for forms of advancement that better fit the spirit of the content? Rankings, leaderboards, vanity items, titles, mounts, forms of recognition, etc. Why does advancement have to mean that because you farmed Ilum longer you get an advantage over other people? And Ilum was only available to farmers with no lives, other than farming... Another who believes PvP gear has everything to do with the facerolling going on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicain Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) The better question is, why aren't you pushing for forms of advancement that better fit the spirit of the content? Rankings, leaderboards, vanity items, titles, mounts, forms of recognition, etc. Why does advancement have to mean that because you farmed Ilum longer you get an advantage over other people? Because when someone invests more into thing A than person B did, they have an advantage in thing A. I like the PVP aspect of the game over the PVE one, so I think the Rataka gear is to hard to get and someone who spends more time farming HM OPS shouldn't have a gear advantage over me. I bet if they were going to make THAT change you'd be crying about it. Point is you don't like losing in PVP because you can't HANDLE getting beaten by another person in a game, so this is how you resolve to fix it. When you keep losing, you'll want nerfs for all the classes that can kill you. Edited March 8, 2012 by Averran insult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manigma Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 We have to get rid of this idiotic get reward for grinding mentality. If a game can compel its players to play only by rewarding them with gear for X amount of time played, then the game is not really worth playing. Ever seen people racking up hundreds of hours in games because those are fun? Take Team Fortress for example, it has a crapload of content to unlock, yet the game is genuinely fun without all the unlocks. The rewards are just a byproduct. The aim is to have fun, not to grind gear. Problem is the so called hardcore players have simply been mind conditioned, brainwashed for over 20 years now with these sort of things in MMOs. You have been conditioned to this state to the point that simply playing for the sake of challenge is no longer fun for you. If you demand rewards for having a no life, then you should really reconsider your priorities in this very life. You can't really compare TF2 though as all the unlocks only give a slight advantage if any - you can pwnface from the very start. In this game there are stat ramps that of course you will want to get to be as strong as possible. It is not about players being brainwashed it is how the game is designed, we are playing to the design of the game we can't magically remove stats from the better gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 you see im at a point where i dont rly care anymore. I afk , yeah , so what lol? Losing or winning carry almost no gap , 4 medals and afk is actually much better than get 4 medals and win. When the new gear hits , this will become even better lol. Is this supposed to be an argument? Or even english? We have to get rid of this idiotic get reward for grinding mentality. If a game can compel its players to play only by rewarding them with gear for X amount of time played, then the game is not really worth playing. Ever seen people racking up hundreds of hours in games because those are fun? Take Team Fortress for example, it has a crapload of content to unlock, yet the game is genuinely fun without all the unlocks. The rewards are just a byproduct. The aim is to have fun, not to grind gear. Problem is the so called hardcore players have simply been mind conditioned, brainwashed for over 20 years now with these sort of things in MMOs. You have been conditioned to this state to the point that simply playing for the sake of challenge is no longer fun for you. If you demand rewards for having a no life, then you should really reconsider your priorities in this very life. Exactly. Keep pulling the lever on your Skinner boxes, people. You can't really compare TF2 though as all the unlocks only give a slight advantage if any - you can pwnface from the very start. In this game there are stat ramps that of course you will want to get to be as strong as possible. It is not about players being brainwashed it is how the game is designed, we are playing to the design of the game we can't magically remove stats from the better gear. No, he's right on the money with TF2, which has the best unlock system I've seen in any multiplayer game - you don't unlock better stuff - you unlock playstyle options. You play TF2 for fun, not to "progress." You get nothing for winning or losing a round. I want my character story to continue. If he never changes the story is over. Some of my favorite heroes would train and get new abilities in their story. It was cool, it made that hero compelling that he trained harder than everyone else and kicked ***. Your character has no story in PvP. None whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Is this supposed to be an argument? Or even english? Your character has no story in PvP. None whatsoever. In my head he does. I play on a rp server so I rp it. Just because you don't think he does, he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 In my head he does. I play on a rp server so I rp it. Just because you don't think he does, he does. Bioware put story for everything in this game. Even the Operations have story quests. None for PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyrLXXVII Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Why do you keep saying gear? It could be about talents points. It just has to be progression. This is a mmo world, why do pve'rs get the option to progress while pvp don't according to you guys. Simple, to make more pve content they have to make bosses that hit harder or have more HP. So they continue a gear stat progression. No such concept in pvp, the only difference in challenge should be skill level of the players involved. Why should one player have a gear or relented point, or any stat advantage over another player? There is no reasoning for that when the point of pvp is to say 'I got skills and am better then you' or simply for a real challenge. What's the point of saying 'I'm better then you because my gear is better'. And the way mmos work you can't ever claim yoy have better gear because you are more skilled, because anyone with enough playtime gets the same gear even if they lose every match they ever play. Stat advantages in pvp are never a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Simple, to make more pve content they have to make bosses that hit harder or have more HP. So they continue a gear stat progression. No such concept in pvp, the only difference in challenge should be skill level of the players involved. Why should one player have a gear or relented point, or any stat advantage over another player? There is no reasoning for that when the point of pvp is to say 'I got skills and am better then you' or simply for a real challenge. What's the point of saying 'I'm better then you because my gear is better'. And the way mmos work you can't ever claim yoy have better gear because you are more skilled, because anyone with enough playtime gets the same gear even if they lose every match they ever play. Stat advantages in pvp are never a good idea. SMH........ Even though "stat advantage" don't mean anything in quite a few cases? If you are good, then gear advantage don't matter in most cases.. "Real challange"? There goes your hypocrisy again...... "Challange". Does that make you happy? Really? Please realize you have just NERFED the challange that you like so much when you "even" the playing field, so just stop with that crap.... "Skills"? Yeah, takes a ton of skill to spam buttonx.... I bet you remember me now..... Complain that post 50 crafting sucks, that's a much better argument.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockerz Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I think Darth_Sookie has a really cool forum name, but that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyrLXXVII Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 SMH........ Even though "stat advantage" don't mean anything in quite a few cases? If you are good, then gear advantage don't matter in most cases.. "Real challange"? There goes your hypocrisy again...... "Challange". Does that make you happy? Really? Please realize you have just NERFED the challange that you like so much when you "even" the playing field, so just stop with that crap.... "Skills"? Yeah, takes a ton of skill to spam buttonx.... I bet you remember me now..... Complain that post 50 crafting sucks, that's a much better argument.... No skill? No challenge? I see plenty of skills and challenge when another player flat out plays me with his abilities. Your example of spamming one button is actually a perfect example, I know anyone that spams one button I will dominate. But if someone utilizes all their class abilities better then i use mine and they beat me, he just beat me with skill. That's awesome and I can even learn to be better from it. But if its because he does more damage thanks to more stats... Fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 No skill? No challenge? I see plenty of skills and challenge when another player flat out plays me with his abilities. Your example of spamming one button is actually a perfect example, I know anyone that spams one button I will dominate. But if someone utilizes all their class abilities better then i use mine and they beat me, he just beat me with skill. That's awesome and I can even learn to be better from it. But if its because he does more damage thanks to more stats... Fail. So which is it? Assuming you are at a gear disadvantage, you beat down ANYONE (BM included) that is a spammer? So I guess that stat advantage don't mean spit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) So which is it? Assuming you are at a gear disadvantage, you beat down ANYONE (BM included) that is a spammer? So I guess that stat advantage don't mean spit? Gear + skill > gear Gear + skill > skill Skill is sometimes > gear, but sometimes not. Depends on the gear and skill gap on a case by case basis. This isn't difficult. You're trying to make some kind of generalization but it isn't working. Edited March 8, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinity Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Because when someone invests more into thing A than person B did, they have an advantage in thing A. Sure. In skill. I like the PVP aspect of the game over the PVE one, so I think the Rataka gear is to hard to get and someone who spends more time farming HM OPS shouldn't have a gear advantage over me. Rakata is already amazingly easy to get. Much easier than Battlemaster gear, in fact. So go for it, farm that stuff up. =D Besides, I've never PvEed for gear. I've always played for the progression and inter-guild competition. Performing better and progressing by improving my skills as a player - both on a personal and a team level - was always my focus there, as it is in PvP. Not just pulling in a bunch of gear and then bragging that I out DPS'ed some fresh level 85. Point is you don't like losing in PVP because you can't HANDLE getting beaten by another person in a game, so this is how you resolve to fix it. Huh? I already have (almost) all of my gear, and I'm not worried in the least about getting beaten by "gear donkeys" that want PvP to be all about stats. When you keep losing, you'll want nerfs for all the classes that can kill you. Hell, half the time I'm worried my own class is gonna be the one that eats a nerf, judging by how I'm rolling people most of the time. =D So again, why the extreme focus on gear and artificial advantages? If you want "advancement", why not get it in a competitive format via ratings or leaderboards and whatnot? Edited March 8, 2012 by Bovinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Gear + skill > gear Gear + skill > skill Skill is sometimes > gear, but sometimes not. Depends on the gear and skill gap on a case by case basis. This isn't difficult. You're trying to make some kind of generalization but it isn't working. You are generalizing just as much as I am.... Your comparision assumes skill levels are the same... Sometimes: All Gear+Little Skill < No(Low level) Gear + Leet Skill No one complaining is really willing to admit that that stat advantage could possibly have nothing to do with it.... Edited March 8, 2012 by L-RANDLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) You are generalizing just as much as I am.... Your comparision assumes skill levels are the same... Uh...no. That's not what I'm always assuming. In fact I'm specifically indicating otherwise sometimes through the inequalities. Did you intentionally misinterpret what I was saying or are you actually unable to comprehend it? Edited March 8, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Why would you guys even want special OP'd gear? You guys play more than the rest of us, you don't need to have better gear than us too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts