Combat logs 1.2. Parsable outside of game.

[Chaede]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve. That's just not how it works now. Don't fool yourselves, you all know it's no longer any kind of teaching, or improvement tool.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

 

QFT. This is how they end up getting used by majority of the game base. Then encounters start getting tuned around DPS meters. Then people play their classes sub optimally to make it about the numbers rather than about teamwork. DPS meters and dps racing encourages people not to use the support features of their class to help the rest of the group. It encourages people not to be the one who losses dps by throughing an emergency heal or cc an add etc.

 

DPS meters do not help groups play better, they only help individuals who care about having the highest numbers. DPS meters have never downed a boss. Used to be possible to pick good and bad players before they came into wow in raids, its still possible now.

 

DPS meters are also used as a 'my class should be buffed cause we are lower than X class' there will always a be a lowest DPS class and meters are often used to force dps players of that class to respec to heals, tank or reroll 'cause they don't have as big numbers as every other class'

 

DPS Meters do not improve the game, they only make oyu feel better cause you now have better numbers than the next guy. Too bad the raid wiped cause you didn't cc the add or toss the emergency heal when needed, but hey, at least you got the highest numbers!

Edited March 5, 2012 by Chaede

[Halacs]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve. That's just not how it works now. Don't fool yourselves, you all know it's no longer any kind of teaching, or improvement tool.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

 

You are so so wrong.

 

I used them in every MMO that had them and never trashed on anyone, unless it was a friend that I was competing with of corse.

 

More often then not I get flamed for even offering a suggestion to a PUG.

 

But go ahead and assume people get dumped on for "0.02 less DPS". The only drama I see here about DPS is from you.

[testszag]

Hours?

 

Seriously now. While I have no doubt you have stood at a training dummy and helped people, please don't try to make it out to be an Olympic-level event.

 

right?

 

this is a game, and i play to have fun. as long as i am cpable of taking care of business, who cares if i am able to do %.5 more dps? (that question's rhetorical. i am well aware that some of you really believe that that .5 is needed.)

Edited March 5, 2012 by testszag

[Raeln]

You are so so wrong.

 

I used them in every MMO that had them and never trashed on anyone, unless it was a friend that I was competing with of corse.

 

More often then not I get flamed for even offering a suggestion to a PUG.

 

But go ahead and assume people get dumped on for "0.02 less DPS". The only drama I see here about DPS is from you.

 

I've seen it.

 

I haven't seen a terrible amount of outright rude behavior from it, but I've seen mountains of "implied" statements arising from it.

 

I have witnessed a metric ton of times where fellow group/raid members got tunnel vision from focusing on the meter though - and then the linking of meters. Had a guildie one time that would post a meter to guildchat after every single boss kill, even if he was in a pug.

[Chaede]

You are so so wrong.

 

I used them in every MMO that had them and never trashed on anyone, unless it was a friend that I was competing with of corse.

 

More often then not I get flamed for even offering a suggestion to a PUG.

 

But go ahead and assume people get dumped on for "0.02 less DPS". The only drama I see here about DPS is from you.

 

Problem is you are the exception. Go to any MMO forum with dps meters enabled. It becomes about the numbers not about the game, teamwork or actually just playing. Read my above post as to why dps meters become toxic and encourage single mindedness that detracts from game play. Raiding should be about the encounters and teamwork, not about watching numbers.

[JediElf]

You are so so wrong.

 

I used them in every MMO that had them and never trashed on anyone, unless it was a friend that I was competing with of corse.

 

More often then not I get flamed for even offering a suggestion to a PUG.

 

But go ahead and assume people get dumped on for "0.02 less DPS". The only drama I see here about DPS is from you.

 

Hey, the fact that you use the meters right, makes you one of the good guys.

 

I guess I'm just passionate about this, because I've seen the wreckage that those, meters can cause. I guess watching Recount, decimate WOW (and a few other games), can leave ya a bit jaded sometimes.

 

I'm 100% for this whole Parser thing. Parsers are fantastic tools and can be used by smart guilds and smart players.

 

I'm not against personal meters, and not against guild meters, I just dread the day that Recount makes it here.

 

That won't be a good day.

[Halacs]

Hey, the fact that you use the meters right, makes you one of the good guys.

 

I guess I'm just passionate about this, because I've seen the wreckage that those, meters can cause. I guess watching Recount, decimate WOW (and a few other games), can leave ya a bit jaded sometimes.

 

I'm 100% for this whole Parser thing. Parsers are fantastic tools and can be used by smart guilds and smart players.

 

I'm not against personal meters, and not against guild meters, I just dread the day that Recount makes it here.

 

That won't be a good day.

 

I can't disagree with you that it can be used badly. I have seen this happen when some gent on an OP class who out gears the place is raging on others for being low DPS.

 

I'm just not a fan of not having a tool to use the proper way due to others being jerks.

 

Punishing the class of 31 for the three in the back tossing spit balls, ya know?

 

The people I play with and associate with in game (all of he MMO's I've played) do not call pugs down. Only guild mates in good fun.

 

I feel they should just implement a "share parse info" button in the options. On, it puts info to an in-game DPS meter that is shared with the group. Off, well.....it's off to all but you.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Halacs

[testszag]

.............I feel they should just implement a "share parse info" button in the options. On, it puts info to an in-game DPS meter. Off, well.....it's off to all.

 

 

this. if people want to let others see, or require that you allow them to see them to join their guild, more power to em. let those of us who just don't care about that aspect turn it off.

[Jederix]

^This^

 

What a PITA. Why not just give us meters. I want to know who is failing so I can help them get better.

 

Yes, but for every 1 of you, there are 10 douchebags who want a meter so they can spam it and ridicule everyone who isn't doing as good as them in a poor attempt to boost an ego they are unable to possess in the real world. This is where the friction toward the tool comes in.

[Halacs]

Yes, but for every 1 of you, there are 10 douchebags who want a meter so they can spam it and ridicule everyone who isn't doing as good as them in a poor attempt to boost an ego they are unable to possess in the real world. This is where the friction toward the tool comes in.

 

Citation?

[Kesherao]

Question for the community minions: Do you think that there is someone on forums complaining about dps-meters that is a good dpser in other mmorpgs? Or are they all just sucking terribly or at some point they sucked so terribly that it turned into a traumatic experience? Or are they just altruistic gamers...

 

lol, altruistic gamers...

 

...towards other nubs who might go through the scarring trauma of being a nub dpser in a mmorpg and they're just trying to protect them?

 

Anti dps-meters, you're writing blablabla, but all I see is "I suck at games and not willing to get better".

Edited March 5, 2012 by Kesherao

[Halacs]

Question for the community minions: Do you think that there is someone on forums complaining about dps-meters that is a good dpser in other mmorpgs? Or are they all just sucking terribly or at some point they sucked so terribly that it turned into a traumatic experience? Or are they just altruistic gamers...

 

lol, altruistic gamers...

 

...towards other nubs who might go through the scarring trauma of being a nub dpser in a mmorpg and they're just trying to ptoect them?

 

Go upstairs and get a hug from your mother. You need one.

[HKDeath]

This "parsable outside of the game" crap is just an obviously half baked way to do this.

 

We all knew deep down Bioware was going to botch it somehow, and they did.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the parsable combat log is also running on a seperate .exe or something. I don't think their engine could handle it on it's own.

 

And from March to early April now.... lol @ trying to scam for just 1 more month of subbing from people on the fence Bioware. We saw that little trick coming too.

 

So when does GW2 come out?

[Oldrippie]

IMO, if you want to go into an 8 man or 16 man raid in a "marginal" or crappy spec, go through the motions and not actually try to be better and work to get the content down, then you are the jerk, because the 7-15 others are having to pull extra weight because "you dont like the pressure."

 

Another thing stated in the livestream was that they felt normal mode was too easy, easy to the point where the whole difficulty level is being renamed to STORY MODE. For those that havent played any other RPGs, story mode means you can only have Thumb-pinky on one hand and still win. Nightmare mode and hard mode will be stepped up in future content. This is going to be a very elitist statement meant in a non-elitist way: don't come in my raids unless you intend to perform, I don't want to bang heads against a boss for 4 hours because you don't have the guts to show your meters.

[testszag]

IMO, if you want to go into an 8 man or 16 man raid in a "marginal" or crappy spec, go through the motions and not actually try to be better and work to get the content down, then you are the jerk, because the 7-15 others are having to pull extra weight because "you dont like the pressure."

 

Another thing stated in the livestream was that they felt normal mode was too easy, easy to the point where the whole difficulty level is being renamed to STORY MODE. For those that havent played any other RPGs, story mode means you can only have Thumb-pinky on one hand and still win. Nightmare mode and hard mode will be stepped up in future content. This is going to be a very elitist statement meant in a non-elitist way: don't come in my raids unless you intend to perform, I don't want to bang heads against a boss for 4 hours because you don't have the guts to show your meters.

 

as others have stated, if you do not realize that th dpser that is with you all the way to the boss isn't holding his/her own before you hit the boss, you may need to reevaluate what it means to be a good player.

[Squatdog_nz]

I'd like to say the following:

 

1- Thank God we finally get a combat log and (eventually) a damage meter

 

2- Bad Players are going to be very upset.

 

3- WTB Recount!

[Karandor]

If the data is written to disk in real-time there will be plenty of tools to process it in real-time for raid nerds.

 

 

 

I played MMOs before damage meters existed so I really don't give a **** except for how it can improve my own performance.

[terminova]

BS.

 

1) if a raid leader accepts an unknown player (ie: never seen them play), that's on the raid leader.

 

2) If the raid leader cannot assess the player by inspecting them and (if need be) doing a performance test duel, then the raid leader is the fail, not the game.

 

lolduel

[genesiser]

What's to stop people from using a parser, copying the info, then pasting it in chat log for the entire group to see it? The guy never said you could ONLY see your own data.

 

Since you will still get the data with people copy and pasting it, what's so bad about real time damage meters? You'll get the info either way. Might as well let people see it in real time so they can compete with each other. The only difference is now you have people say, "BRB" and you'll have to wait for them to alt tab the game, parse the data, then look at it. With real time meters you just stop for a quick second and look.

[terminova]

What's to stop people from using a parser, copying the info, then pasting it in chat log for the entire group to see it? The guy never said you could ONLY see your own data.

 

Since you will still get the data with people copy and pasting it, what's so bad about real time damage meters? You'll get the info either way. Might as well let people see it in real time so they can compete with each other. The only difference is now you have people say, "BRB" and you'll have to wait for them to alt tab the game, parse the data, then look at it. With real time meters you just stop for a quick second and look.

 

There's no need for DPS races or epeen contests in the middle of dungeon runs, or berating someone else because their DPS was lower than someone else's.

[Akash]

Hours?

 

Seriously now. While I have no doubt you have stood at a training dummy and helped people, please don't try to make it out to be an Olympic-level event.

 

Yes, hours.

 

That's part of being in a progression guild that knows what's going on and uses the right tool for the right job. Instead of just saying "your dps isn't good enough to roll with us", we help folks to maximize their characters. In the end, we all progress faster and have excellent retention.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Akash

[Glock_]

couldnt they just have made a checkbox ingame "share/dont share logs" ?

 

I play a dps, its my job to try to outperform the others. Other then not standing in fires, and making my tank not use to many of his taunts So why shouldnt i be able to compare it in game? Hell even just for bragging

[eudaemonea]

Too many people use an in game damage/healing meter type mod as a way to lord it over others. It's a number. It shows you absolutely nothing about cooldown usage, hot/dot uptimes, damage taken, spell procs, uptime on trinket usage, etc that you'll get from an actual parse.

 

World of Logs was the BEST tool I had as a raid leader to figure out what the hell happened. I didn't give two figs about recount. Recount was just for that those idiots that liked to boast about how high their damage/heals were. Even if they were completely screwing up every other aspect of the fight... which I *COULD* see with parses.

 

And yes, I do need to see all 8/16 people's information if we get to a fight we're having issues with -- for hard/nightmare operations. Outside of that, no... I don't need to see your information because it's irrelevant. Easy is easy and you can do whatever you want in easy mode stuff. But if you come to one of my raids for hardmode or nightmare, I damn well do need to be able to pick apart data to find the root cause of whatever problem we're ramming our head into a wall over. And no, I do not care about your individual DPS unless it's so pathetically low that I need to replace you.

 

Right now, I run an 8 man group and can visually see when people do SOME of the stupid stuff. We have more disagreements over what person A thinks happened vs. person B than any other issue. Parses will help that. That it's not group wide for operations will be frustrating but I'll deal with it.

 

But in NO WAY do I condone or encourage them to put stupid recount in this game. That just leads to nitwits thinking they're important when they aren't... and trying to make others feel bad when their number isn't as high as someone elses. High numbers does not always equal playing optimally. However parses DO show you that information. I can see who's being the team player vs. the idiot that just tunnels the boss with no regard for anything other than his/her high dps/heal number at the end.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

To satisfy the DPS whores though, a damage meter at the end of a boss fight somewhat similar to warzone information would be an ok thing with me. Not linkable. You see it and then once you close it, it's gone. Not during combat. After.

 

And to those of you that are all about the "well *I* use recount to help others..."

 

you're attempting to use that to make a point that's very counter to what a vast majority of us have seen actually taking place in these types of games. You may be that 1 in a million super nice guy that DOES do that... but there are lots more out there that use it as a tool to humiliate and belittle others.

 

I spent hours and hours going over parses in wow to figure out how to help my group get better. Most people put fingers in their ears when you tell them anything counter to how they want to do things when their numbers are high. Recount is a menace to any game that implements it.

 

just my .02 take it for what you will

Edited March 6, 2012 by eudaemonea

[Darth_Grissom]

Sooooooooo happy to hear this.

 

Glad they didnt take the low end road and allow others to dictate who they can and can not take in Ops/Flashpoints just because their dps, is a little lower then so and so.

[Sernon]

Hmm, I hope this holds true, until the moon turns blue. Preferably!

 

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